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Attack and Defense


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#1 Yurai

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:34 AM

The scaling with attack and defense is a big problem. The amount of damage a +20 weapon deals to someone with +20 armors, mainly the backpiece, top, and bottom, makes it pretty much impossible to kill them. The highest enchant possible on a weapon should be able to counter high amounts of defense. As it is right now, people are impossible to kill and simply walk into all forms of damage and shrug it off. However, the problem with this is finding a formula that will not simply destroy people with low armor (any more than right now) while still maintaining decent damage on high defense targets.
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#2 StormHaven

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:56 AM

This problem might be fixed if all the classes had their old weapon's powered returned. It just seems once you hit the arti and >+10 range damage scaling seems to drop of the map while defense scales incredibly high.
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#3 Yurai

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 11:57 AM

This problem might be fixed if all the classes had their old weapon's powered returned. It just seems once you hit the arti and >+10 range damage scaling seems to drop of the map while defense scales incredibly high.


The only classes that have had damage changes were basically paladins and myrms, and those were shifts upward. The other classes did not receive that much of a reduction in damage, if any.
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#4 StormHaven

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 11:59 AM

The only classes that have had damage changes were basically paladins and myrms, and those were shifts upward. The other classes did not receive that much of a reduction in damage, if any.


when a heirloom Magma is better than the Undead it's kinda hard to imagine what a Zau weapon would've been with the old damage, but we'll never know. Just for another point Myrms and Paladins have no problems dealing out damage to people with high Def.

Edited by StormHaven, 11 August 2011 - 12:04 PM.

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#5 Miname

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:22 PM

The only classes that have had damage changes were basically paladins and myrms, and those were shifts upward. The other classes did not receive that much of a reduction in damage, if any.

Warmages.
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#6 Bicho

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 04:23 PM

xDD if u like... but... Mages have no evade or can get low evade and aim rate...
So... with low def it means locked and die SO fast with no chances to defend
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#7 Jumpluffspore

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 02:01 PM

I propose that weapons+15 and higher be given the option to ignore target defense at a fixed percentage. If it's possible, have this activate on targets that have over 5k defense only.
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#8 MicoJive

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 02:14 PM

using a +15-20 wep on a person with 0 defense would 1hko ppl super fast
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#9 Reviren

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 02:21 PM

using a +15-20 wep on a person with 0 defense would 1hko ppl super fast


I propose that weapons+15 and higher be given the option to ignore target defense at a fixed percentage. If it's possible, have this activate on targets that have over 5k defense only.


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#10 Jumpluffspore

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 04:59 PM

The precious few new people who join this game and actually read forum posts. Gj.
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#11 Rimmy

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 01:50 PM

Rather than changing the damage calculation formula or altering weapons, another solution would be to nerf the amount of extra defense that is obtained by enchanting armor.

The main issue with defense is that once you enchant an armor piece past +15, the defense bonuses skyrocket. If we nerf enchantment bonuses by a % across the board (from +0 to +20), then it would greatly affect higher-enchanted gear while lower-enchanted gear would only take a minor hit.

For instance, nerf armor enchantments by cutting them all by 50%. A +10 chest piece that gives 150-250 extra physical/magical defense would lose only 75-125 defense, while a +20 back piece that normally gives 4K physical/magical defense would lose 2K.

Or, if everyone feels that lower-enchanted gear would suffer too much from an across-the-board nerf, perhaps do something like this:

+10-15 armor enchantment bonus: -25%
+16-20 armor enchantment bonus: -50%

This should be spread across all armor pieces, of course, but back pieces especially need a nerf -- I get almost 4K physical defense and 3K magical defense just by equipping a +20 blizzard muffler, which is ridiculous. Currently, other +20 armor pieces (other than back pieces) typically giver over 1K extra defense just through the enchantment bonus, alone.

Edited by Rimmy, 14 August 2011 - 01:51 PM.

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#12 StormHaven

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 01:53 PM

Rather than changing the damage calculation formula or altering weapons, another solution would be to nerf the amount of extra defense that is obtained by enchanting armor.

The main issue with defense is that once you enchant an armor piece past +15, the defense bonuses skyrocket. If we nerf enchantment bonuses by a % across the board (from +0 to +20), then it would greatly affect higher-enchanted gear while lower-enchanted gear would only take a minor hit.

For instance, nerf armor enchantments by cutting them all by 50%. A +10 chest piece that gives 150-250 extra physical/magical defense would lose only 75-125 defense, while a +20 back piece that normally gives 4K physical/magical defense would lose 2K.

Or, if everyone feels that lower-enchanted gear would suffer too much from an across-the-board nerf, perhaps do something like this:

+10-15 armor enchantment bonus: -25%
+16-20 armor enchantment bonus: -50%

This should be spread across all armor pieces, of course, but back pieces especially need a nerf -- I get almost 4K physical defense and 3K magical defense just by equipping a +20 blizzard muffler, which is ridiculous. Currently, other +20 armor pieces (other than back pieces) typically giver over 1K extra defense just through the enchantment bonus, alone.

