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Balance of the Four Basic Stats


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#26 MVPq

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 06:24 PM

Yeah, it will be tricky, but I think we can come up with something. Maronu's idea was a great start, now we just need to take it to the next level and break it down again, see how it works out, and then we can think about fine-tuning the system. Maronu, would you care to add a breakdown for sub-classes, or would you mind if someone else takes a whack at it? I ask b/c I don't want you to feel like someone else is running off with your idea, but at the same time I'd love to keep this conversation going and trying to come up with a good "final" suggestion that we could perhaps pass along to the developers.

Edit: @Jumpluffspore: True that the developers probably won't make the exact changes that we propose, but I don't think it'll hurt to throw some ideas at them -- especially if it's clear that they're well-thought-out and include input from some dedicated players.


How many of these suggestions/proposals actually get put into action? I'm just very curious. I see so many good ones, but none are implanted(Well at least I haven't seen any suggestions/proposals accepted).
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#27 Nolanvoid

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 06:26 PM

I'd like to get some confirmation that WP would be able to implement these suggestions, because as wonderful as they are; a few of them seem hard to implement and seeing as how they are the provider and not the publisher I don't think they can make these changes, but merely suggest programming changes to gravity/barunson.


The purpose of these threads are to come up with, as Rimmy stated, a refined solution to propose to the developers. We are the publishers, but being able to point out an issue and also provide potential solutions is part of our job. The developers are not always able to monitor the differences from one server to another. However, if we were to address a concern, it may be possible to have them review these concerns with the other servers and see if changes need to be made. If solutions are present, it may help provide an idea of a direction that they can head towards. We cannot implement these changes, but the sooner they're addressed, the sooner we may be able to see changes.
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#28 Jumpluffspore

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 06:33 PM

The purpose of these threads are to come up with, as Rimmy stated, a refined solution to propose to the developers. We are the publishers, but being able to point out an issue and also provide potential solutions is part of our job. The developers are not always able to monitor the differences from one server to another. However, if we were to address a concern, it may be possible to have them review these concerns with the other servers and see if changes need to be made. If solutions are present, it may help provide an idea of a direction that they can head towards. We cannot implement these changes, but the sooner they're addressed, the sooner we may be able to see changes.

Thanks for the quick and clear response! I figured it'd be like that.
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#29 Rimmy

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 06:34 PM

How many of these suggestions/proposals actually get put into action? I'm just very curious. I see so many good ones, but none are implanted(Well at least I haven't seen any suggestions/proposals accepted).


Well, one major example of suggestions being employed in the game that I can think of regards Option Expansion from the Professions system. Originally expansion was able to reach 3.0x (all the option values on a piece of equipment), but players in the IAH server and our server suggested the idea of lowering that maximum amplification to 2.0x or less -- and it was implemented.
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#30 MVPq

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 06:35 PM

Well, one major example of suggestions being employed in the game that I can think of regards Option Expansion from the Professions system. Originally expansion was able to reach 3.0x (all the option values on a piece of equipment), but players in the IAH server and our server suggested the idea of lowering that maximum amplification to 2.0x or less -- and it was implemented.



I see, did that idea originate from IAH or Warp Portal?

But why not implement like name changers and such? They seem fairly easy to do.
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#31 Maronu

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 06:36 PM

I like the concept of Maronu's idea. But some of the subclasses are polar opposites(by definition, not by current practice) So that seems silly to let pallys be so offensive, or myrms gaining block rate from str. Perhaps breaking it further down to subclasses would work better.

Also, no Crit rate/magic attack from int for mages?


I thought it was fairly obvious that the bonus to damage negated by block would only be for classes that actually can block in the first place, but I suppose it wasn't. And yes, you could perhaps balance things more by doing stat benefits by subclasses and also different jobs individually (2nd, 3rd, 4th). It just depends upon how complicated the developers want to make things. There are some games that even go as far as to scale all the benefits from stats based upon class and level.


If you wanted could make the subclasses classes get low sp cost prerequisites for their skill trees (or the most essential parts of them) that would change the type of benefits the classes get from various stats or give additional benefits (such as a skill that gave warmages double the benefit to attack from int but reduces healing ability, increased attack bonus from strength for myrm when using two handed sword, or slightly more attack range from high strength for pathfinder). A lot of equips would probably have to be changed if a new system for handling hit and miss for mages, so if the devs wanted to keep the stat bonuses pretty much the same (sort of four heros same base class type of thing) there should certainly be the option of balancing by giving a universal nerf or buff to all weapons of certain types as well.

