290 replies to this topic

[AkatsukiKawa]

1. I propose to give sorcerer skill canceler (not animation canceller, too broken).
Many of WM skills has long animation, which make them too easy to attack while the animation is running. With this skill canceller, they can cancel the skill even though they have finished casting it (but the spell has not been casted because of long animation). The skill should still need to cool down even after skill canceller.

And i think all of the animation canceller should be changed into skill canceller (one example has been stated by Flovios, sword dance).

2. WMs time freeze. I realize it got nerfed after Christmas patch (or bugged, idk). It stop some player for 4s (which is normal), but to some other player it only stop them for 1s (still figuring out why and when this is happened ). Explanation in Time Freeze skill is incorrect and may lead to misleading. "Target will stop no matter any status". At least it cant stop frozen enemies, and cant stop mobs in f7.

[DarkstalkerX]

That one situation alone is enough to warrant a nerf to the skill. When you consider balance, you have to consider potential capabilities, not how it works in most situations.

That made no sense... Well man, I am baffled enough and I don't have time for this, do you? Your other topic hardly even had concrete proof of your arguments about stumble, and was basically trying too hard to get any form of approval, when half the people in it were misconceived/oblivious to how the skill even worked. Despite all this, I tried to be consenting and competitive by throwing suggestions and actually trying to see a change if it really needs it. I'm not going to outright say that stumble is the only catch an overlord has, but once again, if there really and absolutely would be one thing to change about it, that would be the 100% stun rate (Oh but no one complains how lvl 10 hammer crush has 95% rate either!)

Either way, I'm done talking about this skill and I already said all I had to say with overly done detail, defense and repetition.

Here's a new suggestion, how about the lvl 6+ cards that are missing for some of the 3rd job skills finally get a work on?

Edited by DarkstalkerX, 17 December 2011 - 04:24 AM.

[Flovios]

The normal and chaos set for level 70+ should also been implemented to the game.

[Yurai]

That made no sense... Well man, I am baffled enough and I don't have time for this, do you? Your other topic hardly even had concrete proof of your arguments about stumble, and was basically trying too hard to get any form of approval, when half the people in it were misconceived/oblivious to how the skill even worked. Despite all this, I tried to be consenting and competitive by throwing suggestions and actually trying to see a change if it really needs it. I'm not going to outright say that stumble is the only catch an overlord has, but once again, if there really and absolutely would be one thing to change about it, that would be the 100% stun rate (Oh but no one complains how lvl 10 hammer crush has 95% rate either!)

Either way, I'm done talking about this skill and I already said all I had to say with overly done detail, defense and repetition.

Here's a new suggestion, how about the lvl 6+ cards that are missing for some of the 3rd job skills finally get a work on?

Your arguments are invalid, seeing how you can see that stumble is a problem when dealing with high evade, yet a refusal to work with the aim rate reduction on it. Myrms don't need enemies to miss on them; that's not the point of a warrior class. If you want to PvE with mobs missing, go play a different class. No one complains about hammer crush's 95% rate because it's a small AoE and doesn't hit regardless of your aim and your opponent's evade. Another thing that hammer crush doesn't do is apply a 30 second debuff while having a cooldown 1/3rd that.

Edited by Yurai, 17 December 2011 - 04:52 AM.

[Coolsam]

Stumblebum's swap from an aim debuff to an evade debuff isn't a bad change. To be honest, an aim debuff will only help the warrior if they learned a max evade build. And the only myrms that could benefit from that cap between 150-230 evade (before expander effects removed from pvp). But all other myrms don't bother with evade. I myself can cap 75-90 evade but only because the set I'm experimenting with is CR/Aim based now. Unless the stumble can bump them under 175 aim from the 300-400+ area most endgame people can hit now, it'd be useless to lower the aim.

Stumblebum shouldn't be blockable/evadable because from a logical standpoint it's a sound of massive decibels that messes with your senses and leaves you disoriented for a bit. To dodge sound is saying you have the reflexes to dodge the speed of sound and to block it would mean your deaf or initiated some sound-proof system.

All in all the aim de-buff being changed to evade is the only thing I see right for balance issues.

Now let us kindly end this stumblebum discussion and get to more important matters for all the classes.

[OFireO]

Stumblebum's swap from an aim debuff to an evade debuff isn't a bad change. To be honest, an aim debuff will only help the warrior if they learned a max evade build. And the only myrms that could benefit from that cap between 150-230 evade (before expander effects removed from pvp). But all other myrms don't bother with evade. I myself can cap 75-90 evade but only because the set I'm experimenting with is CR/Aim based now. Unless the stumble can bump them under 175 aim from the 300-400+ area most endgame people can hit now, it'd be useless to lower the aim.

