290 replies to this topic

[Miname]

Come to Empire, we're always looking for great invokers!

[StormHaven]

Come to Empire, we're always looking for great invokers!

BACK TO MORDOR WITH YOU SHE DEMON

[Miname]

BACK TO MORDOR WITH YOU SHE DEMON

Shhhh.

[zabmaru]

If Storm is right and Miname is from Mordor, how could you tell that guy to come to Empire?

One does not simply walk into Mordor.

[wyverlord]

Come to Empire, we're always looking for great invokers!

trying to steal one of ours eh?

[Miname]

trying to steal one of ours eh?

I get you all in your sleep.

..Eventually.

[wyverlord]

I get you all in your sleep.

..Eventually.

'tis why i dont sleep, you see, im a man, and men dont sleep, they wait

[DarkstalkerX]

*Rant about how the game is pointless, impossible, and not even fun in the end without an open wallet*

My friend, most of us can agree with you. Check the rage that the "Double up" event has caused for confirmation! I'd really enjoy befriending ya and trying to play the game without having to worry about a hole in my pocket.

I don't have many ideas left for trees other than gladiator~overlord so aside from that I guess I'll do a recap over some concepts I didn't mention in the summit before but did in the surveys and still feel should be resubmitted:

-Death bound needs either a faster animation or being uninterruptable like they suggested for wyvern blade, latter which could definitely do with higher hit rate due easy recovery out of it.

-(This could be a bug or badly coded superarmor status:)Wrath of earth actually has a moment where it CAN be interrupted, about half a second before the character smashes the ground, right when the skill starts it's animation.

-Whirlwind doesn't actually have superarmor like the description says, and has a horribly low hit rate, aside movespeed affecting it which can make it skip hits on the transition unless you're fighting targets against the wall. Like I remember once the surveys had in suggestions, the attackspeed buffs could be replaced by something that perhaps actives or passives that increase the hit ratio or effectiveness of these type of skills.

-Annihilation has to be a buff to a skill count, not a hit count. Currently it's pointless to have this buff because of how tedious is to rebuff every few seconds after short of a full combo, and if you're hitting multiple enemies it becomes even more pointless.

-Gamble needs to have the attack/defense/cure buffs improved into final value boosts and % healed respectively, badly.

And here's the suggestions/reemphasizes, lol:

-Raising storm could also hit grounded enemies, to carry out a more effective lock, but I am aware the skill is pretty good as it is. Just throwing this one on the table.

-Also, if certain debuffs which drain hp over time like bleeding/poison became %HP/second it would be much benefit for several classes and would work both in early and endgame.

-What if a critical hit with a skill that inflicted these type of statuses had more effectiveness on the debuff? (For example, if it drains 1%/second, it'd drain 1.25~1.50%/second on a critical infliction) or maybe more skills could have debuffs added to them under critical hits. Of course, considering that critical hits can already be multiplied to ridiculous amounts, giving more skills a critical debuff (and I'm inspiring myself on the destroyer's critical burn status) would possibly mean there should be a cap to CD%. I am aware changing something like that would cause a lot of controversy/ruined builds, but what does it tell you when you can go way above 1000%CD on a DEFENSIVE class? You know who I'm talking about.

I just hope they at least listen to all everyone here is saying...

Edited by DarkstalkerX, 16 December 2011 - 07:49 PM.

[Yurai]

The aim/atk debuffs on stumblebum aren't even to the max stats. People are just making stuff up cause of the stun rate, lol. It only really works by that much % on pve, where you can notice the damage difference, but in pvp, it's just a catcher. Naturally, overlords aren't a dodge class, so the little aim you lose won't make even make you miss a hit, and the atk debuff goes to base, so if you're taking thousands of damage, you're still gonna take the same, but about 5~10% less. When stumblebum actually literally cuts someone's aim/atk by near half, THEN I could say the skill could be overpowered.

If the aim debuff is that useless, then what's wrong with just removing it? I've already covered why the aim rate decrease on stumble is overpowered in another thread, but I don't mind reiterating it here. At higher amounts of aim, your base aim is easily 200+, which means a 40% reduction from stumble would reduce your aim by 80. By the way that the aim formula works, 80 aim is a big enough difference to make you miss all of the time. I don't see how you can possibly argue that going from full hit to all miss is not broken. It's not that overlords are the ones that we're missing on; it's those higher evade stackers on their team that is a problem.

