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The great AFK debate (ft. KSing & Auto-Casting)


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#51 Scuba

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 08:26 PM

@Benderama

 

Since you mention the issue of multi clienting infinite afk characters in your example and your avatar says you've been playing since 2003, you should recall a time in which multi clienting was actually not allowed or possible for most players. As the basic Ragnarok exe did not have the feature until ~2007.

 

Do you think that player feedback / requests had anything to do with it?

 

I may be missing the take away from your post, but it seems like you are saying the conversation is perhaps interesting but also pointless to have. Not sure if it is just general cynicism or if you believe that nothing can / should be done. I don't think you are saying the conversation is not worth having, as you have contributed to it the most so far. It seems to me like you are more in the first camp for unrestricted afk / auto if I were to boil everything down.

 

Its just confusing because the ethical / morality principles you outlined for your own personal conduct seem to contradict what you would favor for being allowable. As in, just because you can run 30 clients and reflect on all of them doesn't mean you should. By that token, wouldn't you say that it would be reasonable to suggest that a line be drawn for what is allowable and what is not for the good of all players?


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#52 gaurus

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 11:51 PM

Well in the end, AFK leveling still gonna exist. What use to debate when I fully know that it will still be allowed because people already spend money on it. As for KS ruling its already been clarify in the Camp statement. 

 

After spawn problem is tackled, AFK levelers benefit tremendously too. I could even foresee the future where everywhere in the map is filled with AFK-leveler like Orc Dungeon 2 and I guess it already happening. Whether it just 4 second late to turn in bounty board or 4 minutes late or 40 minutes late, AFK leveling still gonna be detrimental experience for active leveler, and like many things in RO, just have to suck it up like seeing bots running 24/7 or macro-ed WL casting JF non stop. Only that this time the act have no bad repercussion because WP have allowed it to happen, accidentally or not.


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#53 HugPorings

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 01:56 AM

dito


Edited by HugPorings, 13 July 2019 - 03:07 AM.

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#54 PervySageMarty

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 12:33 AM

Just increase the spawn rates on every map in this game by 10x normal amount already.
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#55 Hakobune

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 01:43 PM

Recently while I was farming monster tokens in the sunken ship I noticed something interesting about one particular reflect leveler.

 

3xp4udg.jpg

 

 

Do you see it? Let's zoom in.

 

93L2D38.png

 

Not yet? Enhance!

 

0uKl9Xa.png

 

Could that be... A Zeny Knife?

 

 

 

Not sure if the idea of using a Zeny knife while reflecting leveling is common place (honestly I forget this weapon exist until I see that sprite on rare occasions) and I'm not sure how profitable it actually is. I don't really imagine it to be amazingly so but now it seems not only can one accumulate experience and items without interacting with the game, they can also generate zeny without interacting with the game as well. I'm well aware that auto greeding also does this, but auto greeding is limited by character weight and available item slots where as this is only limited by the zeny cap. While the zeny generated in this way may not be significant (Perhaps someone can math it out and figure how much zeny can be generated within a certain time frame with this method) but it's still zeny generated from technically nothing.


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#56 Wolfen

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 02:32 PM

Recently while I was farming monster tokens in the sunken ship I noticed something interesting about one particular reflect leveler.

 

3xp4udg.jpg

 

 

Do you see it? Let's zoom in.

 

93L2D38.png

 

Not yet? Enhance!

 

0uKl9Xa.png

 

Could that be... A Zeny Knife?

 

 

 

Not sure if the idea of using a Zeny knife while reflecting leveling is common place (honestly I forget this weapon exist until I see that sprite on rare occasions) and I'm not sure how profitable it actually is. I don't really imagine it to be amazingly so but now it seems not only can one accumulate experience and items without interacting with the game, they can also generate zeny without interacting with the game as well. I'm well aware that auto greeding also does this, but auto greeding is limited by character weight and available item slots where as this is only limited by the zeny cap. While the zeny generated in this way may not be significant (Perhaps someone can math it out and figure how much zeny can be generated within a certain time frame with this method) but it's still zeny generated from technically nothing.

