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#1 Phish

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 09:53 AM

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Since we are long overdue for a class and skill balancing update, I have taken the time to write up some suggestions. This is pretty in depth and I have separated it into different categories, so those who are interested in reading hopefully won't get too intimidated. I apologize if this turned out to be overwhelming lengthy but I wanted to address all classes. Most of these are just slight tweaking of numbers, however there are a few new skills added to allow for more depth and diversity.

With that being said, the first thing I want to address is damage over time status effects.


 


Damage over time changes:


Spoiler


Soldier

Spoiler

Muse


Spoiler



Hawker


Spoiler



Dealer



Spoiler

 



Anyway, that about sums up all I have come up with. Let me know your feedback and any suggestions you may have as well, I hope this one doesn't get completely overlooked.

Edited by Phish, 10 August 2011 - 02:47 PM.

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#2 Zurn

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 09:59 AM

I like it phish! Looks big...
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#3 raindeth

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 10:26 AM

Clerics could use some of the support you mentioned. Now if only someone on development would read this... We've been overdue for a general skills rebalancing for a while
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#4 Dusk1PS

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 10:41 AM

I don't think Artis need a mute/aspd down(60%...that is a lot) on top of an aoe sleep, and two stun grenades. Even if the duration is two seconds and cd is 60. Since, they have access to all those new bombs on top of it(AoE sleep, AoE Stun).

That is insane crowd control with just one arti...imagine like 3-4...That's just endless sleep and stun. 100% guarenteed.

Poison modifier 1.0 vs 1.5 on burn? Burn should just be physicial dmg and poison be magic damage, same modifier.

Edited by Dusk1PS, 27 June 2011 - 10:44 AM.

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#5 Gojio

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 10:55 AM

Soldier looks great.
Clerics, well let's let them judge but it looks fine.
On the Mage part, I think you made a mistake with the new skill "Spiritual Empowerment", it's a passive but you gave it a duration!
Hawkers look fine, I'd love that Lethal Blow!
And Dealer looks fine too, but you mentioned a "Hypno Shot lvl 9" as a prerequisite for "Freezing Bullet", while Hypno maxes out at lvl 5.

Overall it looks wonderful, I hope GMs notice this and really consider it.

Edited by Gojio, 27 June 2011 - 10:58 AM.

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#6 Phish

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 10:59 AM

I don't think Artis need a mute/aspd down(60%...that is a lot) on top of an aoe sleep, and two stun grenades. Even if the duration is two seconds and cd is 60. Since, they have access to all those new bombs on top of it(AoE sleep, AoE Stun).

That is insane crowd control with just one arti...imagine like 3-4...That's just endless sleep and stun. 100% guarenteed.

Poison modifier 1.0 vs 1.5 on burn? Burn should just be physicial dmg and poison be magic damage, same modifier.


If you didn't get to it all of the grenades are on the same cooldown except for the ones that do not have status effects. That being said, they will have a more difficult time stun locking someone and especially considering if they do choose to throw a stun grenade they won't be able use any other ones with status effects. Plus the cooldown is increased on all bombs.

The duration on freezing bullet is 2 seconds, and it isn't more devastating than a 2 second stun. (You can at least run or melee during that time)

If Poison and Burns are to become magic or physical they would need to do damage based off of the opponents defenses.



Thanks Albe, I'll edit that.

Edited by Phish, 27 June 2011 - 11:39 AM.

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#7 DoubleRose

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 11:00 AM

There's good stuff here and there's bad.

Good-
Focus on crossbows
Cleric changes minus decloak
Additional buffs like on charge and evasion guard

Bad-
5th AOE for champ
Cleric Decloak


Potential-
Characters seem more powerful. I see a lot of decreasing points to max skills, this could give enough extra sp along with an increase to the level cap for 3rd classes in the way distant future.
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#8 Dusk1PS

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 11:09 AM

If you didn't get to it all of the grenades are on the same cooldown except for the ones that do not have status effects. That being said, they will have a more difficult time stun locking someone and especially considering if they do choose to throw a stun grenade they won't be able use any other ones with status effects. Plus the cooldown is increased on all bombs.

The duration on freezing bullet is 2 seconds, and it isn't more devastating than a 2 second stun. (You can at least run or melee during that time)

If Poison and Burns are to become magic or physical they would need to do damage based off of the opponents defense.



Thanks Albe, I'll edit that.