Anyway, on to the cash issue: I definitely agree that the cash usage in this game is becoming a bit ridiculous. A great example is the F6 rings. Two 15 star solar rings grant you 7k atk/matk, which alone is already better than a +16 weapon for most classes. The cost of getting these is 52k IM points (roughly $440) and 10k in game gold. To make matters worse regarding player equipment, a non-heavy occasional cash spender can only hope to achieve 1/4th of how stacked a heavy cash player is. I'd say the average player will have around 5k defense and 5-10k atk on average depending on their class. Heavy cash users have defenses of easily 15k+ and some extreme cases 20k+. Attack is also at 18-36k for these users. How is a regular player even going to compete. I can see it being reasonable if spending cash gave you a marginal advantage over non cash users, but that's clearly not the case.

Another gripe I've had with the fashion costumes is that they have stats. Basically, you're paying money for even more stats that normal users cannot afford. The worst part is that it's completely luck dependent that you even roll the pieces that you want. This is first game I've played where fashion clothing offers more than just looks; I haven't even bothered buying pieces for looks because I know I'll never be using them outside of town. Personally, I think that all stats and enchants should be removed from all fashion items, though I doubt that will ever happen. I would actually be more motivated to buy more fashion pieces if stats were not involved -- there's so many decent looking pieces, though the fact that I won't be using them while farming or PvPing just pushes me away from purchasing them.

All the events to date have been extremely broken, except maybe the recent one with exchanging for 10 star rings. I remember spending thousands of randomizers, tens of reducers, and hundreds of insurance trying to get the rare 4th stat on my weapon and back piece, not to mention in game souls and gold. However, the event for making the trip ticket balloon gave out a soulcraft option changer and a free 2.0x amp. No one has even been able to obtain a 2.0x amp in game through the production system yet and it only cost me 12k IM to get two of them and a free option change, which normally would have me spending beyond 20k IM for one item and one stat.

Add in all the raffles that seem harmless, yet hurt the economy terribly. The main one I'm referring to is the kimart one where you had to spend $40 for a chance to win a pair of kimart wings. That event horribly deflated the price of the wings, but that's not the worst part. A month or so later, the watch your back event came out and made the kimarts completely useless. How is that fair to the players who spent so much money trying to get those kimart wings, then worked on them?

This most recent event, the double your level event, is beyond broken. All I have to do is spend $100 and I get to instantly cap any character (level 40 takes no time at all to reach). I thought it was already bad enough that we had level 80 players who can't even play their characters, as a result of F7 mission mode and all the ridiculous EXP events. Now, we will have level 40's who are now capped and completely lost in the game. Why bother to nerf f7 due to it making the game too easy if there's just going to be an event to cap everyone?

Honestly, with all the events that require IM these days, it really makes me feel as if the game is dying or something. Is Gravity really that desperate to fund the game right now? I guarantee that it'd be extremely easy to make money by occasionally having decent sales on popular preexisting IM items such as insurance, randomizers, and perfect hunches rather than introducing a whole slew of broken events that are completely game breaking. Even the IAH publisher is refusing to give out these broken rewards for just spending a bit of cash. They are even hesitant to give out bloody crystals for the Elga weapons for winners of their official PvP tournament, but sadly, I can't see it being far off until Gravity auctions off Elga weapons as a prize for spending some arbitrary amount of cash. What ever happened to player achievement? It seems that it has gone completely down the drain.

[DarkstalkerX]

If the aim debuff is that useless, then what's wrong with just removing it? I've already covered why the aim rate decrease on stumble is overpowered in another thread, but I don't mind reiterating it here. At higher amounts of aim, your base aim is easily 200+, which means a 40% reduction from stumble would reduce your aim by 80. By the way that the aim formula works, 80 aim is a big enough difference to make you miss all of the time. I don't see how you can possibly argue that going from full hit to all miss is not broken. It's not that overlords are the ones that we're missing on; it's those higher evade stackers on their team that is a problem.

Right, I forgot to mention I was talking on a 1v1 combat perspective. And to answer your question, because it makes more sense a shockwave will impair your senses than being hit with a giant wood log with spikes. Anyway, maybe when the aim/evade formula gets somewhat reworked, it won't seem as that much of an issue, but I'm still standing strong on the issue that one could only consider the skill broken if the debuffs did the cut to the final values, and then I'd be 100% in agreement that it needs a rework.

