58 replies to this topic

[OgamiItto]

It doesn't seem logical to me. Your carried weight shouldn't be reduced when you attach items. Items shouldn't be disappearing into oblivion because the "programmers" (and I'm using that term very loosely) were too lazy/stupid to handle error conditions. There will never be a confirmation for deleting items this way because they never anticipated that items could be lost. They just try to stuff the items forcibly into your inventory while assuming that their own code for doing so could never possibly fail. Except it can, and does... because they made it that way, and forgot about it.

I guess that part is true. It shouldn't be reduced until you click send. But as for the rest of it...
You're at maximum weight capacity.
You move items out of your inventory.
Your carried weight decreases.
You put more items in your inventory.
You're at maximum weight capacity again.
You try to put more items in your inventory, by closing the message.

Doesn't work.
The items can't go into your inventory. There's no room.
The items can't go back in the message. It no longer exists.
So 2 options. Either the items fall at your feet, or they disappear into the aether.

The former is less likely. You aren't picking the items up off the ground after all (that wouldn't work; you'd get an error and the items would stay where they were). It would have to be programmed specifically to do that in that situation. But someone else might find some slightly different way of losing items through the mail. So instead they fixed it by making it so you can't use both mail and storage at the same time. Unless, of course, you use what is essentially a hack (a method hack I'm talking about here, not a code or security hack) to get around the fix they've put in place.

I don't intend to be rude, and hope I don't come across sounding like it. You have my sincere sympathy on the loss of your items. But I don't understand why you'd expect to be able to put more items in your inventory when there's no room in your inventory, nor where you otherwise expect those items to go.

Maybe I'm just too programmer-minded. I see this as the same as when you have a big fence with signs saying "Danger! Hazardous area. Do Not Enter." and someone climbs over the fence, enters the area and gets hurt, and says they didn't see the sign. Granted, the sign is missing here, but there's still the big high fence.

[Fibrizzo]

You have to jump through hoops to get both open at the same time though, they blocked it from working normally you have to do a work around just to get both open in the first place. It's your fault imo

Then they shouldn't allow have both of them open. It's like when you are vending: you cannot open another's shop because you have currently your shop opened.

If the game allows to have mail and storage opened at same time and there is an error with the system... it's your fault? The game is allowing you have both windows opened so the game needs a fix to prevent that bug.

C'mon, don't make me think on serious things. I love to troll <3

[Viri]

What you don't understand is you already have to do something silly to get both windows open at the same time. It's clearly not intended

Read

P.S. At least one person is going to ask about this, so... the trick to opening mail and storage at the same time is to click on the mailbox NPC between the time you click "Close" on the Kafra dialog and the time the storage window opens.

It's his own fault for doing this intentionally and then screwing it up. If you're gonna do a workaround to something built in don't complain when it backfires.

[Fibrizzo]

What you don't understand is you already have to do something silly to get both windows open at the same time. It's clearly not intended

Read

P.S. At least one person is going to ask about this, so... the trick to opening mail and storage at the same time is to click on the mailbox NPC between the time you click "Close" on the Kafra dialog and the time the storage window opens.

It's his own fault for doing this intentionally and then screwing it up. If you're gonna do a workaround to something built in don't complain when it backfires.

Oh, then I missunderstood all this.

Ninja h4x0rs!!! hahaha

Edited by Fibrizzo, 04 May 2011 - 04:00 AM.

[Kadnya]

What you don't understand is you already have to do something silly to get both windows open at the same time. It's clearly not intended

Read

P.S. At least one person is going to ask about this, so... the trick to opening mail and storage at the same time is to click on the mailbox NPC between the time you click "Close" on the Kafra dialog and the time the storage window opens.

It's his own fault for doing this intentionally and then screwing it up. If you're gonna do a workaround to something built in don't complain when it backfires.

But you don't have to do anything silly to open mail and storage at the same time!. I actually didn't know opening mail and storage at the same time wasn't possible, because I never use the mail box when sending messages. Using your friend list to mail is much more convenient, and that method isn't blocked at all.

I usually open the mail box while inside storage when mailing a lot of gear from one chara to another, or when mailing heavy things, because

pick item->click friendlist->send

is a lot faster than

open kafra->pickup item->close kafra->open mailbox-> send->close mailbox-> openkafra again-> repeat

It is possible to fall to this bug without knowing about it. Would it still be your fault if by using the most convenient method that is perfectly allowed you lost something because of poor game design?

