51 replies to this topic

[Codface]

Problem is the high end gear everyone uses pretty much drops off 2-3 12 hour spawn bosses that are camped 24-7 by 1-2ppl. Its a monopoly while everyone else is picking up scraps.

You need to get rid of upgrade certs AND make merit badges able to be traded in for certain mvp loots

[Codface]

Game used to work better when everyone used things like mink coats, silk, muffler, manteaus and chain mails cos at least those could be farmed by anyone and everyone used a diff one. Now its I bought my diab robe off the top guild farming morroc. Safe to 7 i never have to buy a robe again.

I have also been saying for a while insted of new kafka item hats of mega death. Make the ones from kp/lucky boxes costume ones. Then put a quest npc in game who'll swop it for the usable stats one when you bring other ingredients.It will keep the market rolling on medium gears better

[Heimdallr]

Actually you can make quite a bit of pocket change off of OC, if gears are cheap enough, like a full set of unupgraded gear being under 30M means in under 60 hours of OC loot gathering you could likely buy that gear. Right now the only way to get any sort of gear is either 100s of hours OC hunting or getting a rare that is worth a lot. Both have value, but the OC route is not yet a viable option.

But you all are astute in your observation that rares do become less valuable. Unfortunately that will happen no matter what in a game that allows gear trading. A +9 Immune Nyd Mant is not likely to exit the economy under any design, because who would upgrade it without safety? The more gears that reach a final state just keep adding up in the server, and when characters retire they pass the gear along instead of taking it with them. This market issue is YEARS in the making, the only thing that really would reset it it is literally a zeny reset, having like 1 million accounts worth of gear basically distill down to about 10,000 accounts is a good parallel with what happens with friends and guildies passing along gear distilliing their work into 1 character.

Safety did exascerbate the speed of the issue, but something had to happen to start getting gears up into the +9 and higher range, the upgrade system rates was not being updated by basic design so we made a change that would at least take zeny out of the market and keep the game running. I know you don't like to think of the business side as it feels distasteful to the frosted mini wheat side in all of us, but it is necessary.

So a little Q & A.

If a system where you can eat gears to attempt to safely upgrade another, and also a system where increased success chance is granted via enriched stones and then HD giving safety ot the upgrade, but it costs no zeny.

Likely the safety Kafra stuff would be used on high ticket values, and the eating gears used on the cheaper.

Course still have overages on the high value gears. Unfortunately We've not been able to get the game to recognize the upgrade level of gear in your inventory, if it did "trade in your +7 Robe of Winning to safely and 100% upgrade your other +7 Robe of Winning to +8"

[Macromega40]

Actually you can make quite a bit of pocket change off of OC, if gears are cheap enough, like a full set of unupgraded gear being under 30M means in under 60 hours of OC loot gathering you could likely buy that gear. Right now the only way to get any sort of gear is either 100s of hours OC hunting or getting a rare that is worth a lot. Both have value, but the OC route is not yet a viable option.

Even if i get some "-". I think that you are right Heim.

I play along some new players, and the prices of the gear are so high for them. I usually give them some gears from my storage at no charge, and let them save some zeny to get a best gear.

[Daize]

A feature that eats unneeded items/equipment in order to give a better service to the player would be a great idea, especially if the items were relatively rare but could be farmed by medium level characters. This has already been seen in the Eden Merit Badge system, which I do praise Warp Portal for. The introduction of the Merry Badger allowed an alternative way for people to get KVM and other goodies without having to put a dent in their wallet. Maybe we could do the same with a new upgrade system (and perhaps have a really rare item bump the +9 to +10 chance by a small factor? <- just a thought)

I suggest we brainstorm on some useless, but rare farmable items that can go towards a more valuable service to the player.

Edited by Daize, 15 December 2011 - 05:18 PM.

[BradleyRyan]

As much as I understand the effects of safe certificates to the economy, I like them. Because I won't waste zeny by buying an expensive gear then breaking it through upgrading.
And I also like this idea:

"If a system where you can eat gears to attempt to safely upgrade another, and also a system where increased success chance is granted via enriched stones and then HD giving safety to the upgrade, but it costs no zeny..."

[Okii]

http://forums.warppo...ading-proposal/

[Daize]

http://forums.warppo...ading-proposal/

That would definitely work.

I'd also like to add to my previous post. Instead of having useless rare items go toward upgrading, we can just add more items to the Merry Badger and have the upgrader take a certain amount of badges for a safe upgrade.