Edited by Maronu, 19 August 2011 - 06:39 PM.

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#32 Rimmy

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 06:44 PM

I see, did that idea originate from IAH or Warp Portal?

But why not implement like name changers and such? They seem fairly easy to do.


I believe it originated in IAH. As for the things that do not get implemented, I imagine part of the reason is because the development team is focused first and foremost on creating a constant stream of new content (I'm actually amazed at how quickly we've been receiving major content updates recently, so much faster than it used to be). Things like name changers might be really important to some players, and not important at all to others -- while new content is something that's pretty much universally pleasing, and pretty much necessary to keep players interested in the game.

Anyways, getting back on topic, I think trying to tie together skill changes and stats simultaneously would make this matter infinitely more complex -- I think it would be best to focus first on stats as they form the basic foundation of any class, and then take a look at any fine-tuning that needs to be done with regards to class skills, making both a bit more manageable.
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#33 MVPq

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 06:49 PM

I believe it originated in IAH. As for the things that do not get implemented, I imagine part of the reason is because the development team is focused first and foremost on creating a constant stream of new content (I'm actually amazed at how quickly we've been receiving major content updates recently, so much faster than it used to be). Things like name changers might be really important to some players, and not important at all to others -- while new content is something that's pretty much universally pleasing, and pretty much necessary to keep players interested in the game.

Anyways, getting back on topic, I think trying to tie together skill changes and stats simultaneously would make this matter infinitely more complex -- I think it would be best to focus first on stats as they form the basic foundation of any class, and then take a look at any fine-tuning that needs to be done with regards to class skills, making both a bit more manageable.


I'll stop going off-topic now.
I see, I guess that would be better for the community rather than a small portion of the community. I do agree with you, that the game is getting more updates frequently.
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#34 kenken12

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 04:55 AM

Str = +Attack Power? by how many points?
Hlt = + Health and .12 attack?
Agi = + Eva + Aim + Crit Rate
Int = +Mp + Magic Attack

You can see that Agi is the most Favorable on all the stat here., and as a warrior a huge chunk on the option's on the gears are Str which is the most Useless stat in the game., and the best build of most warriors is Crit damage as it was given on bonuses of our gear hence we need Crit rate,My Suggestion is to put the Crit Rate Crit Damage in Str so that even if we cant stack Agi which is hard we can add few crits without Giant Agi's.

and INT isnt a big problem since Mages can heal.
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#35 StormHaven

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 05:03 AM

Str = +Attack Power? by how many points?
Hlt = + Health and .12 attack?
Agi = + Eva + Aim + Crit Rate
Int = +Mp + Magic Attack

You can see that Agi is the most Favorable on all the stat here., and as a warrior a huge chunk on the option's on the gears are Str which is the most Useless stat in the game., and the best build of most warriors is Crit damage as it was given on bonuses of our gear hence we need Crit rate,My Suggestion is to put the Crit Rate Crit Damage in Str so that even if we cant stack Agi which is hard we can add few crits without Giant Agi's.

and INT isnt a big problem since Mages can heal.


Str is Damage,Crit Rate, and CD I'm pretty sure, but it adds them at such a low ratio it doesn't even look noticeable. Also Crit Rate and Crit rate accessories work off of your Agi iirc. You'll still need high agi to have a higher crit rate.
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#36 kenken12

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 05:25 AM

Str is Damage,Crit Rate, and CD I'm pretty sure, but it adds them at such a low ratio it doesn't even look noticeable. Also Crit Rate and Crit rate accessories work off of your Agi iirc. You'll still need high agi to have a higher crit rate.


umm what does iirc mean?

anyway more Crit Damage on STR would be good since its offensive and its on the luck to hit a crit rate.,
and as an Overlord we really dont need to be a giant crit rate build.,. we just need to hit 1 or 2 crits but big damage to substitute for the miss and many hits we take.,
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#37 StormHaven

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 05:40 AM

umm what does iirc mean?