Edited by DarkstalkerX, 16 December 2011 - 08:10 PM.

[Yurai]

Right, I forgot to mention I was talking on a 1v1 combat perspective. And to answer your question, because it makes more sense a shockwave will impair your senses than being hit with a giant wood log with spikes. Anyway, maybe when the aim/evade formula gets somewhat reworked, it won't seem as that much of an issue, but I'm still standing strong on the issue that one could only consider the skill broken if the debuffs did the cut to the final values, and then I'd be 100% in agreement that it needs a rework.

Why are you so stuck on retaining the aim rate debuff if you think it's useless? Do explain that to me. Is it too much too just remove the aim debuff component on stumble?

[EnderW]

stumble should just be nerfed to match the same level of stun as the rogue skill provoke they are basically the same except provoke has a lower stun rate and no extra de-buff

[zabmaru]

stumble should just be nerfed to match the same level of stun as the rogue skill provoke they are basically the same except provoke has a lower stun rate and no extra de-buff

I'm surprised nobody has thought of/posted this. I'm totally behind that. +1

[DarkstalkerX]

Why are you so stuck on retaining the aim rate debuff if you think it's useless? Do explain that to me. Is it too much too just remove the aim debuff component on stumble?

It's not because I want to disagree with you, it's simply because it makes sense for the skill to cause that. Also, I specified that it's more useful in pve than pvp in a single fight combat, not that it was useless. I'm also aware the debuff is helpful even if just a little, but like I said, I was mostly referring to the consequences in a 1v1. I am aware that in a team setting it can get to be even more devastating to gameplay, but if you really wanna think about it, the debuff to the base is only gonna make a full hit/miss difference fighting another evade stacker. How come you don't say anything about how the atk debuff doesn't change the actual damage you'd receive more than how STR has any influence in CR or actual final attack either?

Anyway, to be of contribution, I like what ender mentioned. My initial idea on the other thread was that maybe the further away you are from the center of stumble's AoE, the less likely to be stunned.

Edited by DarkstalkerX, 16 December 2011 - 08:35 PM.

[StormHaven]

It's not because I want to disagree with you, it's simply because it makes sense for the skill to cause that. Also, I specified that it's more useful in pve than pvp in a single fight combat, not that it was useless. I'm also aware the debuff is helpful even if just a little, but like I said, I was mostly referring to the consequences in a 1v1. I am aware that in a team setting it can get to be even more devastating to gameplay, but if you really wanna think about it, the debuff to the base is only gonna make a full hit/miss difference fighting another evade stacker. How come you don't say anything about how the atk debuff doesn't change the actual damage you'd receive more than how STR has any influence in CR or actual final attack either?

Anyway, to be of contribution, I like what ender mentioned. My initial idea on the other thread was that maybe the further away you are from the center of stumble's AoE, the less likely to be stunned.

My damage dropped from 900s to 300s from stumble. sup?

[Yurai]

It's not because I want to disagree with you, it's simply because it makes sense for the skill to cause that. Also, I specified that it's more useful in pve than pvp in a single fight combat, not that it was useless. I'm also aware the debuff is helpful even if just a little, but like I said, I was mostly referring to the consequences in a 1v1. I am aware that in a team setting it can get to be even more devastating to gameplay, but if you really wanna think about it, the debuff to the base is only gonna make a full hit/miss difference fighting another evade stacker. How come you don't say anything about how the atk debuff doesn't change the actual damage you'd receive more than how STR has any influence in CR or actual final attack either?

Anyway, to be of contribution, I like what ender mentioned. My initial idea on the other thread was that maybe the further away you are from the center of stumble's AoE, the less likely to be stunned.

How would removing the aim rate debuff portion influence PvE in any way? The only effect that the aim rate portion has is in the case of high evade stackers, so I don't see any harm in removing it or changing it to something else. Or do you want it to make someone completely miss?

[DarkstalkerX]

How would removing the aim rate debuff portion influence PvE in any way? The only effect that the aim rate portion has is in the case of high evade stackers, so I don't see any harm in removing it or changing it to something else. Or do you want it to make someone completely miss?