The real fix would be changing the part where your weight is removed before sending the message. It would be probably moving one or two lines of code above, and maintain the ability to mail with storage open. Maybe you could even enable using the mail boxes with kafra open, since there wouldn't be a problem with having both open anymore.

Edited by Kadnya, 04 May 2011 - 05:03 AM.

[Viri]

Then they're just gonna remove the ability to send mail without the mailbox, guaranteed. It's the simplest "fix" and I'd really rather not see that happen.

[renouille]

There is a distressing lack of critical thinking here. I don't mind if you disagree with me, but you should at least try to get your facts straight.

"You glitched the game and lost your items as a result. Therefore you deserved it."

False. I did not lose items as a consequence of using any glitch. You can send mail with storage open simply by clicking the "Send Messages" button when your storage is open. This does not rely on any tricks or arcane knowledge. It does not bypass anything. The button is there for anyone to click at any time. It always works regardless of whether you're in storage or not. I've yet to see anyone claim that this method of sending mail is "silly" or "unintended" or "jumping through hoops."

"Fixing this particular bug would encourage 'abuse' of this 'glitch.'"

False. The trick is useful only for receiving mail. I am not aware of any bugs that can destroy items in that process. The bug that affected me (and the other person who reported it six months ago, and got the items restored) applies only to the process of sending mail. Sending and receiving are different. How would fixing a bug with sending mail make one more inclined to invoke a trick that only helps with receiving mail? Answer: it wouldn't!


The trick has nothing to do with the bug. It is a red herring. It is completely irrelevant. I could easily have said that, instead of clicking Inbox and then Write, I pressed Cancel followed by Send Messages. Where's your glitch now?

I guess that part is true. It shouldn't be reduced until you click send. But as for the rest of it...

Hi. My comments above were not directed at you, so please don't feel offended; I appreciate your candor. I'll go over this point by point.

You're at maximum weight capacity.
You move items out of your inventory.
Your carried weight decreases.
You put more items in your inventory.
You're at maximum weight capacity again.
You try to put more items in your inventory, by closing the message.

Doesn't work.

I'm already well aware of the mechanism by which items are lost.
As you've noted, carried weight should not be reduced until the mail is sent. This was part 1 of my proposed solution in the original irowiki thread. This alone would have prevented the loss of my items in this situation, since I would not have been able to put more items into my inventory (inadvertently, I should add).

The items can't go into your inventory. There's no room.
The items can't go back in the message. It no longer exists.
So 2 options. Either the items fall at your feet, or they disappear into the aether.
The former is less likely. You aren't picking the items up off the ground after all (that wouldn't work; you'd get an error and the items would stay where they were). It would have to be programmed specifically to do that in that situation. But someone else might find some slightly different way of losing items through the mail.

Part 2 of my proposed solution was to allow attachments from cancelled messages to go into your inventory even if they would cause you to exceed your weight limit. This prevents item loss in the case where the sender is already overweight prior to sending the message. Combined with part 1, it could not be abused to carry more than you normally would because it would be impossible for you to put additional items into your inventory.

I would not recommend "Part 2" by itself since it could then be abused, but my point is that it's easy to control circumstances in such a way that it becomes an acceptable option.

So instead they fixed it by making it so you can't use both mail and storage at the same time.

Actually, there is no indication that they ever consciously intended to preclude concurrent mail and storage use. If they did, they would not have subsequently implemented a feature allowing mail to be sent at any time. In addition, the way that simultaneous storage and inbox use is normally prevented--disabling most uses of the mouse cursor when storage is open--isn't a measure designed especially for this problem, but rather a holdover from ancient times. I would consider that more of a fortuitous accident than a deliberate design choice. Incidentally, I'll reiterate that the game allows you to accept and complete trades even if you have a pending outgoing message.

Unless, of course, you use what is essentially a hack (a method hack I'm talking about here, not a code or security hack) to get around the fix they've put in place.

As I've mentioned several times, you can send mail while your storage is open without using any "tricks."