anyway more Crit Damage on STR would be good since its offensive and its on the luck to hit a crit rate.,
and as an Overlord we really dont need to be a giant crit rate build.,. we just need to hit 1 or 2 crits but big damage to substitute for the miss and many hits we take.,


iirc means if I remember correctly.
also the 61 Overlord set Dianos gives Aim and CD and along with High Defense and Stumble. You shouldn't have problems taking damage or not having enough aim.
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#38 kenken12

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 06:11 AM

iirc means if I remember correctly.
also the 61 Overlord set Dianos gives Aim and CD and along with High Defense and Stumble. You shouldn't have problems taking damage or not having enough aim.


but Overlord should be an Offensive, Paladin have a set that also give's Crit damage, and i think so does, im not sure if its assassin or Infiltrator or both., And most of their set's gives a bonus Hlt or Agi, which is very preferable than STr which Overlords get, on the set as an Additional Stat
Crit Damage should be our only edge to the other classes

Edited by kenken12, 28 August 2011 - 06:14 AM.

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#39 StormHaven

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 06:13 AM

but Overlord should be an Offensive, Paladin have a set that also give's Crit damage, and i think so does, im not sure if its assassin or Infiltrator or both.,
Crit Damage should be our only edge to the other classes


outside of Crit Damage Overlords have the highest damage.
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#40 kenken12

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 06:17 AM

Btw shouldnt be debate about class, should be debate on the Stat,. Which is STR
i think we got carried away,. :sigh:

Edited by kenken12, 28 August 2011 - 06:19 AM.

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#41 Yurai

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 06:23 AM

Str isn't even confirmed to give crit in any form. In any case, adding crits to strength in general would not work because the two warrior classes vary greatly in where their strengths should lie.
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#42 hungfido

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 07:34 AM

I'm not sure if I'll be helpful here but I would like to give my opinion on a few things ^^

First, with p.atk, m.atk and def, they don't really come from the stats. I remember I was the only Paladin with 600+ str but my damage was only a few hundred higher than another paladin with the same exact weapon (weapon damage gave about 20k+ damage already so... 100-500 more damage is really nothing....) On the same token, my def was actually lower than the other paladin (our armors were different though). The problem with str and int in relation to dmg output is how they are so minuscule when you have a weapon that is +16 or over.

Second, I do not believe STR and INT are comparable as HLT and AGI are. STR is simply much more useless than INT. STR adds def and p.atk (am I right?) while INT adds mp, m.atk, m.def, mp recovery. Any smart person would rather invest in INT over STR and simply enchant their weapon and armors to +20.

Third, tying my first and second point, I believe STR and INT should be given a buff in their p.atk and def. Here's what I propose:
Example 1:
Warrior with 500str and +20 weapon vs. Warrior with 1000str and the same +20 weapon
Outcome: 500str Warrior will have a % lower in damage (according to the damage output of the weapon) as compared to the 1000str Warrior. (or 1000str Warrior will have a % higher in damage (according to the damage output of the weapon) as compared with the 500str Warrior)
Example 2:
Mage with 500int and +20 weapon vs. Mage with 1000int and the same +20 weapon
Out come: 1000int Mage will have a % higher damage (according to the damage output of the weapon) than the 500int Mage.

Fourth, I think Crit Damage Rate should be introduced better in this game. It's a great way to add in extra damage for each class while sacrificing their own specialty. For example, with a Paladin, he/she can go offensive rather than being defensive. He/she can invest all his/her stats into Str and Agi so that his/her p.dmg is high and having a high crit rate. However, in PvE and mass PvP, he/she will die really, REALLY easily. Another example, a Priest with high Hlt, he/she can tank super well but can almost keep up with mass PvP heals (him/herself and others) and can barely do damage.

Fifth and final point, I think all the stats need to be given more attention so that they're more of equal importance when compared with +20 equipment.

Edited by hungfido, 28 August 2011 - 01:32 PM.

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#43 Rimmy

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 07:55 AM

Hi twin!