I did read it all the way to the bottom. 10 Sec CD. You get 5 Secs of AoE sleep. But you never specified how long the stun durations were on the grenades either(so I assume the 2 that is now). That'll be 3 seconds of CD if you allowed max sleep duration. Now tack in, 2 second mute/aspd down on Freezing Bullet(which btw, you can't melee since you're aspd downed or skill attack). That's 1 second of CD on re-starting/starting a new combo before your opponent ever gets a hit off.

This is not to discredit the great efforts you've taken the liberty to do. I'm just commenting this as a dealer class user. I think many of these points are great. I'm just pointing out the ones I can already see being used/abused. Adjustments can obviously be made.

Edited by Dusk1PS, 27 June 2011 - 11:22 AM.

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#9 Phish

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 11:41 AM

I did read it all the way to the bottom. 10 Sec CD. You get 5 Secs of AoE sleep. But you never specified how long the stun durations were on the grenades either(so I assume the 2 that is now). That'll be 3 seconds of CD if you allowed max sleep duration. Now tack in, 2 second mute/aspd down on Freezing Bullet(which btw, you can't melee since you're aspd downed or skill attack). That's 1 second of CD on re-starting/starting a new combo before your opponent ever gets a hit off.

This is not to discredit the great efforts you've taken the liberty to do. I'm just commenting this as a dealer class user. I think many of these points are great. I'm just pointing out the ones I can already see being used/abused. Adjustments can obviously be made.



Ahh I see. The only thing I could really see being problematic is like you said with a group of artisan's capable of using the aoe stun grenades as well as sleep. What else would you suggest for the concussion explosive?

There's good stuff here and there's bad.

Good-
Focus on crossbows
Cleric changes minus decloak
Additional buffs like on charge and evasion guard

Bad-
5th AOE for champ
Cleric Decloak


Potential-
Characters seem more powerful. I see a lot of decreasing points to max skills, this could give enough extra sp along with an increase to the level cap for 3rd classes in the way distant future.


I've added a decloak for Cleric's not necessarily because I personally think they should have one but because alot of (the few battle) cleric's ask for it. As a result it is by far the worst decloak in the game and if a support cleric manage to muster up the points to even get it it will put them in a very bad position not being able to heal and falling asleep.

Edited by Phish, 27 June 2011 - 11:49 AM.

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#10 SilverBlood

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 11:58 AM

Great suggestions as expected from your part.

Altho I'm not a fan for crit influencing a raider's burn. If I followed your calculations correctly ( correct me if i'm wrong ), w/o investing in crit our burn dmg over time will be halved ? Also deviding our chances against the soldier class by 2. Wich was alrdy a low value to start with.

Then again, this system -could- make our burns stronger with enough crit. But I don't see how I can possebly make 800 crit on a dual raider like in your example to surpass the current 500/second.

Edited by SilverBlood, 27 June 2011 - 12:08 PM.

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#11 Dusk1PS

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 11:59 AM

Ahh I see. The only thing I could really see being problematic is like you said with a group of artisan's capable of using the aoe stun grenades as well as sleep. What else would you suggest for the concussion explosive?



I've added a decloak for Cleric's not necessarily because I personally think they should have one but because alot of (the few battle) cleric's ask for it. As a result it is by far the worst decloak in the game and if a support cleric manage to muster up the points to even get it it will put them in a very bad position not being able to heal and falling asleep.


To be honest, I say get rid of concussion explosives. I think only Launcher Bourgs should get an AoE Stun. AoE Sleep is fine since you can recover right after a hit.

Replace Concussion Explosives with a 3 second Mute Bomb. This allows them to use Concussion grenades for a stun and a "Mute" bomb to mute, almost disabling an opponent.

Swap Freezing Bullet from Artis with Summonable Land mines from Bourgs, the Freezing Bullet is better for a gunbourg and craftable Land Mines for Artis. Common they're artisans, they should be making stuff and planting bombs in the back, not charging head first in the front. GunBourgs should be the bullet users.

This will even out the stun/mute ratio between the two classes. Artisians will have a 2 second stun and 3 second mute(and 5 sec AoE Sleep). GunBourgs will have a 3 second stun(Zulie Stun + Grenade) and 2 second mute(Freezing Bullet).

Edited by Dusk1PS, 27 June 2011 - 12:03 PM.

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#12 Phish

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 12:11 PM

Great suggestions as expected from your part.

Altho I'm not a fan for crit influencing a raider's burn. If I followed your calculations correctly ( correct me if i'm wrong ), w/o crit our burn dmg over time will be halved ? Also deviding our chances against the soldier class by 2. Wich was alrdy a low value to start with.

Then again, this system -could- make our burns stronger with enough crit. But I don't see how I can possebly make 800 crit on a dual raider like in your example to surpass the current 500/second.