[GuardianTK]

We could perhaps make Merry Badger work like how we've done with some Grandma Boxters? Basically how Grandma Boxter worked for safe upgrades was where you used brownie points from recycled weekly Lucky Box items.

Perhaps with a new NPC, we could perhaps make them accept a high amount of EMB's or maybe certain MVP equips/drops for brownie points towards options for safe upgrading?

Edited by GuardianTK, 15 December 2011 - 06:49 PM.

[CeruleanGamer]

Isn't this about the time we put on the hat recycler to dispose spare hats and get midgard coins for safe upgrades and stuff?

[GuardianTK]

Isn't this about the time we put on the hat recycler to dispose spare hats and get midgard coins for safe upgrades and stuff?

Something like that was done for old KP Headgears, but eventually they did it with Boxter items as well for Grandma Boxter.

[Gigahertz2011]

Has anyone been having trouble selling their stuff lately when vending? Feels like people have been buying less stuff other than things that are considered WoE/PvP supplies. Feels like another jump in the recession ever since the GM's started mass banning those farming bots and adding all those upgrade certs.

I stopped trying lol. Selling kafra/lucky box items should be illegal IMO because they killed the market and puts too much dependency on paying actual money to make zeny. I found myself paying the same amount of a brand new PS3 game, just to keep some zeny. Thats 3x an old subscription when there wasn't a Kafra Shop.

Edited by Gigahertz2011, 15 December 2011 - 06:20 PM.

[Okii]

I stopped trying lol. Selling kafra/lucky box items should be illegal IMO because they killed the market and puts too much dependency on paying actual money to make zeny. I found myself paying the same amount of a brand new PS3 game, just to keep some zeny. Thats 3x an old subscription when there wasn't a Kafra Shop.

If you do that though, people would REALLY cry "pay to win".

[viceroyblue]

Stop complaining and just use the deflation to your advantage and profit from it. Convert to zeny all your assets.

[Heimdallr]

I'm hesitant on the EMB, because there are some players with like 10k MVP etc items which even with bad ratios end up being a crap load of safe upgrades. There was no intention of that, the ETC items are meant to be a token of your killing it, not a cash product of great demand all the time. Frankly I would want a way to ADD rare equips to the game via earning them with gameplay as an alternative to getting MVP lucky, but that would only further add to the already high number in circulation.

I don't know if trading certain very high value items for safe certs would be viable, like trade a +0 Nid Mant and get like 5 Safe Certs for Armor. Which isnt really that far off of market value right now.

[blongx]

Another Thread about certification again ruining the economy. I don't know where all you player have been but after spending 4 years times on LOKI,CHAOS,& IRIS server when it was still up. The economy became the same way. What you expect when supply is more then demand. Like i said in a previous thread; How many people don't own a valk shield or nid garment? If you believe certification is to blame for the economy woes then why is Variant shoe being sold/vend at 65M-70M now compare to 100M 3months ago, which does not require any upgrade. The Valk server has been here for a long time now so it is expected.

So you would like if you can spend 1 gear to do a safe cert effect on its same type?

So wearing Slotted Chainmail, spend a slotted Chainmail to try and safe upgrade to 7? That option may get used on cheaper gear, but likely not on things like NIdhoggur tier. part of the issue may be that there are gears that are so class specific that there isn't a huge market for it. And frankly it is good to have things cheaper, otherwise new players can never get into the economy. The key is to have the zeny faucets be roughly equal to the money sinks. Sinks are upgrading and potions mostly, with a little being used on transport cost. Trade between players has no effect on the bigger picture of the economy.

There is tons of dormant zeny in RO, we will need to analyze how much is "active" and perhaps make adjustment to the cost of living in RO.

Agree with heim here.

Even if certs was not implemented in the game. A lot of players would not even risk to upgrade any gear they know are already are expensive. I have friends that don't even upgrade any gear beside those that give bonus stat on description of the item(ex. Crown of Deciet, Cat Ear Beret, etc..) because a +1 Defense stat in game in renewal is worthless compare to pre-renewal.

Edited by blongx, 16 December 2011 - 12:28 AM.

[CeruleanGamer]

How about trading MvP drops for Ygg Berry/Seed? We always need those. xD

[MizunoAoi]

I don't know...

You complain you can't sell your stuff.