Stumblebum shouldn't be blockable/evadable because from a logical standpoint it's a sound of massive decibels that messes with your senses and leaves you disoriented for a bit. To dodge sound is saying you have the reflexes to dodge the speed of sound and to block it would mean your deaf or initiated some sound-proof system.

All in all the aim de-buff being changed to evade is the only thing I see right for balance issues.

Now let us kindly end this stumblebum discussion and get to more important matters for all the classes.

I think they all were talking about what its effects in group pvp instead of just the benefits for myrms ourselves only. But yea I think there is not much to talk about stumblebum really. ahhhhh I still haven't done my suggestions for this post. So much to think about. I promise I will do it soon hope it won't be bad T-T.

[Rimmy]

Fire, the feedback from this thread is scheduled to be sent to the developers on Monday, so try to get your thoughts down sometime this weekend if you can.

[wyverlord]

Stumblebum's swap from an aim debuff to an evade debuff isn't a bad change. To be honest, an aim debuff will only help the warrior if they learned a max evade build. And the only myrms that could benefit from that cap between 150-230 evade (before expander effects removed from pvp). But all other myrms don't bother with evade. I myself can cap 75-90 evade but only because the set I'm experimenting with is CR/Aim based now. Unless the stumble can bump them under 175 aim from the 300-400+ area most endgame people can hit now, it'd be useless to lower the aim.

Stumblebum shouldn't be blockable/evadable because from a logical standpoint it's a sound of massive decibels that messes with your senses and leaves you disoriented for a bit. To dodge sound is saying you have the reflexes to dodge the speed of sound and to block it would mean your deaf or initiated some sound-proof system.

All in all the aim de-buff being changed to evade is the only thing I see right for balance issues.

Now let us kindly end this stumblebum discussion and get to more important matters for all the classes.

if they had an artifact from Warehouse 13, they definitely could do that

[AkatsukiKawa]

Stumblebum shouldn't be blockable/evadable because from a logical standpoint it's a sound of massive decibels that messes with your senses and leaves you disoriented for a bit. To dodge sound is saying you have the reflexes to dodge the speed of sound and to block it would mean your deaf or initiated some sound-proof system.

Now let us kindly end this stumblebum discussion and get to more important matters for all the classes.

Please don't use science for reasoning in the game balancing. I think everyone know the game can't cover the real science (if the magic skill doesn't work as what they told us, how can we expect the skill works like a real science ).

As for stumblebum, everyone has given their own opinion. Let the developer decide what they will do to stumblebum base on that opinion.

And my opinion about stumblebum, at least it should be nerfed to be evadable. EnderW idea is quite good.

[GrapefruitGod]

Sound isnt meant to be dodged, yet you can dodge lightning in this game.

This game has no rules

[OFireO]

Sound isnt meant to be dodged, yet you can dodge lightning in this game.

This game has no rules

Xd Smart and cute thinking.

[hungfido]

Keep stumbledum the way it is except have the debuff effects last for 5-8 seconds only (does not include stun debuff)
Solution to both parties?

[Bicho]

I have some problems with Paladin skill "parry" which has a lot of unfair block rate...
And with evade rate...

and propose that the block rate is the chance to block one of every 3 attacks, while the evade rate is the chance to evade one of every 2 attacks.

[OFireO]

That one situation alone is enough to warrant a nerf to the skill. When you consider balance, you have to consider potential capabilities, not how it works in most situations.

+1 to this =P A lot people have thought about how it works in most situations but the potential is most important.

[DarkstalkerX]

Your arguments are invalid, seeing how you can see that stumble is a problem when dealing with high evade, yet a refusal to work with the aim rate reduction on it. Myrms don't need enemies to miss on them; that's not the point of a warrior class. If you want to PvE with mobs missing, go play a different class. No one complains about hammer crush's 95% rate because it's a small AoE and doesn't hit regardless of your aim and your opponent's evade. Another thing that hammer crush doesn't do is apply a 30 second debuff while having a cooldown 1/3rd that.

In pve, you can actually see stumble make a difference no matter which type of build or class you have. Even with pretty low evade and def like any other casual player, since mobs don't stack the way we do, you will notice a high drop in their damage and hit ratio.

When stumblebum actually literally cuts someone's aim/atk by near half, THEN I could say the skill could be overpowered.

I am aware that in a team setting it can get to be even more devastating to gameplay, but if you really wanna think about it, the debuff to the base is only gonna make a full hit/miss difference fighting another evade stacker
...
My initial idea on the other thread was that maybe the further away you are from the center of stumble's AoE, the less likely to be stunned.

If anything, the only balance stumble could need is (aside from my suggestion of lower stun rate the further away from center in order to make it somewhat more realistic and fair, as it's a soundwave.) to at least make it affect more than only 5 enemies in the AoE. This would make it more effective against a large amount of enemies, and this would make it excel further in pve, I know I use it there.