With this system you would need 505 crit at level 220 to deal 500 damage/second with burns. Granted you will have to use some crit gear on a dual raider to make this happen however duals were upgraded in other categories. It would be more feasible for Katars to attain higher crit due to their 40% crit buff. Also remember champs have lost some defense so your damage with direct attacks will be higher as well.

And Dusk1PS, yeah maybe the strong skills for dealers could be swapped. I wouldn't argue against it.

Edited by Phish, 27 June 2011 - 12:31 PM.

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#13 Dusk1PS

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 12:17 PM

And Dusk1PS, yeah maybe the strong skills for dealers could be swapped. I wouldn't argue against it.


Thanks

Edited by Dusk1PS, 19 December 2011 - 03:06 PM.

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#14 SilverBlood

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 12:29 PM

With this system you would need 505 crit at level 220 to deal 500 damage/second with burns. Granted you will have to use some crit gear on a dual raider to make this happen however duals were upgraded in other categories. It would be more feasible for Katars to attain higher crit due to their 40% crit buff.

And Dusk1PS, yeah maybe the strong skills for dealers could be swapped. I wouldn't argue against it.


Hmmyes. Thx 4 clearing that up. The 2 sec mute on crazy style/ faster debuffs and Evasive fixed do make up for a weaker burn indeed. No complaining from my part :mellow:.

Also, LOL @ the Landmine skill for bourgs. Sounds like hell-o-fun trying to avoid a minefield in UW xD.
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#15 DestinyDeoxys

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 02:12 PM

Soldier

Geon Archangle Crumpler - may be use something else than a taunt effect here since we have a skill called taunt which work exactly the same as a separate skill

Charge - let's assume they can implement a new status (additional movement speed) and if you are going to give it a long cool down, then make the duration like 3 or 4 seconds otherwise people will not use it

Space attack - is this skill already a magic attack? if it is, then nerf it to magic attack not reliable magic attack, 8 seconds of 60% mspeed down at 100% success rate is too good already, whoever get hit by this skill is pretty much pinned down, so you wanna turn down the 60% mspeed down a little bit less? It's a champion skill, they should not have good ranged skills

Slugger - since Axe champ class has some sort of link to critical, are you gonna add some burn/poison effect that uses the raider DOT formula too? But that's gonna buff the champ class again if you don't give this skill a weapon requirement

Armageddon - you said "If the user is below 20% HP, the user suicide from this skill", in my opinion this will just allow champion class to deliberately avoid proof being taken like the skill "explosion" for pokemon, just disable this skill if the user is below 20% HP

Durability assist - nothing being done about this useless skill? :rofl:

Attenuation - so this is the annoying weary effect returned, but I think if you give such a long weary effect since it is to put the knight into a very dangerous situation, make the 20% acc down to some kind of attack speed down since DEX knight doesn't work well I think. And make the skill radius much bigger since if you can't tank cleric/scout/bourg, no one will bother will this skill, not to mention cleric and scout have the ability to self purify.


Muse

Aura Pulse - not a ultra powerful skill, so I don't see why you need to put a shared cool down with heavenly grace which is 10 seconds long X_X, if you really want to put a shared cool down, make the skill power and debuffs even stronger, cuz 10 seconds is long !

Unconscious Vision - the cool down is kinda too long 19 seconds, if it's me I won't even bother learning it and the 4 seconds sleep mode is really not needed. If it's me, I would just make it 10 seconds cool down at max level and this will share the same cool down with heavenly grace only.

Miracle - it says deliver a vicious attack to enemy !but what's the skill power XD ?

Hellfire - if you want to avoid the burn status in effect all the time during a fight, u should lower the burn duration, not increasing the skill cool down, because mage depend on pure skill casting and no melee at all

Manaburn - change the [-30% defense] to a MP absorb effect in my opinion a def down status effect is pointless for a mage since they are all magic attack

Both Hellfire and Manaburn needs to have it's DOT doubled in PvM, because mobs have too much HP, right now the burn effect does not hurt the mobs at all

Fierce Cudgeling - it is a physical attack skill, so 850 skill power is way too low, this skill is only a single target, make it 100% success rate please :rofl:

Anti-magic shell - good

Spiritual Empowerment - it's a passive, so I think u don't need to put a skill duration for it. This skill I think you change the [10% critical] to [10% INT] since your next new skill cryptic curse depends on user INT, so let's just unified them with dependent on INT, and to avoid ppl having to mess with their SEN stat which a mage never should.