On the flip side I can't afford your stuff. Pots, reagents, catalysts, and ammo is where all my zeny goes. I don't have that much spare change to get better gear from most of you. I seriously drop millions on all that I mentioned. I make zeny by OCing junk. I keep the stuff I find that you guys like to sell so I don't have to buy them from you when I need them.

It's tempting to buy HD ore and reset stones and sit upstairs in Eden vending it...

Fun fact: It seems the community feels it's approximately $1 for 5mil zeny.

[Gangstaz]

Another Thread about certification again ruining the economy. I don't know where all you player have been but after spending 4 years times on LOKI,CHAOS,& IRIS server when it was still up. The economy became the same way. What you expect when supply is more then demand. Like i said in a previous thread; How many people don't own a valk shield or nid garment? If you believe certification is to blame for the economy woes then why is Variant shoe being sold/vend at 65M-70M now compare to 100M 3months ago, which does not require any upgrade. The Valk server has been here for a long time now so it is expected.



Agree with heim here.

Even if certs was not implemented in the game. A lot of players would not even risk to upgrade any gear they know are already are expensive. I have friends that don't even upgrade any gear beside those that give bonus stat on description of the item(ex. Crown of Deciet, Cat Ear Beret, etc..) because a +1 Defense stat in game in renewal is worthless compare to pre-renewal.

Bloody Branch + 2x Drops + HE Bubble Gums? Variant Shoes dropped like flies. Before that, variants weren't even vended. Cause demand and supply was steady - it was steady for about 3-4 months (no stupid free bloody branches yet and no back-to-back 2x drop events yet).

[vendor1337]

I don't know...

You complain you can't sell your stuff.

On the flip side I can't afford your stuff. Pots, reagents, catalysts, and ammo is where all my zeny goes. I don't have that much spare change to get better gear from most of you. I seriously drop millions on all that I mentioned. I make zeny by OCing junk. I keep the stuff I find that you guys like to sell so I don't have to buy them from you when I need them.

It's tempting to buy HD ore and reset stones and sit upstairs in Eden vending it...

Fun fact: It seems the community feels it's approximately $1 for 5mil zeny.

^^ I agree with this guy. Just reading the thread, it seems the people who aren't happy with the deflation are the ones with all the zeny/items in their storage doing nothing. With what seems like more people quitting and less bots, from my point of view 2 things will happen:

1) Less zeny (no bots, people with zeny quitting), deflation kicks in.
2) Prices of lowbie stuff take a hike (think strawberries).

The people saying they can't get X amount for Y item like they did a few months ago; isn't this to be expected? With low level consumables going up and higher end items coming down, isn't this a good thing for newer players? There are always items (godies, mvp cards, other high level cards) that will be uber expensive that is out of reach for most of the market. If someone has a +9 nid and they're going for +10, you can be sure they're either zeny rich or item rich or both. If you're wanting the same prices for Y item as it was a few months ago, with deflation doesn't that effectively mean you're just gouging the prices again? Why would ANYONE want to pay that price? It sounds like you're trying to sell "trickle-down economics". I for one, as a newer player, am happy to see I'll finally be able to upgrade from Eden Gear.

[VermillionT]

*Shrugs*
I've only been here for 2 or so weeks. From what i've seen so far, the amount of zeny in the market is so ridiculous that new players are likely to just quit and go to a private server. 90% of the money new players gain goes towards travel, potions, fly wings and any other essentials. The leftovers go to getting whatever equipment they might be able to afford in a week. The Undershirt + Pantie combo is a staple for all new characters no matter what build. However, its combined price is nearer to 500k, that's a lot of work to do to get equipment easily overshadowed by the higher Eden Equipments.
Even forged elemental weapons sit at a cozy 1.5-3m without any upgrades. Any new knight, monk. sader, etc will never be able to afford an ele wep until they're 3rd class (assuming they can afford the trans cost).
I got to around Lv85 on a maximum of 50k. After that, I did the only possible thing I could do to get zeny: I bought kafra items and sold them. Now i'm the proud owner of 80m... or at least I was. Zeny disappears twice as fast as you get it here.

In the old pre-renewal RO, items were obtained from monsters within your level range and could be NPC'd for an equal amount. The higher your level, the better the zeny from NPCing the common drops. Common sense.
However, with renewal's monster location shifts, monsters like Desert Wolves (now 103) still drop DWClaws worth 67 zeny each, even in huge numbers with OC, that's very little zeny. OCing drops for zeny is useful only at the 120+ maps now. A place that no newbies will go. Not only that, they have to compete with 10-20 bots per map for the few monsters they can find.

