153 replies to this topic

[Lambor]

I'm unsure if this has openly been discussed somewhere on these forums, but I looked back a couple of days and I was unable to find any meaningful post/discussion.

I'm curious as to how the new rule works regarding the recovery of an item that isn't a God item when it was handed out off of a shared account.

My reason for asking is because my guild has several MVP carded gears (GTBs, Tao, Gloom, etc) and they get used fairly regularly. We hold them on the recaller account on a merchant and only people that have access to the recaller are able to access them an hand them out (usually about 4 people total, including myself).

With the recent rule change, it seems like...if a piece of gear goes missing from an account and the account was shared, the GMs can't guarantee that the item will be returned. So that puts me in a bit of a tricky situation because 1) I'm not around enough to hand out the MVP carded gear for use, and 2) I'm no longer allowed to let guildies use it?

I'm just curious as to how these rules are being enforced. Could I store the MVP items on a new account that only I have access to, but still trade them out to guildies for use? What happens if the person I'm letting use it trades it to somebody else and that new person runs off with it? Am I able to rely on the GMs to help me recover it or is it gone forever? I'm not talking about common gear like Cranial, MPs, Feather Berets, Royals, etc. I'm only concerned about MVP carded gear. The god items we can still pass all over the place because they are able to be recalled no matter what.

I'd just like some clarification though as to where passing items out has gone "too far", mostly to the point where the GMs won't intervene.

[CeruleanGamer]

Only lend gear to people you trust. If you get backstabbed, it's your own fault. period.

Edited by CeruleanGamer, 08 June 2011 - 10:49 AM.

[Corvus]

Things have been getting out of hand on our end as far as users no longer taking care of their own gear and lending it out to anyone expecting the GM team to return it. Now, you will need to take care of your gear, and only lend it out if you are prepared to lose it. I would suggest obtaining collateral to soften the blow in case it is lost.

Also, since you are sharing the recaller account, I feel obligated to warn you that if one of your 4 trusted individuals steals all the items from that account, we are most likely going to be unable to help you recover the items.

It has been requested that we look into the ability to name MVP carded items, much like we have named god items. At the moment, we are currently unable to do this. However, I do like the idea, and I am working to see how something like that could be implemented.

[Braska]

Whatabout if one of those trusted players gives out gears to guildies who don't have the account. Will they be returned if something were to happen?

[Charon]

Whatabout if one of those trusted players gives out gears to guildies who don't have the account. Will they be returned if something were to happen?

Why would it? It's the account owners fault.

[Braska]

Ok let me reprhase it then. What if the account owner who only has access to the account lends a piece of equipment out. What will be done if X person stole the item or simply doesn't want to return it

The policy change says that it's only for people who had access to the account, but would the GM team treat this issue as the issue above?

Edited by Braska, 08 June 2011 - 11:11 AM.

[Corvus]

Whatabout if one of those trusted players gives out gears to guildies who don't have the account. Will they be returned if something were to happen?

No, it is the registered user's responsibility. As they are sharing the account, any actions taken on the account are their responsibility. If they do not want to risk the items being taken, best bet is to change the password and not share the account.

[Corvus]

Ok let me reprhase it then. What if the account owner who only has access to the account lends a piece of equipment out. What will be done if X person stole the item or simply doesn't want to return it

The policy change says that it's only for people who had access to the account, but would the GM team treat this issue as the issue above?

There is no "lending" system in Ragnarok. You are trading the item to that person, and both of you have to click on two separate boxes to confirm the trade. You confirming that trade is confirming that you no longer want the item, and you want the other person to have it.

If you want the person to give you the item back 99.9% of the time, take collateral when you do the trade. Otherwise, you risk them not trading the item back to you.

[Braska]

Alright, thanks

[Lambor]

This is gonna taking scamming to a whole new level. lol.

I basically have a Tao, 2 GTBs, and a Gloom that I'm gonna have to use on my Genetic now. I could upset somebody, they'd never tell me, they'd ask for a piece of gear, I give them it, and it's gone forever.

[Lambor]

Corvus and/or any other GM,

Is there any way that the policy could possibly be changed to allow support on MVP carded gear and god items, but that's it? Many guilds have Taos and all and any greedy individual could finally view this as his chance to have his own personal MVP carded gear or whatever. The temptation to steal has now gone through the roof.