My point is, I don't think the debuffs have an actual game-breaking value as to put it in an argument because it's only differential in one type of situation when you put it up in the pvp aspect of the game(vs evade stackers like we both seem to agree,) And thus I believe the debuffs could be left just the way they are, and unlike storm says, I am sure the atk debuff is a base value and can't change the attack by that much no matter which class you are.

Since we're here, and we can see the differences, I would like to suggest the ATK debuff be improved to a final ATK drop of let's say... 25%, and 30% at lvl 10 (Yes, stumble has 10 levels but I haven't seen anyone do it. Either that it's pointless, or the cards aren't out yet, like for some myrmidon skills). The aim debuff could work just fine the way it is now, or perhaps also turned into a final aim rate debuff of about 15% and 20% at lvl 10. Either way, my point here is proven, the debuffs would only really be debatable for a remake if they were the high as hell percentage they are now (40% and 50% at lvl 10 iirc) as a final value.

...anywhere past 250~300 aim is well above average for anyone that has at least decent pvp worthy gear. Like I said a few times already, this substantial aim loss will only affect you in a situation where even the slightest difference will cause big results, like fighting an evade stacker. Need I recall, also, that your gear/buffs don't count towards the calculation because they don't apply to your actual base rate? Stumblebum right now affects the unmodified base values, so since you lost 65 aim, your natural base is about 160~163. If you had lost a final 40% aim, you would have dropped from 453 to a nooby 181~182 aim. And THEN we could safely agree that this skill is more than overpowered. The same applies to the attack debuff, you know how much total atk you lost? 194. That is short of 1% total attack. Not only this means your base is only 310~312, but that after that little speck of atk gets removed from your total attack of still slightly over 20 thousand, THEN the other player's defense applies. Whether you're fighting someone with 3k or 10k+ def, you're still gonna be hitting very near the same damage before and after stumble after defense is calculated.

Again, the aim debuff only has one situation in pvp where that reduction to aim base is useful, and that is, evade stackers. I suggested the debuffs apply to final values, but only if the percentage was about half of the current percentage applied to base, which is roughly the same decrease, but more effective in the end, and it would give lower evade classes a little more of a fighting chance.

If I were to change the aim debuff, I would change it to the next logical thing: an evade debuff.

And you're clearly demonstrating that you don't read past half my posts. I'm vouching for a better ATK debuff, and I'm clearly agreeing to some of your argument about the aim debuff, but I don't feel that that's what would need to change in the skill because it doesn't affect the game as a whole, but only one aspect which I feel rather personally bothers you. Despite this, I am still seeing how it would be better if one were to change that one aspect into something else.

Good news, though. Now that I give it a little more thought, you're right about the cooldown. I guess an increase to 20~25 second cooldown duration would do the trick. Thanks for the lovely argument though, it brings a lot of attention to the summit, and I hope the devs get every bit of suggestion everyone's made in these few pages.

Edited by DarkstalkerX, 17 December 2011 - 08:31 PM.

[Miname]

Keep stumbledum the way it is except have the debuff effects last for 5-8 seconds only (does not include stun debuff)
Solution to both parties?

Still too long, considering stumble's cooldown and group scenarios.

[EnderW]

Stumblebum shouldn't be blockable/evadable because from a logical standpoint it's a sound of massive decibels that messes with your senses and leaves you disoriented for a bit. To dodge sound is saying you have the reflexes to dodge the speed of sound and to block it would mean your deaf or initiated some sound-proof system.

I don't know why people keep arguing this I've pointed out like 3 times already that the rogue skill provoke is also a sound/shout attack but that all it does is like 40% chance to stun and has no de-buff if you're going to stand on that argument then provoke needs to be buffed to 100% stun also

[DarkstalkerX]

I don't know why people keep arguing this I've pointed out like 3 times already that the rogue skill provoke is also a sound/shout attack but that all it does is like 40% chance to stun and has no de-buff if you're going to stand on that argument then provoke needs to be buffed to 100% stun also

No problem, no one said it couldn't logically be that way too, but let's avoid having two identical skills right now. How about it also stuns more effectively, but has a different debuff? Usually, provoke type of debuffs in other games decrease the enemy's def at the cost of raising their attack or something. Or... it could be an evade debuff at the cost of an aim increase(or viceversa.)

Oh and... here's something new, how about we increase the slots given for friend list? I'm sure this would benefit everyone. Worst that could happen is that WP will make a FL expansion an IM sellable. But so long as it's available to have, I wanna suggest this to be there.

Edited by DarkstalkerX, 17 December 2011 - 08:29 PM.

[OFireO]

Still too long, considering stumble's cooldown and group scenarios.