In pve, you can actually see stumble make a difference no matter which type of build or class you have. Even with pretty low evade and def like any other casual player, since mobs don't stack the way we do, you will notice a high drop in their damage and hit ratio. I guess you could call that a bit of a support skill in pve and in team pvp. You see, you're used to having incredibly high evade all the time, being a ninja and well stacked at that, so I guess it makes it somewhat harder for someone with your build to notice a detail like that. If anything, the only balance stumble could need is (aside from my suggestion of lower stun rate the further away from center in order to make it somewhat more realistic and fair, as it's a soundwave.) to at least make it affect more than only 5 enemies in the AoE. This would make it more effective against a large amount of enemies, and this would make it excel further in pve, I know I use it there. What do you suggest the change to the aim debuff would be then, an evade one so ninjas including you can hate the skill even more?

I don't mean to ask for a buff on it either. My point is, I don't think the debuffs have an actual game-breaking value as to put it in an argument because it's only differential in one type of situation when you put it up in the pvp aspect of the game(vs evade stackers like we both seem to agree,) And thus I believe the debuffs could be left just the way they are, and unlike storm says, I am sure the atk debuff is a base value and can't change the attack by that much no matter which class you are. For the sake of fairness though, I'm gonna go out on a limb and notice how with overlords, our type of weapons have terribly high attack, and our defense is not really that good on standard, non +15 everything combat, so it's probably that I don't notice as much in the end.

Edited by DarkstalkerX, 16 December 2011 - 09:26 PM.

[StormHaven]

In pve, you can actually see stumble make a difference no matter which type of build or class you have. Even with pretty low evade and def like any other casual player, since mobs don't stack the way we do, you will notice a high drop in their damage and hit ratio. I guess you could call that a bit of a support skill in pve and in team pvp. You see, you're used to having incredibly high evade all the time, being a ninja and well stacked at that, so I guess it makes it somewhat harder for someone with your build to notice a detail like that. If anything, the only balance stumble could need is (aside from my suggestion of lower stun rate the further away from center in order to make it somewhat more realistic and fair, as it's a soundwave.) to at least make it affect more than only 5 enemies in the AoE. This would make it more effective against a large amount of enemies, and this would make it excel further in pve, I know I use it there. What do you suggest the change to the aim debuff would be then, an evade one so ninjas including you can hate the skill even more?

I don't mean to ask for a buff on it either. My point is, I don't think the debuffs have an actual game-breaking value as to put it in an argument because it's only differential in one type of situation when you put it up in the pvp aspect of the game(vs evade stackers like we both seem to agree,) And thus I believe the debuffs could be left just the way they are, and unlike storm says, I am sure the atk debuff is a base value and can't change the attack by that much no matter which class you are. For the sake of fairness though, I'm gonna go out on a limb and notice how with overlords, our type of weapons have terribly high attack, and our defense is not really that good on standard, non +15 everything combat, so it's probably that I don't notice as much in the end.

Just tested it.

Pre Stumbled Stats:
20622 Attack
453aim
Wolf Rush: 1,020 damage
Blitz: 1,278 Damage

Post Stumble Stumble Stacks:
20428 damage
388aim
Wolf Rush: 850 damage
Blitz:1,170


This is against a Overlord with only 7,990 Def.

[Yurai]

In pve, you can actually see stumble make a difference no matter which type of build or class you have. Even with pretty low evade and def like any other casual player, since mobs don't stack the way we do, you will notice a high drop in their damage and hit ratio. I guess you could call that a bit of a support skill in pve and in team pvp. You see, you're used to having incredibly high evade all the time, being a ninja and well stacked at that, so I guess it makes it somewhat harder for someone with your build to notice a detail like that. If anything, the only balance stumble could need is (aside from my suggestion of lower stun rate the further away from center in order to make it somewhat more realistic and fair, as it's a soundwave.) to at least make it affect more than only 5 enemies in the AoE. This would make it more effective against a large amount of enemies, and this would make it excel further in pve, I know I use it there. What do you suggest the change to the aim debuff would be then, an evade one so ninjas including you can hate the skill even more?