Cryptic Curse - if it's me, I would just learn Lv.1 then that's it, because you said if the target die before the duration end, I do not get the HP absorbed lol.

Meteorite Strike - needs some sort of status effect with it, it's a pointless single target skills right now


Hawker

Debilitating shot - the MP deplete will only promote more blue jelly bean stew sales lol, unless you make Mage class able to use MP bar as a last resort HP bar to improve survivability, otherwise this skill is just another Pheonix arrow with a long 1 minute cool down

Advance bow mastery - don't make crossbow better than bow suddenly, I don't have money to afford another weapon (15) lol, you forgot to give attack speed status to bow user >.> melee with a scout is a joke, doing 3xx - 4xx damage to champ, it's really weak

Evasive guard - let's assume they can implement a new status effect which gives additional dodge/def buff

Lethal blow - don't understand what is a status effect called [always crit] XD


Dealer

offensive focus - may be u mean intensify weapon, fix please

Zulie storm - u should make the stealth comes with built-in purify effect too

Zulie bolt - at least make this skill animation speed up, and we need to be specify what [always crit] is

Landmind - I'm excited to see if this can happen :D

:D :rofl: :mellow: :( ;)
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#16 Phish

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 03:06 PM

Ok I guess I overlooked durability assist. Any suggestions?

I don't really think champs should get a burn skill even though it would make sense with the crit passives.

I had Aura Pulse on the same cooldown as heavenly grace, so that clerics cannot have the best of both worlds (attacking and supporting) but you are right the skill isn't anything crazy powerful, I'll remove the shared cooldown.

Cleric's decloak, what to do? Some people want it, some people don't, you can't please everyone. I do beleive if they do gain a decloak it should be worse than other classes. I gues the self sleep could be removed (but it would be funny to see a skill like this, and I chose the name to fit this trait of the skill).

For Spiritual Empowerment; I believe the damage over time (burn/poison) calculations should remane consistant and not change for different classes. Hence why the addition of crit to the passive to give mages an option of improving their burn skills.

I suggested doubling damage over time in pvm.


Alsoe Bullseyed, adjusted your suggestions.

Edited by Phish, 27 June 2011 - 03:10 PM.

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#17 twitch

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 09:41 PM

i like!
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#18 Aviv4

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 10:02 PM

+1
Thats looks good, Actually I checked only the Muse and Hawker, and I like it.
Dual raiders does need a boost, and it will be right too to make, as you said, some skills like Stealth and Evasive Guard to no-weapon recuirement.
About cleric and mages, I agree too, includes the decloack.

Actually you arent the first to make a topic like that with new skill system, I just hope all of that will really change something and will be used.

Edited by Aviv4, 27 June 2011 - 10:10 PM.

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#19 None

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 12:19 AM

For spirit boost do you mean remove the staff requirement instead of staff mastery prerequisite?
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#20 iBryan

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 02:58 AM

Giving katar mute doesn't sound too good. katars already have 2 stuns, and a sleep. It'll just be a stunlock fest all over again.

What raiders do need is a attack power/aspd boost when you're under cloak. Also make it where, if you cloak or stealth the people who targeted you before you did that lose the ability to keep on hitting you. Also increase the buffs to 10-15mins.



Also instead of a mana draining skill for scout, give them a def down skill. They can't damage defensive classes for crap.

Edited by iBryan, 28 June 2011 - 02:59 AM.

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#21 Dusk1PS

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 05:15 AM

I don't know if this would be considered but, Gun Bourg's trees final active is Reflect Aura...yet it only effects the caster...maybe make this a party buff, since it's an aura and all.

Edited by Dusk1PS, 28 June 2011 - 05:15 AM.

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#22 SilverBlood

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 05:41 AM

Giving katar mute doesn't sound too good. katars already have 2 stuns, and a sleep. It'll just be a stunlock fest all over again.


Quick Style Assault is a dual skill.
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#23 SilverBlood

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 05:53 AM

I don't really think champs should get a burn skill even though it would make sense with the crit passives.


Axe as a weapon reqruirement on the new burn?
Make some use for the most powerfull and also never-used weapon/champ subclass.
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#24 twitch

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 07:32 PM

ye give scouts def down!
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#25 Kaizy

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 08:02 PM

Can't believe I didn't see this thread before. Good points Phish even if it is futile. I agree with a lot of Des's suggestions/critiques as well.

Would like to see a skill like Des mentioned for mages, where they could switch to MP as a last resort HP bar. More unique skills like that would make the game much more interesting than just oh this skill does 1025 dmg and this one does 1055 dmg and the next one does 975 dmg with a few debuffs/buffs being thrown in.
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