 

i can bet that magnolia hat is carded with a cramp card so for simplicity lets use averages:

 

cramp card.- 1% chance to get 1-500 zeny per kill, so thats 1% for an average of 250z, so thats around 2.5 zeny per kill

zeny knife.- 40% to get 1-100 zeny per kill, 40% chance to get 50z, so thats around 20z per kill.

 

in other words that guy is getting 22.5z per monster reflect killed,

 

i dont know what the average kill time is, so im guessing it needs to kill over 100,000 monsters for it to actually put some numbers, wich in afk terms im guessing it would take days

 


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#57 hashtagplus4

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 03:06 PM

imo there's nothing wrong with afk leveling. I think the problem is with TI and the repeatable bounty board quest. I've always thought it's a bad idea. What's the point of having so many fields and dungeons if in the end people will just spend most of their leveling time in TI and one or two BB map. They should delete TI. Make bounty board available for all monsters, increase the exp reward (per monster count) to be the same as TI (or more), and give each bounty a 1 day cooldown. imo the exp reward should be at least triple the monster's exp. This'll even out people's progress since each bounty has a 1 day cooldown and normal grinding exp is worth much less without the bounty This will also incentivise people to explore the RO world again, and spread the population. AFK levelers won't be a problem anymore since no map will be too crowded and no one stays in one map for long. They can give vip account free teleport service to each monster's location, and make each giant flywing tradable to make partying easier.  sry kinda off topic.


Edited by hashtagplus4, 17 July 2019 - 03:09 PM.

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#58 SrRinio

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 03:15 PM

i can bet that magnolia hat is carded with a cramp card so for simplicity lets use averages:

 

cramp card.- 1% chance to get 1-500 zeny per kill, so thats 1% for an average of 250z, so thats around 2.5 zeny per kill

zeny knife.- 40% to get 1-100 zeny per kill, 40% chance to get 50z, so thats around 20z per kill.

 

in other words that guy is getting 22.5z per monster reflect killed,

 

i dont know what the average kill time is, so im guessing it needs to kill over 100,000 monsters for it to actually put some numbers, wich in afk terms im guessing it would take days

 

Maybe, just maybe, these effects will be added, and will be 41% chance to get 1-600 or 500 of zeny per kill, so its 123z or 102,5z per kill


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#59 Erlak

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 03:42 PM

imo there's nothing wrong with afk leveling. I think the problem is with TI and the repeatable bounty board quest. I've always thought it's a bad idea. What's the point of having so many fields and dungeons if in the end people will just spend most of their leveling time in TI and one or two BB map. They should delete TI. Make bounty board available for all monsters, increase the exp reward (per monster count) to be the same as TI (or more), and give each bounty a 1 day cooldown. imo the exp reward should be at least triple the monster's exp. This'll even out people's progress since each bounty has a 1 day cooldown and normal grinding exp is worth much less without the bounty This will also incentivise people to explore the RO world again, and spread the population. AFK levelers won't be a problem anymore since no map will be too crowded and no one stays in one map for long. They can give vip account free teleport service to each monster's location, and make each giant flywing tradable to make partying easier.  sry kinda off topic.

 

 

let me see if I understand, you do not like players to spend hours leveling on specific maps "TI and maps with BB" but you accept that players pass days leveling AFK without even playing the game, is that right?

because if it is, it does not make sense


Edited by Erlak, 17 July 2019 - 03:43 PM.

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#60 CKDD

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 03:43 PM

Recently while I was farming monster tokens in the sunken ship I noticed something interesting about one particular reflect leveler.
 
3xp4udg.jpg
 
 
Do you see it? Let's zoom in.
 
93L2D38.png
 
Not yet? Enhance!
 
0uKl9Xa.png
 
Could that be... A Zeny Knife?
 
