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VIP drop chance.


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#1 Shane

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 06:38 PM

So I had a suspicion last night after hunting anolians for a few hours that drops were indeed nerfed since the VIP patch. I voiced my concern to GMs in several topics on this forum and this was the response given:

As for Bubble Gums they are 2 seperate methods so this problem won't exist.
Gum checks multiple times to see if an item drops, VIP should be multiplying the actual drop chance.


So, taking that information, I decided to do a test. Given that certain monsters drop items at 90%, under the old system (and supposedly under the new VIP system) multiplying that by 150% should bump it up to 135%. Essentially, every time I kill a monster that has a 90% drop on a VIP account, I should get that drop.

So I set out to find a monster that has 90% drop that I don't have drop penalty on. I chose anacondaq because I have a level 100 character. For reference Anacondaq is a level 100 monster and drops venom canine 90% of the time. References: http://db.irowiki.or...ster-info/1030/ http://rode-r.doddle...nster/view/1030

In order to completely eliminate any doubt of whether drop penalty was interfering or not, the monster level and character level are exactly the same. Yet you can see in the following screenshot that I did not get a venom canine from killing an anacondaq. This happened about one in every 20 kills.

Posted Image

As you can see from this next screenshot as well as the buffs on the right side of the screen, this account does indeed have VIP status.

Posted Image

Anyone is welcome to go test this for themselves. I do not know how VIP drop bonus is implemented, but it seems clear to me that it is not simply multiplying the base rate by 50%, which is how it worked previously on Ymir, and which was what Heimdallr stated it to be in the maintenance thread. Without knowing how the drop rate is actually applied, we can't say for certain that it is not affecting other monsters that do not have 90% drops. I personally feel that it is, considering my lower hauls last night.

If anyone else has anything to add here, please do. GMs, please fix this.
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#2 brokenguy

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 06:53 PM

confirmed with mandragora as well.
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#3 Roman

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 06:32 AM

I was under the impression that there was a cap on how high the drop rate can get...
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#4 brokenguy

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 06:34 AM

I was under the impression that there was a cap on how high the drop rate can get...


That's with gum. With VIP it "should" reach 100% drop rate.
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#5 IronFist

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 07:09 AM

have you considered your level with these drop rates?
http://rode-r.doddle...om/viewpage/d/3
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#6 BlackPotato

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 07:20 AM

have you considered your level with these drop rates?
http://rode-r.doddle...om/viewpage/d/3


since she is level 100 with a 100 level monster i would say yes. the drops are not working as intended with vip.
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#7 DrAzzy

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 07:33 AM

That's with gum. With VIP it "should" reach 100% drop rate.


VIP bonus appears to be a gum-type bonus, which would of course finally disprove the theory (which, after everyone (including myself) believed it for years, was recently renounced by Doddler in favor of a "flat multiplier capped at 90%" model) that bubble gum gives "multiple chances" for an item to drop (because you can't have 50% of a chance).

If it's true that the VIP bonus is a gum-type bonus, and the multiple chances theory is incorrect, then gum would need the same treatment as manuals got, to correct VIP awards - and that still wouldn't get items' drop rate past 90%. This is most relevant, of course, to endless tower.
On the other hand, it would result in higher rates for VIP players effected by the drop penalty.

Edited by DrAzzy, 08 April 2011 - 07:35 AM.

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#8 brokenguy

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 09:54 AM

huh? In coding wise, you can set it to have an extra 50% chance roll. Suppose the roll is 0 - 99 and each number in there stand for drop or fail. Just set another roll and do it from 0 - 199, anything after 99 is fail. This in turn create an extra 50% chance for a roll but anyways all gum are 100% or 200% drop which is an extra roll. I do not know how the gum work, might be a good time to test right now. Since 90% and popping HE or gum would yield 90% according to the theory. Anyways back to topic.

It appears that you are right that VIP coding seems to be turned into Battle Manual and Gum type of coding. Which my original thought was half right..http://forums.warpportal.com/index.php?/topic/32363-april-7-normal-maintenance-notes/page__st__25
Now the gum drop rate is even worse. >.<
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#9 Nomad4Lyfe

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 10:24 AM

If you're not getting the drop every 1 in 20, then that means you're getting it 95% of the time over 90%. AKA you have a 50% higher chance to not fail... 10% fail dropped in half to 5%.
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#10 brokenguy

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 10:39 AM

If you're not getting the drop every 1 in 20, then that means you're getting it 95% of the time over 90%. AKA you have a 50% higher chance to not fail... 10% fail dropped in half to 5%.


you mean
Base = 90%
VIP = 90% + 90(.5)% = 10% * 65% = .1 * .65 = .065 chance to fail = 93.5% chance to drop.
first roll VIP roll - Fail%

Re-roll system just like gum system.
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#11 Shane

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 01:47 PM

If you're not getting the drop every 1 in 20, then that means you're getting it 95% of the time over 90%. AKA you have a 50% higher chance to not fail... 10% fail dropped in half to 5%.