I don't know why people keep arguing this I've pointed out like 3 times already that the rogue skill provoke is also a sound/shout attack but that all it does is like 40% chance to stun and has no de-buff if you're going to stand on that argument then provoke needs to be buffed to 100% stun also

No problem, no one said it couldn't logically be that way too, but let's avoid having two identical skills right now. How about it also stuns more effectively, but has a different debuff? Usually, provoke type of debuffs in other games decrease the enemy's def at the cost of raising their attack or something. Or... it could be an evade debuff at the cost of an aim increase(or viceversa.)

Oh and... here's something new, how about we increase the slots given for friend list? I'm sure this would benefit everyone. Worst that could happen is that WP will make a FL expansion an IM sellable. But so long as it's available to have, I wanna suggest this to be there.

I think we all should think from a different way instead of thinking that bullshxt sound attack thingy. Just because it's sound attack doesn't mean it supposed to be impossible to dodge(This is a game......). Nilla already said something about that. And IMO, stumblebum should still be kept at 100% hit rate and maybe put the cast time back to where it was. The suggestion of changing it from aim rate debuff to evade rate debuff is already good(same for log). The reason for 100% hit rate is because we all know that Overlords are supposed to be offensive class which has given up on defensive for absolute power. But giving up defensive doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to defend ourselves in all ways, if stumblebum hit rate was lowered, it would seriously damage overlords ability to defend ourselves since we don't have any defensive passive or active skills to help us escape(That doesn't mean we must get one then, it would be great if we could get one then we don't actually have to rely on that 100% hit rate on stumblebum but that won't fit our class description which says we abandon defensive for offensive). Stumblebum right now is a good way for us to use attack as defense. About the debuff time it is fine as long as it is changed to evade debuff other than aim debuff. After all we are overlords, Attack = Both Attack and Defense for us, what we suppose to do is to attack. Ender's idea was quite interesting and made me into thinking more about the skill, but after all the thinking I still can't see how it would work since it means to put Overlords into even more naked position as it already is now(we are completely hopeless once caught cause we can get re-catch easily or locked easily without any way of escaping except lag which doesn't count). Sorry about the repetitive lines about the same idea=.= I am not good at writing.
But Bascially 3 reasons:
1. Attack as defense. Hold off enemies when in danger for a decent amount of time (the stun time isn't as long as rp and it can be countered by movement speed to escape or by using skills before getting stunned to stun,launch, knock us down. If we get knock down while stunning you the stun time is too short for us to get back up to continue the attacks so it will be you who's in advantage. same goes for rp cause it stuns longer. It is not like this skill is invincible you just have to know the good positions to take to prevent us from getting into our good positions to use the skill freely.)
2. Attack as defense. We are an offensive class.(I don't mind nerfing this skill's hit rate to the same as rogue if we actually had some other ways to defend ourselves like escaping skills or other defensive passive but that won't make sense for our class therefore it is not acceptable.)
3. Attack as defense. This is an extra. Just making it as 3 to make it sounds better than 2. There must be a lot more I can say but I believe what I have wrote is enough.

P.S. I don't want to write again about this skill so please think about it harder before doing any weird replies about this skill =.= I believe what I wrote makes sense and doesn't violate the balance of the game.
P.S. I agree in making the attack debuff on stumblebum higher since it barely decrease any attack of the opponents right now. As long as it's not too much.

Edited by OFireO, 18 December 2011 - 01:30 AM.

[AkatsukiKawa]

More suggestion (Not about the game balance though):

About the duel system, can the result be counted as pvp result? So if we win/lose/draw in duel, it will be added into our pvp record. (Duel is also PvP match imo)

[OFireO]

More suggestion (Not about the game balance though):

About the duel system, can the result be counted as pvp result? So if we win/lose/draw in duel, it will be added into our pvp record. (Duel is also PvP match imo)

+1 to this plus if it can be fixed so people can't safety foam during the duel plus some other bugs it has... I guess I will type it all when I do my suggestion.

Edited by OFireO, 18 December 2011 - 01:47 AM.

[Miname]

More suggestion (Not about the game balance though):

About the duel system, can the result be counted as pvp result? So if we win/lose/draw in duel, it will be added into our pvp record. (Duel is also PvP match imo)

Hm, I kind of like the no-record feel of it. It's just for fun.
At least until all the kinks are ironed out.

[DarkstalkerX]

I had a bug happen today where I was nearby the circle where two people were dueling, and one of the duelists' skills actually hit my character, doing damage and all the other effects to it. It was a ninja skill if I remember correctly. Well, that and the kink about win/loss sometimes being draw when there's not even that much time passed in the duel. Also, there should be some way in which other players cannot be seen inside the circle, cause it can get really annoying when you have to follow your enemy trying to blend into the crowd if there's any, and consider also the difficulty some classes have to land spells in 8 direction combat.

[GrapefruitGod]

Give swords dance a cast time

[DarkstalkerX]

I think that would be best settled by making the animation unable to be canceled instead, but that's been around for years, according to someone previously discussing it here.