I don't intend to be rude, and hope I don't come across sounding like it. You have my sincere sympathy on the loss of your items. But I don't understand why you'd expect to be able to put more items in your inventory when there's no room in your inventory, nor where you otherwise expect those items to go.

I wasn't deliberately trying to exceed my weight limit. What actually happened was that when I tried to send one message, I missed the send button, because it was mostly obscured by an invisible portion of the chat window--the part between the tabs and the buttons (poor UI design). I didn't notice this because there is very little fanfare when you successfully send a message--just a short nondescript message in the chat window that's very easy to miss amidst the multitude of other messages, including earlier "mail sent" messages. (So I'll chalk that one up to poor UI design (again) and fatigue.) Then, when I got more items and tried to send the next message, it cancelled my incomplete one and the items poofed.

It was only after sending 30000 items, finding that the recipient had only gotten 22500, cross-checking my chat logs, drawing upon my knowledge of the bug from past investigation, and finally doing some tests to verify the regression that I was able to deduce what had transpired.

Maybe I'm just too programmer-minded. I see this as the same as when you have a big fence with signs saying "Danger! Hazardous area. Do Not Enter." and someone climbs over the fence, enters the area and gets hurt, and says they didn't see the sign. Granted, the sign is missing here, but there's still the big high fence.

Add that the fence turns invisible and incorporeal whenever anyone gets close to it, and you'd have a pretty good analogy.

Despite not being a programmer per se, I still end up doing a lot more programming than I'd like to. I know the kind of silly bugs I would never tolerate in my own work. I also know that it's not as easy to fix problems when you have to cut through so many layers of red tape. Even so, seeing the lengths to which they'll go to find excuses for doing nothing is quite simply depressing.

[Mischelle]

See, as ridiculous as it sounds, there is such a profession as "professional video game tester", a job for which an individual is paid to break recreational software.

Usually, a developer will hire people such as this to test their product before releasing it (or even going beta with it). The reason developers do it is because these testers will provide them with laundry lists of game elements and mechanics that do not work as intended. The developers will then go and make programming fixes to the problems they have been made aware of.

In this case, where the finished product can be picked over by the general playerbase and is found to have gaping holes, there is proof that the usual process has been partly truncated or perhaps entirely omitted. It is quite obvious that the developers are not acting on any sort of bug reports, demonstrated by the fact that the ever-persistent sprite position bugs (a glitch that even the most uninformed player is aware of) still exist. Rather than that though, we should wonder if the developers have bothered to alpha-test any of their updates at all?

The OP lost the items because of a game glitch, not through his own fault. The end users should not be responsible for making sure all the game's mechanics are glitch-free. As far as any game and it's mechanics goes, the rule is "if you can make it happen, it is intended".

[Viri]

Okay okay, lemme rephrase. Don't do something stupid where the simplest fix for them is just going to be "okay we will just remove it then". It could be argued that you probably aren't supposed to be able to send mail without a mailbox. I'd expect them to just take that out entirely.

[renouille]

Okay okay, lemme rephrase. Don't do something stupid where the simplest fix for them is just going to be "okay we will just remove it then". It could be argued that you probably aren't supposed to be able to send mail without a mailbox. I'd expect them to just take that out entirely.

1. I didn't do it on purpose; the accident resulted from a confluence of other factors in addition to the bug, most of which were related to UI design.
2. The simplest fix would be for them to reinstate the fix they had in place before. If they've done it once, why can't they do it again? I don't remember exactly what the fix was, but I think it was equivalent to the "part 1" I posted. This is the behavior you should expect after all because when you attach an item, your Weight: XXXX/XXXX in the status window doesn't change.
3. I can't imagine why they'd add a feature that doesn't do anything aside from letting you send mail without a mailbox... unless they wanted you to be able to send mail without a mailbox.

[Sera]

Disabling mail attachments makes the mail system completely useless.

RO sucked really badly when it was not in-game.

[Tigra]

Implement mailbox hat that lets you use the "mail" skill?



Would fix dungeon mailing...

Edited by Tigra, 04 May 2011 - 09:30 AM.

[DrAzzy]

I want to remove the send message with attachment option from non-mail box usage.

That would solve alot of our problems with the mail.

Nooooooooooooo...
I use this feature all the time. This is the sort of change that would make RO more awkward to play sufficient that it would make me play less.