I don't mean to ask for a buff on it either. My point is, I don't think the debuffs have an actual game-breaking value as to put it in an argument because it's only differential in one type of situation when you put it up in the pvp aspect of the game(vs evade stackers like we both seem to agree,) And thus I believe the debuffs could be left just the way they are, and unlike storm says, I am sure the atk debuff is a base value and can't change the attack by that much no matter which class you are. For the sake of fairness though, I'm gonna go out on a limb and notice how with overlords, our type of weapons have terribly high attack, and our defense is not really that good on standard, non +15 everything combat, so it's probably that I don't notice as much in the end.

Actually, PvE mobs scale quite well into higher levels, so the aim decrease doesn't really make much of a difference against them.

[DarkstalkerX]

*Test on damage before and after receiving ATK buff from stumblebum*

Thanks for taking the time to revise this. Let's see the results!

-I can see the aim went down drastically (by 65,) but it's still more than enough to hit almost every target that isn't a high evade stacker, so that's one point we can get there. I can also see that the skill has definitely not done your attack any justice more than a scratch of damage loss (-170 points of damage on wolf rush, and -108 points of damage on blitz.)

Well, I guess that speaks for itself.

I think we can see there's no real reason to touch stumblebum other than to revise the 100% guaranteed stun rate and declaring that it might need a reduction, perhaps based on distance, and I will keep emphasizing it be this way since it's how I would envision it being logical. That, and increasing the amount of enemies it can hit at a single time. Mobs start coming in bigger packs at a time later in the game, and it would give the skill an edge, aside from sharpening the whole "crowd control" aspect of the overlord class. I see stumble being more valuable into a balanced pvp that way, also. You'd have to play it a little risky and get closer to the enemy in order to get a sure stun, making it a little more satisfying to try and approach the enemy head on like a real berserker.

Since we're here, and we can see the differences, I would like to suggest the ATK debuff be improved to a final ATK drop of let's say... 25%, and 30% at lvl 10 (Yes, stumble has 10 levels but I haven't seen anyone do it. Either that it's pointless, or the cards aren't out yet, like for some myrmidon skills). The aim debuff could work just fine the way it is now, or perhaps also turned into a final aim rate debuff of about 15% and 20% at lvl 10. Either way, my point here is proven, the debuffs would only really be debatable for a remake if they were the high as hell percentage they are now (40% and 50% at lvl 10 iirc) as a final value.

[StormHaven]

Thanks for taking the time to revise this. Let's see the results!

-I can see the aim went down drastically (by 65,) but it's still more than enough to hit almost every target that isn't a high evade stacker, so that's one point we can get there. I can also see that the skill has definitely not done your attack any justice more than a scratch of damage loss (-170 points of damage on wolf rush, and -108 points of damage on blitz.)

Well, I guess that speaks for itself.

I think we can see there's no real reason to touch stumblebum other than to revise the 100% guaranteed stun rate and declaring that it might need a reduction, perhaps based on distance, and I will keep emphasizing it be this way since it's how I would envision it being logical. That, and increasing the amount of enemies it can hit at a single time. Mobs start coming in bigger packs at a time later in the game, and it would give the skill an edge, aside from sharpening the whole "crowd control" aspect of the overlord class. I see stumble being more valuable into a balanced pvp that way, also. You'd have to play it a little risky and get closer to the enemy in order to get a sure stun, making it a little more satisfying to try and approach the enemy head on like a real berserker.

Since we're here, and we can see the differences, I would like to suggest the ATK debuff be improved to a final ATK drop of let's say... 25%, and 30% at lvl 10 (Yes, stumble has 10 levels but I haven't seen anyone do it. Either that it's pointless, or the cards aren't out yet, like for some myrmidon skills). The aim debuff could work just fine the way it is now, or perhaps also turned into a final aim rate debuff of about 15% and 20% at lvl 10. Either way, my point here is proven, the debuffs would only really be debatable for a remake if they were the high as hell percentage they are now (40% and 50% at lvl 10 iirc) as a final value.

2 Things.
1. I have aim way above the average in PvP and I'm a Sentinel a class which has a +45 aim buff along with +20% aim from my set.
2. That Overlord only has 7.9k Def How about one at high end that has 10k+ Def, the damage reduction plays even more of a roll then.

[Yurai]

Thanks for taking the time to revise this. Let's see the results!