You're right Back pieces are the really probably have a +20 one basicly is like having a second set of gear on :\
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#13 Yurai

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 11:17 PM

My +20 kimarts would drop to 500 def -_-
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#14 Maronu

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 11:18 PM

Player vs Player (PvP) HP:
PvP HP = { (100 + LVL) * VIT * [100% + (25% * HPp)] } + EqHP


Base Physical Attack:
Base Attack: (VIT * 0.16) + (STR * 1.5)
taken from here



The problem is likely with basic elements of the game. Based upon the above, our pvp hp is pretty much 175 per point of health (almost completely determined by hlt stat) at cap while our attack gets increased by less than a hundredth of that per point in the strength stat (benefit doesn't even increase with level). Barunson obviously intended for strength to do something or else really hates the players of it's game because I see strength on high level equips all the time. The attack from weapons possibly can't counter armor with health because it wasn't intended to do that by itself. Barunson doesn't know that mp recovery and strength are completely useless and that int kind of sucks. It doesn't know how it's own game works!

I liked how Riveren said "a fixed percent." If we got some of the other problems fixed, perhaps we could have a simpler system where each enchant level for all armor and weapons could give the same % bonus to the base for all the armor pieces and the weapon. If we wanted things more balanced defense and attack wise between characters with low and high level enchants, we simply take the benefit received for each enchanting and make it more linear from 1-20.


On a side note, pvp armor could possibly give resilience or decrease crits and crit damage.

Edited by Maronu, 14 August 2011 - 11:21 PM.

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#15 Yurai

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 08:24 AM

I don't think a linear approach would make things any better. Weapons will still not be strong enough to outdamage high amounts of armor.
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#16 Rimmy

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 11:01 AM

Maronu's post reminded me of another alternative (that's been brought up by someone else before somewhere here).

A simpler solution might be to change the formula for determining PvP HP, by lowering it by a percentage or decreasing the impact that Health has on it. On average, super-stacked players have anywhere from 50K-100K max HP in PvP, so if we found a way to rework the formula so that those players would have, maybe, 25K-50K max HP, the attack-defense issue wouldn't be quite as problematic.

Also, perhaps there could be additional adjustments made based on your class. Warriors could have high base HP, archers/thieves could have middle-of-the-road base HP, and mages could have low base HP. If handled properly, this would help counter the problem with mages and heals/mana shield, the problems with archers/thieves and evade (somewhat), and the problem with overlords not having much in the way of defensive skills or survivability. The only problem would be that dragoons might benefit, while more HP and survivability is really the last thing they need. But again, if the formula is worked out properly, such problems could be avoided -- ultimately, I'd imagine that such changes would lead to less PvP HP for all classes, but would simultaneously organize them into a tiered system that makes more sense based on each class's role/abilities.

For instance, imagine it working out like this (assume that these are maximum obtainable HP values for each class):

Warriors - 60K HP
Archers/Thieves - 50K HP
Mages - 40K HP

Again, no idea how one would change the formula to accomplish this, but I'm just throwing it out there.
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#17 Himeyasha

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 05:04 PM

maybe add an option that ignores enchanted defense? (I would say Crit but Crit is too stackable and fixing that seems like a hassle.)

So "Counter" ignores the Armor upgraded Def for that one attack. (and make sure that players can only stack "Counter" up to 10-15% maybe lower maybe higher but low enough that enchanting isn't ignored, it should be a low % option on many gears so you have to sacrifice an option on many gears.)

For Example
A Warmage with level 5 Manashield and 1000 armor defense 9000 Armor upgraded Defense. The counter attack would only ignore the upgraded part and keep the manashield part and the general armor defense. Idk it's a thought.

Edited by Himeyasha, 23 September 2011 - 05:04 PM.

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#18 Yurai

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 12:29 AM

That's an interesting idea. I think it would be nice if it were to be incorporated into the enchanted weapon as an enchantment bonus. Say, it ignores a % of enchanted defense (not total defense) at a certain enchantment. For example, a +1 weapon could ignore 1% of the opponent's defense; a +15 weapon could ignore 15% of the opponent's defense; a +20 weapon could ignore 25% of the opponent's defense. It could stay at 1% each enchantment if necessary, but I think the increase in values of enchantment past +15 could justify the extra % increase.
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#19 Yurai

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 11:23 PM

Just bumping this up since this seems to be even more of an issue lately as more and more people obtain higher amounts of defense.

Here's a few things that should be taken into consideration:
  • Defense values above 10k pose a huge problem at the moment. It's quite difficult to kill anyone at this defense value.
  • Ignoring a percent of an opponent's defense could potentially work, but against people with 20k defense, it barely does anything.
  • PvP HP should be decreased to help with the issue. Many people have ridiculous amounts of HP that are just unnecessary.


Some changes that could potentially be made:
  • Cap the amount of points that can be put into a specific stat by a certain level. An example would be that a level 80 cannot put all 100 points into hlt, thus making their health incredibly high. I feel that we should remove the bonus stat allocations altogether and give the same stats that pre-60 characters gain on each level up.
  • Decrease the utility gained from getting more defense. At the moment, it seems that an increasing amount of defense still provides extremely noticeable amounts of damage reduction.
  • Cap the enchantment of armor pieces to +15 while keeping weapons at +20.


Personally, I think that the bonus stat change and the capping of enchantment levels for armor pieces is the best solution. In order to compensate for the removal of revenue for the decreased enchantment cap, I wouldn't mind if armors had a slightly lower enchant success rate in an attempt to even things out.

Edited by Yurai, 23 November 2011 - 11:25 PM.

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