My favorite was the strong smith that sent too much steel, person returned due to weight issues, in the mean time the smith had transed and had less strength than his normal smith build... items required GM attention to acquire.

That's a real work of genius...

Edited by DrAzzy, 04 May 2011 - 08:11 PM.

[Kadelia]

Mail system really should be updated with like an address book of sorts that can be added to by right-clicking on people and choosing add to address list. This would eliminate much oft he problem with name typos and whatnot.

As far as the weight issue, it should just store the message as a draft if you cancel it and part of the mail has an issue such as an item still attached. Recipients should be able to withdraw X items from the attachment at a time as they have weight for.

[Akin]

See, as ridiculous as it sounds, there is such a profession as "professional video game tester", a job for which an individual is paid to break recreational software.

Usually, a developer will hire people such as this to test their product before releasing it (or even going beta with it). The reason developers do it is because these testers will provide them with laundry lists of game elements and mechanics that do not work as intended. The developers will then go and make programming fixes to the problems they have been made aware of.

In this case, where the finished product can be picked over by the general playerbase and is found to have gaping holes, there is proof that the usual process has been partly truncated or perhaps entirely omitted. It is quite obvious that the developers are not acting on any sort of bug reports, demonstrated by the fact that the ever-persistent sprite position bugs (a glitch that even the most uninformed player is aware of) still exist. Rather than that though, we should wonder if the developers have bothered to alpha-test any of their updates at all?

The OP lost the items because of a game glitch, not through his own fault. The end users should not be responsible for making sure all the game's mechanics are glitch-free. As far as any game and it's mechanics goes, the rule is "if you can make it happen, it is intended".

Completely right. Unfortunately, in today's world of downloadable updates (PC, console, or mobile), companies tend to do minimal testing and pass that burden on to the end user. Closed and Open Beta Testing on MMOs are basically free, though far inferior, QA for the developer. It's even worse for us on iRO because we're getting a second hand, translated, game from Korea, and since Gravity LLC seems to be little more than a publisher, I doubt they even have adequate QA in house to test changes they make during localization. Much less anyone who can actually fix problems found by their client base (bug fixes like this issue would probably have to be requested of kRO).

[renouille]

I would not expect that case to be handled gracefully. At least it was only 750 slims, that's what, 4m? Not enough to get worked up over. Good to know that the mail system can lose items like that, though.

It was 7500 slims. Maybe that's not a lot to you, but some of us didn't benefit from the antelope horns racket aren't obscenely wealthy.

I use this feature all the time. IMO, if someone goes out of their way to bypass restrictions (which is what would be needed in order to trigger this bug), it should be their problem.

Sigh... please go back and read the numerous posts you skipped in which I explain how this is not the case.

-----

There's already an address book of sorts: the friends list. It's not perfect, but for the time being it's better than nothing.

I had some time to kill, so I made a few videos. The first one shows how someone lost items sending messages to me 6 months ago. The second one is basically how I lost my items. Notice that in both videos I didn't have to "go out of my way" to do anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0Beoh_Cn4E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTTw6TkAKrg

[Puppet]

dont abuse the system and dont do it if you know you gona lose something, As it is kRO and there develops look upon and say they do what?! they abuse that? iRO people have always abused the system and exploited anything they can. Stop Open Storage and mail at same there reason why they didnt want people doing that, For same reason they didnt want people open a shop and chat at same time.

And if people know about this and still do it there the ones to blame for there lose not gravity Besides we all know how things get fixed in iRO.

Edited by Puppet, 04 May 2011 - 02:00 PM.

[Kadnya]

dont abuse the system and dont do it if you know you gona lose something, As it is kRO and there develops look upon and say they do what?! they abuse that? iRO people have always abused the system and exploited anything they can. Stop Open Storage and mail at same there reason why they didnt want people doing that, For same reason they didnt want people open a shop and chat at same time.

And if people know about this and still do it there the ones to blame for there lose not gravity Besides we all know how things get fixed in iRO.

Once again:

You don't need to abuse anything in order to lose items. Watch the two videos above of your post for some examples.

Not fixing bugs and blaming mistakes on the user it's like...

"It's your fault your car crashed because everybody knows this model comes with brakes that just sometimes work"

Nupe, the correct fix it's not closing the street forever or deleting all cars. The correct fix it's making the brakes work.
The correct fix here is to make the mail work. Why is it so hard to understand @@?