Right, which is exactly my point. Heim said it was like Ymir was previously: the base rate is multiplied by 1.5x for VIP users, that it was different than gum. Clearly that is not the case here.

I just want to have the same rates as I did before f2p if I am paying for the game. I am unsatisfied with paying and receiving less than I had before.

Edited by Shane, 08 April 2011 - 01:51 PM.

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#12 Shane

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 11:42 AM

After nearly 3 weeks I feel this ticket is finally resolve. I received a GM response today that I am happy with:

Thank you for requesting our support.

We apologize for the delay in our response.

I have spoken with our QA and production team in regards to this issue and they are aware that the drop rates from the previous premium system and the current VIP system are drastically different. They have also told me that the drop rate for VIP users are higher than that of non-VIP users though. We do understand your concern over this drop in rate from the previous system, but please understand that this new VIP service is completely different that the previous premium system on the backend, and it does reflect it on the drop ratees.

The QA and production team are looking into ways to make this better however. Please understand that making such fixes will take them a great deal of time to fix. We do ask you for your patience at this in regards to this matter.

If you have any other questions please feel free to contact us again.


They know the rates are different and hopefully they will look into ways of adjusting it to make it more like it was previously. I'm happy that they at least acknowledged my concerns and hope that a resolution comes to them quickly and easily. Cheers.
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#13 Fibrizzo

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 11:56 AM

After nearly 3 weeks I feel this ticket is finally resolve. I received a GM response today that I am happy with:

blah, blah, blah~


They know the rates are different and hopefully they will look into ways of adjusting it to make it more like it was previously. I'm happy that they at least acknowledged my concerns and hope that a resolution comes to them quickly and easily. Cheers.

Did you realize the answer says nothing? xD
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#14 Shane

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 12:06 PM

Did you realize the answer says nothing? xD


On the contrary, the answers says they know it is an issue. Previously all the responses I received were akin to "working as intended". This is a step in the right direction. They know there is a problem and they will work on it when they are able to. That's really all I can ask for.
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#15 iCare

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 12:31 PM

Ok, :) VIP status then..
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#16 geniewinie

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 01:46 PM

:)
come on guys. everyone keeps on missing some info the author had given.

-VIP isn't a gum-type bonus, it's simply a type of subscription. duh.
-VIP drop bonus can stack with bubble gum
-dropping rate is really F***ed up. because if they multiply 150%(VIP) by 50% it will go down instead of go up. USE CALCULATOR. 1.5*.5=.75 = 75% (rather than just change the drop rate to 225% whenever under the bubble gum influence).
- I think that their formula is f***ed and not realized that it was a mistake, or there might be something fishy about this sorta thing. we might be getting ripped off the whole damn time.

NO OFFENSE GMs jst saying my opinion or statement, watever this is.

Edited by geniewinie, 26 April 2011 - 01:48 PM.

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#17 Pelendran

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 04:12 PM

I would think to make the calculation work, they would need to change 1.5x * .5x = y, to something like 1.5x +.5(1.5x) = y to make it work correctly. For example, if the drop rate was 50%, then 1.5x would be 75%. To add a multiplicitave .5x, would as genie has said, be wrong due to the way math works, and instead you'd need to ADD whatever the result the multiplication would have added. In this example, would be 32.5%, which puts it well over 100% as 75 +32.5 = 107.5.

Either way, Gums arent an actual .5x increase from what I thought has been said many times, and its supposed to be a second roll at getting the item, essentially being a 1.5x item drop rate rolled twice.
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#18 BlackPotato

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 04:43 PM

the drop rates suck ass since the VIP went into effect. its NOT anywhere near what it was before the vip went into effect. its bull and the gms havent done anything about it
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#19 Heimdallr

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 04:46 PM

Lets ignore what is "supposed" at this point and start over.

The VIP system does enhance the rate of gaining items from monsters. It does do this in a different way than the VIP server method we had prior, and infact it is impossible for us to do so. I'll try to explain why so you understand as I understand it.

1. VIP server. Monster dies. Server rolls dice, if appropriate value is on the dice then you get the item.
We manually made the "appropriate value" for those dice higher on the VIP server.
BubbleGum simply asks the server to roll the dice again if the result is a negative.

2. VIP account. Monster dies Server rolls dice, if appropriate value is on the dice you get the item.
Servers are all on "default" values.
The VIP system does not come into the equation until after the monster is already dead (so the appropriate values can't be manipulated)
From tests, the VIP and bubblegum both add "rerolls" to the dice, but doesn't actually change the value that is a success.

Best I can say is that the VIP system is better than not having VIP. Even if you have bubblegum active it is better. We will see about modifying the Bubblegum to give "extra" effect when used by a VIP account, but I know that it won't be 100% accurate compared with before.
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#20 Viri

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 04:57 PM

Lets ignore what is "supposed" at this point and start over.