Also, the safe to +7 certs are ridiculous. As a rare item, sure, but if they're popping up like i've seen so far, it's no wonder the economy is going downhill. Exchanging identical equipments for safe/safer refines is a nice idea and doesn't sound to hard to script. Assuming that iRO uses the same kind of scripts as eAthena private servers, I could probably make an NPC to do it in about an hour.

...I probably made no sense in my random rant. *shrugs again* I'm only here till RO2:LOTS is out.

[zplus]

...monsters like Desert Wolves (now 103) still drop DWClaws worth 67 zeny each, even in huge numbers with OC, that's very little zeny...

+1ed just for that line alone.

[Gangstaz]

So true. Actually this game constantly gets updated. But what gets updated? All the new stuff. 3rd class skills, newer maps, even newer dungeons, more fields and dungeons, NEWER cities, ooooh new instance, blablabla.

They never really touch the older stuff, which needs to be modified/revamped to be aligned with the newer stuff. Things like desert wolves dropping claws that sells for 67 zeny?!

MVP drops like phreeoni's long tongue?!

Raydric Archers are so high leveled but they drop what? Some rusty arrow or something. WTF? Do people even collect arrows nowadays?

What? Old npcs that trade weird materials for 10 red potions?

Come on, please do an update on these. These may seem small to you, but it is important to show that you care for the game. Really, if all you do is update new stuff, and leave the old things falling to pieces, might as well not update.

[radiogaga]

^^ I agree with this guy. Just reading the thread, it seems the people who aren't happy with the deflation are the ones with all the zeny/items in their storage doing nothing. With what seems like more people quitting and less bots, from my point of view 2 things will happen:

1) Less zeny (no bots, people with zeny quitting), deflation kicks in.
2) Prices of lowbie stuff take a hike (think strawberries).

The people saying they can't get X amount for Y item like they did a few months ago; isn't this to be expected? With low level consumables going up and higher end items coming down, isn't this a good thing for newer players? There are always items (godies, mvp cards, other high level cards) that will be uber expensive that is out of reach for most of the market. If someone has a +9 nid and they're going for +10, you can be sure they're either zeny rich or item rich or both. If you're wanting the same prices for Y item as it was a few months ago, with deflation doesn't that effectively mean you're just gouging the prices again? Why would ANYONE want to pay that price? It sounds like you're trying to sell "trickle-down economics". I for one, as a newer player, am happy to see I'll finally be able to upgrade from Eden Gear.

Except that there isn't really a deflation because there's tons of zeny that's not leaving the server. It's oversaturation of the market with gears because of all these BBs/2x events we've been having, and these safe certs that stop anything from breaking. People are raising the price on consumables because they can't make decent income by selling gear anymore.

While I agree that more gear should be affordable to new players, higher end gears are meant to be out of their reach. As I've said in another thread, new players aren't meant to be running around with nid garbs and VFs. I'm not saying this out of a sense of elitism, but because it's necessary for a functioning economy. They're supposed to take a while for players to be able to afford, so that lower end gears get purchased and take longer to cycle through, and also incentive for people to hunt.

Lower prices don't just drop out of the sky. Players will just stop hunting stuff if it's no longer profitable. For example, there was another thread in which a guy was talking about the price drop in ET loots. For example, with stuff like the VF going down from 90m > 60m on my server in a span of about a month as well as the increasing cost of supplies, ET is starting to be no longer worth it considering how much manpower and supplies it takes to complete a run.

[Rutana]

Heim, I just got a ... crazy idea, and don't know if it will work, but well XD

Can you make better versions of the valuable equipment?
Or every equipment you want to have a high value again?
If yes, make a system where you can change 2 gears of the same type (for example 2 nyd garments) for the better version if it (giving it a bit more dex and a bit more resistance).
Make it break by a chance, make it cost a lot of money (scaled on which equip of course) and you can even keep the safe certs ingame.
The enhanced versions will get a high value - and as such the normal versions will also increase in value and price, without beeing unachieveable by new players.
Gears would break again, zeny will deleted and it may give some old veterans a reason to farm the items again
Some cheaper versions (like Fireblend, enhancing it with more atk for example) could even be achievable for new players as enhanced, too.

Edit:
And of course, since the players have to upgrade and card the enhanced versions again, the old normal versions would come back to the market and maybe even getting a bit cheaper, cause they're not "the best" anymore.

Edited by Rutana, 16 December 2011 - 06:59 AM.