Edited by Kadnya, 04 May 2011 - 02:32 PM.

[IronFist]

can this in fact duplicate items?

I like the story about the blacksmith who one day sold mini furnaces for a profit

Edited by IronFist, 04 May 2011 - 02:32 PM.

[Beata]

Sorry to say, but people are just too ignorant or don't read very well. Explain to me why the 'send messages' feature is MADE available anywhere through friend's list then if you say its an abuse.

[OgamiItto]

Not gonna quote...just refer to posts above...

Well, that's different from what you described in the original post. This is clearly a case of new features breaking old fixes. Although it has the same effect, it's a different issue from the one you initially described.

isn't a measure designed especially for this problem, but rather a holdover from ancient times

Really? I thought that was implemented during the last few years, when I wasn't playing. I'm sure I remember in the past being able to trade between my 2 chars who both had their storage open. Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe it's only accepting trades while storage is open that's been disabled.

But in any case, Heim seems to think otherwise. My guess is, he would know one way or the other.

I wasn't deliberately trying to exceed my weight limit.

Didn't mean to suggest you were...it was clearly accidental. My point was only on expecting any other outcome from doing so.

I'll agree with you on the user interface design issues though. I haven't encountered any major issues with them, but it's clear from the videos you posted. But it's also well-documented that fatigue can cause impairment, and impairment can have disastrous consequences. I know I've lost a few good items in other games due to dozing off while crafting or setting up shop/auction house sales.

[renouille]

can this in fact duplicate items?

I like the story about the blacksmith who one day sold mini furnaces for a profit

No, it's only useful for making items disappear without a trace and inventing new swear words.

Not gonna quote...just refer to posts above...

Well, that's different from what you described in the original post. This is clearly a case of new features breaking old fixes. Although it has the same effect, it's a different issue from the one you initially described.

The only difference is that I cancelled the message by going to the Write tab after first going to the Inbox tab. However, the bug is exactly the same. It doesn't matter how you cancel the message. The important thing is that you try to retrieve the attachment, even indirectly by (accidentally) cancelling the message or replacing it with another item, after going overweight. They fixed the bug 4-5 months ago, but it's broken again. There have been no new mail features in years.

Really? I thought that was implemented during the last few years, when I wasn't playing. I'm sure I remember in the past being able to trade between my 2 chars who both had their storage open. Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe it's only accepting trades while storage is open that's been disabled.

Not being able to trade while in storage is relatively new (~1 year), but isn't related to the mail system.

But in any case, Heim seems to think otherwise. My guess is, he would know one way or the other.

Whom are you going to trust, me or the one who didn't know what crimson rock was?

No doubt he believes what he said, but if he had thought about it further he would have realized what I and several others have been trying to say all along--that the "glitch" and the bug had absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Judging from the some of the other replies from those who obviously never read past the third post nor attempted to understand the situation, I'll admit that deflecting responsibility by blaming the victim might not have been such a bad move.

I'll agree with you on the user interface design issues though. I haven't encountered any major issues with them, but it's clear from the videos you posted. But it's also well-documented that fatigue can cause impairment, and impairment can have disastrous consequences. I know I've lost a few good items in other games due to dozing off while crafting or setting up shop/auction house sales.

I've sent at least tens of thousands of messages. This is the first time I've been bitten by this bug.

Hopefully it'll be the last!

Edited by renouille, 04 May 2011 - 04:40 PM.

[Ultimate]

There's already an address book of sorts: the friends list. It's not perfect, but for the time being it's better than nothing.

I had some time to kill, so I made a few videos. The first one shows how someone lost items sending messages to me 6 months ago. The second one is basically how I lost my items. Notice that in both videos I didn't have to "go out of my way" to do anything.

You didn't go out of your way to do anything except make videos after your screenshots explained the problem. Now if someone sends in a ticket and claims to have lost items, it can be verified by checking to see if they also didn't go out of their way to do it too - and then they can get helped.

[Ultimate]

No, it's only useful for making items disappear without a trace and inventing new swear words.

Like +7 Slotted Sunglasses with a White Lady card on them? I heard they can't hide forever - 2012 is just around the corner

[Cubical]

this is why i never use the mail system and never will