There are quite a few MVP carded gears floating around out there, but I feel like if you weeded out the "missing my +12 Pile Bunker" and all of that crap and only dealth with lost god items and MVP gears, things would be a lot easier on you guys and also a lot easier on us.

[CeruleanGamer]

Corvus and/or any other GM,

Is there any way that the policy could possibly be changed to allow support on MVP carded gear and god items, but that's it? Many guilds have Taos and all and any greedy individual could finally view this as his chance to have his own personal MVP carded gear or whatever. The temptation to steal has now gone through the roof.

There are quite a few MVP carded gears floating around out there, but I feel like if you weeded out the "missing my +12 Pile Bunker" and all of that crap and only dealth with lost god items and MVP gears, things would be a lot easier on you guys and also a lot easier on us.

I'm not sure if GMs even track transactions, do they? If they can't, people can just claim they lost an MVP carded gear or god item even though they don't own one.....

Edited by CeruleanGamer, 08 June 2011 - 11:43 AM.

[Corvus]

Actually, the MVP stuff takes much longer than the others, because people say "well, I provided the card" and someone else goes "well, I provided the item" and another goes "well, I was the one that actually killed the MVP that dropped the card" and another says "but I provided the supplies you used to kill the MVP" and another says "well, it wouldn't have died if I had not buffed you." So everyone is trying to get ownership of the item, and it creates a giant mess we have to sort out. Your best bet is to only trade items, even MVP items, for collateral, unless you are willing to lose them.

Like I said a few posts up, we are looking into a way where we can name the MVP items like we did with the god items, but right now if I say "sure, trade your MVP item to whoever you want and we will get it back to you" that puts no responsibility on you, and some people take that carelessness to epic levels. Right now, my team does not have the time to clean up issues caused by such carelessness, so we have to ask users to be responsible for their own items.

Also, CeruleanGamer, we do have logs. Just FYI

[Charon]

This is gonna taking scamming to a whole new level. lol.

I basically have a Tao, 2 GTBs, and a Gloom that I'm gonna have to use on my Genetic now. I could upset somebody, they'd never tell me, they'd ask for a piece of gear, I give them it, and it's gone forever.

Let them give you something they will want to have back later.

[Xellie]

Telling recallers to not share their account is idiotic.

Guilds are supposed to go without treasure if the recaller can't be present etc? What if the leader isn't about to WoE? What about opening okolnir for allies?

That goes against everything a guild is supposed to be, a team effort.

As for collateral, so I havea guild and that guildie wants to go to mvp or pvp. They say "hey Xellie can I use the GTB that the guild worked together to get for a few seconds?" and I say "no sorry, unless you can provide me with an item worth more than the work of multiple people, including yourself, then I'm afraid you can't use this item that you worked towards, because I have no assurance that should anything crazy happen that the rest of the guild won't lose their work too."

I'd expect the guildmember to tell me to F off, that's they're never helping me again and that he's gonna get his own goddamn gtb.

Edited by Xellie, 08 June 2011 - 12:06 PM.

[Braska]

If anything, i think it'll cause more tension in guild

Edited by Braska, 08 June 2011 - 12:07 PM.

[Lambor]

It's going to cause a lot of tension, yes. I understand where the GMs are coming from.

My guild, however, has clearly, straight-up single owner, MVP carded gear. Everything I've listed above is ours. They were acquired by the guild and are owned by the guild, the single owner of them being myself. No questions asked.

I'm now forced to say to my guildies "No, you can't use anything. They are mine!" It's gonna cause a lot of strain. I'm not trying to refute anything you're saying Corvus. I agree with your statements. I've made a web page that my guild uses to keep track of who has what item, when it was traded, and the previous/current holder. It makes it easy for me to get things back when they go missing because if it isn't where the web page says they are, then the person that didn't update it doesn't get them anymore =)

Is it really down to refusing my guild access to these items? The risk outweighs the benefit of keeping my guildies all 100% happy by using MVP items. I'll give them god items all day, but the bottom line is that...if somebody gets pissed at me while they have a GTB/Tao/whatever, they can say " you, Lamb" and run off with it. When really, they own no part in it whatsoever.

If anything was to be prioritized on the GM todo list, I'd place this at the top. My own personal opinion though. Because this has the potential of really ruining some people's days. lol.

Edited by Lambor, 08 June 2011 - 12:25 PM.