-I can see the aim went down drastically (by 65,) but it's still more than enough to hit almost every target that isn't a high evade stacker, so that's one point we can get there. I can also see that the skill has definitely not done your attack any justice more than a scratch of damage loss (-170 points of damage on wolf rush, and -108 points of damage on blitz.)

Well, I guess that speaks for itself.

I think we can see there's no real reason to touch stumblebum other than to revise the 100% guaranteed stun rate and declaring that it might need a reduction, perhaps based on distance, and I will keep emphasizing it be this way since it's how I would envision it being logical. That, and increasing the amount of enemies it can hit at a single time. Mobs start coming in bigger packs at a time later in the game, and it would give the skill an edge, aside from sharpening the whole "crowd control" aspect of the overlord class. I see stumble being more valuable into a balanced pvp that way, also. You'd have to play it a little risky and get closer to the enemy in order to get a sure stun, making it a little more satisfying to try and approach the enemy head on like a real berserker.

Since we're here, and we can see the differences, I would like to suggest the ATK debuff be improved to a final ATK drop of let's say... 25%, and 30% at lvl 10 (Yes, stumble has 10 levels but I haven't seen anyone do it. Either that it's pointless, or the cards aren't out yet, like for some myrmidon skills). The aim debuff could work just fine the way it is now, or perhaps also turned into a final aim rate debuff of about 15% and 20% at lvl 10. Either way, my point here is proven, the debuffs would only really be debatable for a remake if they were the high as hell percentage they are now (40% and 50% at lvl 10 iirc) as a final value.

Stumblebum is already overpowered and you want to consider buffing it? How is having a permanent attack and aim decrease balanced at all?

[Coolsam]

I feel as thought sorcerer's skills shouldn't be too easy to run or jump around. They thought right with that ice spike buff to fire symbol. Maybe increased ranges to some skills to help pvp wise.

I also feel like Overlords Demolition Charge is too weak for the high sp cost and the fact the damage is only 1/3rd of gust slash's 3 hits at the most. Maybe make it to where its a two hit animation. The first hit catches and stuns and the second hit is an launch.

Edited by Coolsam, 17 December 2011 - 12:23 AM.

[DarkstalkerX]

*Begs to differ*

Storm, even with only the data you provided me, anywhere past 250~300 aim is well above average for anyone that has at least decent pvp worthy gear. Like I said a few times already, this substantial aim loss will only affect you in a situation where even the slightest difference will cause big results, like fighting an evade stacker. Need I recall, also, that your gear/buffs don't count towards the calculation because they don't apply to your actual base rate? Stumblebum right now affects the unmodified base values, so since you lost 65 aim, your natural base is about 160~163. If you had lost a final 40% aim, you would have dropped from 453 to a nooby 181~182 aim. And THEN we could safely agree that this skill is more than overpowered. The same applies to the attack debuff, you know how much total atk you lost? 194. That is short of 1% total attack. Not only this means your base is only 310~312, but that after that little speck of atk gets removed from your total attack of still slightly over 20 thousand, THEN the other player's defense applies. Whether you're fighting someone with 3k or 10k+ def, you're still gonna be hitting very near the same damage before and after stumble after defense is calculated.

Stumblebum is already overpowered and you want to consider buffing it? How is having a permanent attack and aim decrease balanced at all?

Again, the aim debuff only has one situation in pvp where that reduction to aim base is useful, and that is, evade stackers. I suggested the debuffs apply to final values, but only if the percentage was about half of the current percentage applied to base, which is roughly the same decrease, but more effective in the end, and it would give lower evade classes a little more of a fighting chance. Also, it only lasts 30 seconds. I have a feeling what you really want to direct your worry to is Curse. This drops all your base stats by near 40% if hit with a level 5 death bound, your max hp by an unrecoverable near 15%, and lasts over 10 minutes. If I were to change the aim debuff, I would change it to the next logical thing: an evade debuff.

I'm not trying to necessarily buff/nerf the skill. I just want it to make some damn sense and same for the arguments. For further information and less info I want to repeat about the same skill, refer to my previous posts and read thoroughly. I don't want to be responsible for page 5 looking like this:

Edited by DarkstalkerX, 17 December 2011 - 12:36 AM.

[Yurai]

That one situation alone is enough to warrant a nerf to the skill. When you consider balance, you have to consider potential capabilities, not how it works in most situations.