 
 
Not sure if the idea of using a Zeny knife while reflecting leveling is common place (honestly I forget this weapon exist until I see that sprite on rare occasions) and I'm not sure how profitable it actually is. I don't really imagine it to be amazingly so but now it seems not only can one accumulate experience and items without interacting with the game, they can also generate zeny without interacting with the game as well. I'm well aware that auto greeding also does this, but auto greeding is limited by character weight and available item slots where as this is only limited by the zeny cap. While the zeny generated in this way may not be significant (Perhaps someone can math it out and figure how much zeny can be generated within a certain time frame with this method) but it's still zeny generated from technically nothing.

  

i can bet that magnolia hat is carded with a cramp card so for simplicity lets use averages:
 
cramp card.- 1% chance to get 1-500 zeny per kill, so thats 1% for an average of 250z, so thats around 2.5 zeny per kill
zeny knife.- 40% to get 1-100 zeny per kill, 40% chance to get 50z, so thats around 20z per kill.
 
in other words that guy is getting 22.5z per monster reflect killed,
 
i dont know what the average kill time is, so im guessing it needs to kill over 100,000 monsters for it to actually put some numbers, wich in afk terms im guessing it would take days

  

Maybe, just maybe, these effects will be added, and will be 41% chance to get 1-600 or 500 of zeny per kill, so its 123z or 102,5z per kill


1 month afk = 7 million zeny
Not worth the electricity bills
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#61 Ashuckel

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 03:43 PM

it's not additive, and the zeny obtained feels weighted, because you geat a really sh!t amount per kill most of the time.

the amount of money you get on average even using all of these possible items is laughably low. 

 


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#62 Hakobune

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 12:30 AM

i can bet that magnolia hat is carded with a cramp card so for simplicity lets use averages:

 

cramp card.- 1% chance to get 1-500 zeny per kill, so thats 1% for an average of 250z, so thats around 2.5 zeny per kill

zeny knife.- 40% to get 1-100 zeny per kill, 40% chance to get 50z, so thats around 20z per kill.

 

in other words that guy is getting 22.5z per monster reflect killed,

 

i dont know what the average kill time is, so im guessing it needs to kill over 100,000 monsters for it to actually put some numbers, wich in afk terms im guessing it would take days

 

 

I didn't even consider the possibility of a cramp card, much like the zeny knife itself it's an item I tend to forget about.

 

It seems AFK zeny generation doesn't seem to be able to generate amounts of zeny worth being concerned about which is a relief.


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#63 hashtagplus4

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 06:51 AM

let me see if I understand, you do not like players to spend hours leveling on specific maps "TI and maps with BB" but you accept that players pass days leveling AFK without even playing the game, is that right?

because if it is, it does not make sense

 

Yep i want people to spend hours leveling on various maps instead of only one or two maps which i think is what made afk leveling a more "serious" problem as it affects more players than it normally would if leveling spots are more spread out. Here's what i suggested to incentivise that (with extra details). (sry if it still doesn't make sense. my english isn't the best and i'm not very smart, i can't even count lol)

 

1) remove TI

 

3) make bounty board available for all monsters, so each level range (1-20,21-40,41-60,...) will have 20+ monsters. For convenience, divide the boards by level range only (currently it's by level range+location) and put copies of them in different cities.

 

4) increase the exp reward (per kill count) to be triple than TI. So each bounty reward (150 monsters) will give 450 monsters worth of exp. To prevent abuse, decrease reward to 50% x total monsters exp if you're above level range.

 

2) add 1 day cooldown for each bounty quest (given after turning in the quest).

 

5) give VIP account free teleport service to each monster's location

 

Those will hopefully encourage players to do different bounty quests instead of grinding in one place for a long period of time. No map will be too crowded. It'll highly affect afk leveling as it relies heavily on the crowdedness of the map. And if someone decides to afk level, normal players won't be much affected by it since they'll only spend 150-kill-counts worth of time per map.

 

It will also help introduce RO world to players.

 

I just don't think we can remove afk leveling from the game unless we remove autocast altogether.