Just two things I wanted to note:

1. Intelligence doesn't add to MP Recovery (although, IMO, it should).

2. I don't think Critical Damage is a problem in the sense that we can't stack enough of it. There are plenty of equips that offer good CD already. I think the problem is that Critical *Rate* is a bit too low, and from what I understand that is being addressed in New Origins, as CR gets a "buff" of some sort (talking about a general buff for the stat, not the buff for the ninja class). Also, buffing CD any further could cause serious balance issues seeing as how ninjas will be getting that nice absolute CR buff on several skills, overlords and other classes will be getting some huge absolute physical/magical attack buffs, etc.
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#44 hungfido

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 01:27 PM

Hi twin!

Just two things I wanted to note:

1. Intelligence doesn't add to MP Recovery (although, IMO, it should).

2. I don't think Critical Damage is a problem in the sense that we can't stack enough of it. There are plenty of equips that offer good CD already. I think the problem is that Critical *Rate* is a bit too low, and from what I understand that is being addressed in New Origins, as CR gets a "buff" of some sort (talking about a general buff for the stat, not the buff for the ninja class). Also, buffing CD any further could cause serious balance issues seeing as how ninjas will be getting that nice absolute CR buff on several skills, overlords and other classes will be getting some huge absolute physical/magical attack buffs, etc.


Typo. I meant Crit Rate, not Dmg.
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#45 kenken12

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 11:50 PM

Hi twin!

Just two things I wanted to note:

1. Intelligence doesn't add to MP Recovery (although, IMO, it should).

2. I don't think Critical Damage is a problem in the sense that we can't stack enough of it. There are plenty of equips that offer good CD already. I think the problem is that Critical *Rate* is a bit too low, and from what I understand that is being addressed in New Origins, as CR gets a "buff" of some sort (talking about a general buff for the stat, not the buff for the ninja class). Also, buffing CD any further could cause serious balance issues seeing as how ninjas will be getting that nice absolute CR buff on several skills, overlords and other classes will be getting some huge absolute physical/magical attack buffs, etc.


ah true, ive thought about that aswell "the balance theyr applying in Origin's" ye thell be more crit rate & crit damage on Overlord's Equipment's Finally,., but the thing is its only for Lv75 Equip's,., so basically youll have to be lvl 75 Overlord to get a balance game? what about the lower lvl ones?., =/ and i guess u cant really put crit damage or crit rate on STR, because of paladin shouldnt be built that way, i guess the last solution is to Amplify ATK for STR on PvP only, cuz itle be imbalance in Normal MM's to have ginormous Atk Without a good weapon,.,

and the grizzly power will finally have a purpose, lol, it would be nice if this skill does add's on the maxx attack damage., well, i guess we'll see in the Origins

Edited by kenken12, 29 August 2011 - 12:04 AM.

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#46 Rimmy

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 10:51 AM

ah true, ive thought about that aswell "the balance theyr applying in Origin's" ye thell be more crit rate & crit damage on Overlord's Equipment's Finally,., but the thing is its only for Lv75 Equip's,., so basically youll have to be lvl 75 Overlord to get a balance game? what about the lower lvl ones?., =/ and i guess u cant really put crit damage or crit rate on STR, because of paladin shouldnt be built that way, i guess the last solution is to Amplify ATK for STR on PvP only, cuz itle be imbalance in Normal MM's to have ginormous Atk Without a good weapon,.,

and the grizzly power will finally have a purpose, lol, it would be nice if this skill does add's on the maxx attack damage., well, i guess we'll see in the Origins


Well, set bonuses are another issue entirely (there's another thread for them here in the Game Balances section), but yeah, I agree that there needs to be a better balance regarding set and equipment bonuses throughout the game (levels 1-80).

And yeah, AFAIK, the new ATK/MATK buff skills use final ATK/MATK (rather than base) to calculate the extra damage -- which will mean some really big boosts.
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#47 kenken12

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 03:31 AM

how bout
i think right now

1 STR = 2 ATK

(your Max Physical damage - opponent Max defence)+ Str = Damge Output

So Str will act like a pure damage


And make Str 1 = +5 Atk

Edited by kenken12, 30 August 2011 - 03:35 AM.

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#48 Ethernal

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 09:38 PM

Also, no Crit rate/magic attack from int for mages?

totally agree, crit rate should be one prior for wms
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#49 tainguyen

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 05:09 PM

I've played other rpgs, and by adding strength it increases crit rate.... Anyone wanna try?
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