[jax5]

Like I said a few posts up, we are looking into a way where we can name the MVP items like we did with the god items, but right now if I say "sure, trade your MVP item to whoever you want and we will get it back to you" that puts no responsibility on you, and some people take that carelessness to epic levels. Right now, my team does not have the time to clean up issues caused by such carelessness, so we have to ask users to be responsible for their own items.

Corvus, I understand your position: he say/she say tickets are undesirably time consuming. However, the current solution does not seem ideal for players or for gravity. I'm glad that an MvP-naming idea is being looked into.

Without any changes, an eventually probable outcome: a WoE guild has some of their high value items (that are lent out) stolen. They know who stole, but that user spends some KP to buy their anonymity (name change). Or, possibly they sell those items for thousands of dollars (illegal, but not of unexpected occurrence). GMs point to current shared account policy and do not seriously attempt to get items back. Certain core guild leaders quit; guild disbands. Guild no longer buys a multitude of different WoE-supply items in regular frequency. Some people who PvM complain about how it's a little harder to make zeny. Some people who WoE give negative comments about decreased guild/player population.

[DeltaRay]

I am pretty sure its possible to name items as long as it isnt a gear that has 4 cards already equipped to them can GMs confirm?

[meli]

Without any changes, an eventually probable outcome: a WoE guild has some of their high value items (that are lent out) stolen. They know who stole, but that user spends some KP to buy their anonymity (name change). Or, possibly they sell those items for thousands of dollars (illegal, but not of unexpected occurrence). GMs point to current shared account policy and do not seriously attempt to get items back.

This x2.

So you are basically screwed if you're gentle enough to let someone use your gears, kthxbye. If you get your stuff stolen it's all your fault and there will be no punishment or effort to give it back to you?

Sorry but this will only entice people to do such things more and more (which would mean more tickets for you oops)unless you enforce some kind of system for it.

[Beata]

They should make a guild bank system that only selected members by the guild leader can access and use the items within a time frame set by the leader himself. Once the timer is up, the items are automatically recalled into the bank vault. Such items registered within the bank cannot be vended, dropped or sold to npc or even traded to another guild member not set by the leader during the same time frame.

[Lambor]

Probably more difficult than that. I imagine that they probably have a different table that's used for god items now. And that table would have a row that contains the owning character's ID.

To do the same for MVP carded gear, they'd probably have to change how those entries are stored and also add additional data so the owner can be remembered.

idk how they have things setup though. Just assumptions. Should be very similar to the work that was done for god item owners. I imagine the big hurdle is coming up with rules on what can be tagged with a name and how they'll handle naming items.

[Ardi]

I personally own/co-own MVP carded gear with another person and I used to have -ZERO- problem lending that item out to people I knew and trusted. Now that there is this new policy it basically leaves you with 1-be able to personally kick the persons ass to get the item back 2-have access to the persons account info (yup thats all the collateral some people have) 3-not lend gear out that will make my leveling/ET/MvPing easier. The GMs pretty much gave the go ahead for 90% of RO to run away with someones MvP items no consequences. Just either give support for MvP carded items and figure out the mess of ownership. I know I personally have screenshots of the agreement I made with the co-owner of how we share the item in question, the transactions for the item its compounded in, etcetc (I might be a bit paranoid lol).

[Lambor]

^.

And account infos don't even get you much anymore. I usually get guildie's account infos when I lend stuff out (mostly God Items), but they randomly change their infos and I get all paranoid like...O_O they're stealing!

I think a more realistic and welcoming approach would have been to address the issue before telling the community "no more!" Now that the rule is already in place, there seems to be little pressure to implement adding a name to the MVP items. The issue is fixed! Just don't hand anything out anymore.

Again, I really think that this should be near the #1 spot on the todo list. If a user wishes to add their name to an item, that means that the named item is technically owned by only that person. If there are shared MVP items that owners can't agree on a single-owned character name to tack onto the item, then they are both susceptible to the new rule that's in place (since adding a name shouldn't be required).

Then, the ticket system would be trimmed down a good bit by:

Did you add a name to the item (1 agreed owner?)
- Yes? (Restore item to that character)
- No? (We can't help you)

[Puppet]

There is no "lending" system in Ragnarok. You are trading the item to that person, and both of you have to click on two separate boxes to confirm the trade. You confirming that trade is confirming that you no longer want the item, and you want the other person to have it.

If you want the person to give you the item back 99.9% of the time, take collateral when you do the trade. Otherwise, you risk them not trading the item back to you.

bout freaking time gravity started enforcing this