 

tl;dr i'm a stupid baboon


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#64 Sigma1

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 05:22 AM

KRO give you the solution now.

Reflect dmg will no longer proc auto spell. :heh:

 

JWW0WMO9UY68PDB2LR96.gif


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#65 Ashuckel

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 05:31 AM

it's not a solution, they just murdered an entire playstyle.


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#66 mikkotinamide

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 05:59 AM

players pass days leveling AFK without even playing the game

 

do you even know what an mmorpg is


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#67 folkvangr

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 05:59 AM

cant they just disable reflect ? 


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#68 mildcontempt

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 06:54 AM

kRO, the k stands for "killing fun" apparently.

 

The single greatest strength of RO, to me, is how it lets you play a variety of different builds that can do very unique and atypical things for a game, let a lone an MMO.

 

Oh well. 


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#69 nyyaan

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 11:30 AM

KRO give you the solution now.
Reflect dmg will no longer proc auto spell. :heh:

JWW0WMO9UY68PDB2LR96.gif


Auto AFK folks who keep bugging monsters won’t like this solution.

Though, if iRO doesn’t tiring in this update, this solution is irrelevant. iRO is just being iRO lol
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#70 VanishingPoint

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 04:04 PM

There's no need to debate this. They already released OCP items that allowed these. People have already spent money to acquire these items. Nerfing these items or disabling them will keave a sour taste in people's mouth. The logical thing to do here is sweep these issues under the big rug.
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#71 CaptainSunbear

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 05:32 PM

KRO give you the solution now.

Reflect dmg will no longer proc auto spell. :heh:

 

JWW0WMO9UY68PDB2LR96.gif

Consider the following:
IF and only IF this was a fix for the iRO's AFK leveling solution. Then I will have to ask "Did they hear people on iRO saying this was an issue?" or "did they decide to make this change based on skill interactions in kRO and something they wanted to do for kRO itself?"

I noticed that a lot of the official servers just play differently in comparison to each other even in Renewal.

 

I stand neutral in all this, I just wanted to point out that we do not know if this was intended for iRO or just for kRO itself (not that they have this autocast madness on AFK builds, unless someone can show this kind of information then yeah, but that's another story)

Also, it isn't like iRO gets updates from kRO relatively quick, which makes me doubt that the intended purpose was to fix the iRO Auto-cast leveling issue right away.

 

Do you guys see where I am going with this?

 

again, anyone who has it and uses it will lose the ability to just AFK level but things like Lunar Rainbow and the Book of the Sun God[4] and those high DEF gears could still be used. You just gotta rely more on the meteor storm and attacking one target at a time (to proc MS meaning we orienting the build towards Meteor Storm proc) and get some ASPD to go with it. If you're taking 1 damage from monsters, what's taking a little bit more to have more aspd just to proc that meteor storm? you still won't die easily if you reduce the vast majority of the neutral damage incoming.

The game changes, the game progresses and those changes affect the stuff that was in the past. But again, this is kRO doing a kRO patch, not saying "okay guys we disabled the proc auto spell because you guys asked for it."
In the given case that the sentence above is the actual reason, then idk what to say  :p_omg:

 

(again I am neutral on all this, this is just an observation)


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#72 Sigma1

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 05:50 PM

No. That's just a my own joke. They don't fix for IRO.
They fix an exploitation of Soul Reaper who gain infinite Soul Energy via reflect dmg from Mad Bunny.
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#73 Ashuckel

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 05:53 PM

  • Do changes to one skill to disable it's exploit

 

  • Change fundamental game mechanics that will affect and kill another multitude of items, builds, interactions, skills, playstyles

     

Guess wich kRO picks


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#74 SeiginoYuusha

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 06:13 PM

Its time to part ways with kRO, and raise your jolly Roger Online (jRO) flags :V


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#75 Sigma1

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 06:21 PM

Hmm. I rethink again.
I guess KRO just change dmg type of reflect dmg from "normal attack" to "skill attack" to prevent auto-spell.
So this won't solve Soul Reaper exploitation at all.
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