The VIP system does enhance the rate of gaining items from monsters. It does do this in a different way than the VIP server method we had prior, and infact it is impossible for us to do so. I'll try to explain why so you understand as I understand it.

1. VIP server. Monster dies. Server rolls dice, if appropriate value is on the dice then you get the item.
We manually made the "appropriate value" for those dice higher on the VIP server.
BubbleGum simply asks the server to roll the dice again if the result is a negative.

2. VIP account. Monster dies Server rolls dice, if appropriate value is on the dice you get the item.
Servers are all on "default" values.
The VIP system does not come into the equation until after the monster is already dead (so the appropriate values can't be manipulated)
From tests, the VIP and bubblegum both add "rerolls" to the dice, but doesn't actually change the value that is a success.

Best I can say is that the VIP system is better than not having VIP. Even if you have bubblegum active it is better. We will see about modifying the Bubblegum to give "extra" effect when used by a VIP account, but I know that it won't be 100% accurate compared with before.


If it's really working as intended that is fine. If you're gonna "change" it in the near future better to save gums. Taking this as working as intended though???(which really is fine people are spoiled as hell anyway it'll just take some "getting used to")
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#21 akosinico

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 05:28 PM

There's no such thing as a constant drop on RO... *picks nose
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#22 brokenguy

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 06:53 PM

Lets ignore what is "supposed" at this point and start over.

The VIP system does enhance the rate of gaining items from monsters. It does do this in a different way than the VIP server method we had prior, and infact it is impossible for us to do so. I'll try to explain why so you understand as I understand it.

1. VIP server. Monster dies. Server rolls dice, if appropriate value is on the dice then you get the item.
We manually made the "appropriate value" for those dice higher on the VIP server.
BubbleGum simply asks the server to roll the dice again if the result is a negative.

2. VIP account. Monster dies Server rolls dice, if appropriate value is on the dice you get the item.
Servers are all on "default" values.
The VIP system does not come into the equation until after the monster is already dead (so the appropriate values can't be manipulated)
From tests, the VIP and bubblegum both add "rerolls" to the dice, but doesn't actually change the value that is a success.

Best I can say is that the VIP system is better than not having VIP. Even if you have bubblegum active it is better. We will see about modifying the Bubblegum to give "extra" effect when used by a VIP account, but I know that it won't be 100% accurate compared with before.


I suspected this already. As long as you bring the rate close to what it is before, we will be happy. Just feel ignored for a long time, since op posted about this and myself suspected gum doesn't work on top of VIP stated weeks along. Asking for someone to check it out yielded nothing. OOOO well, hope you fix it fast. It's going to be one hard math problem to figure out.
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#23 Sera

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 09:33 PM

*picks nose


Dude, that's gross, don't do that.
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#24 Shane

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 03:25 AM

If it's really working as intended that is fine. If you're gonna "change" it in the near future better to save gums. Taking this as working as intended though???(which really is fine people are spoiled as hell anyway it'll just take some "getting used to")


I just remember being told that if we bought a VIP subscription it would be the same as having VIP before. It is not, that's why I kept this ticket going until I finally got an answer I was happy with. The drop rate decrease really is noticable, especially if you hunt the same thing for several days. I'd be happy with a gum change like the manual change. I understand that it's a different system and it's impossible to make it exactly the same it was, but I do believe it is possible to make it close to the same by buffing gum with VIP since they are an additive effect now.
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#25 brokenguy

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 08:47 AM

I just remember being told that if we bought a VIP subscription it would be the same as having VIP before. It is not, that's why I kept this ticket going until I finally got an answer I was happy with. The drop rate decrease really is noticable, especially if you hunt the same thing for several days. I'd be happy with a gum change like the manual change. I understand that it's a different system and it's impossible to make it exactly the same it was, but I do believe it is possible to make it close to the same by buffing gum with VIP since they are an additive effect now.


Here's what the rate are now... unless they changed the Gum rate.

So here's a break down for a 10% drop item.
Old System: (before VIP)
Base: 15%
Gum: 27.75%
HE Gum: 38.5%


New System:
Base: 10%
VIP: 14.5%
Gum(w/VIP): 23%
HE Gum: 31%


So here's a break down for a 50% drop item.
Old System: (before VIP)
Base: 75%
Gum: 94%
HE Gum: 98.5%


New System:
Base: 50%
VIP: 62.5%
Gum(w/VIP): 81.25%
HE Gum: 90.625%



Does make a big different. Let check card drop rate :-p
So here's a break down for a .02% drop item.
Old System: (before VIP)
Base: .035%
Gum: .07%
HE Gum: .105%


New System:
Base: .02%
VIP: .03%
Gum(w/VIP): .05%
HE Gum: .07%


No wonder card isn't dropping for me as often >.<
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