45 replies to this topic

[GuardianTK]

Let's look at some of the major changes first. Please give feedback about other changes to Shadow Chasers in this balance patch.


Reproduce
This skill basically forces you to use x2 more SP for all copied skills.

Fire Trap
This probably should go into a Ranger feedback, but it feels as if the entire balance changes simply says "Chasers are never going to use this ever again." The formula has completely changed to where you require Trap Research in order to do any kind of "decent" damage with it. That's even assuming you have enough Int and Dex to back it up in order to deal "decent" damage.





Discussion

What was kRO's reasoning behind this change? How will this help Chasers with leveling in any sort of way? Severe Rainstorm's damage has been nerfed and requires a whopping 240sp per cast for mediocre damage! Arrow Storm is apparently the new option as a partying skill, but it still costs a good 96sp per cast. Ignition Break barely breaks 17k-18k per cast and costs 110sp, and that's with the right stat build and the correct equips. Fire Trap....you can no longer utilize it for any kind of leveling method.

This basically forces Chasers to change into a Shadow Spell build as the other leveling option, but leveling areas for that are fairly limited and requires quite a few prerequisites for it to work out. That and it requires a sword/dagger with Matk for the build. The problem with this build is the lack of daggers/swords with decent enough Matk for better DPS. Most of the Shadow Spell builds also revolve around spamming Meteor Storm.

[Dawei]

Yah I come to the notion that there really isn't anyrhimg for shadow chaser the class was hit the hardest I think....jack of all trades...that got jacked... Since every other class go a need that basically multiple needs to shadow chaser.

I agree with your points but arrow storm isn't even worth it my ranger doesn't survive with it as it is due to is long cast time and delay even with high dex.

Limitation to shadow spell is its only first and second class magic so that gimps the damage as is. And really the shadow chaser it's self didn't really have an effective lvling skills and pretty much relayed on reproduce for lvling.

[Clogon]

The worst part about this is that there are no new equipment to help Chaser's level at all. =/

No good bows that shadow chasers can use. Everyone knows that Bows NEED a +50% range damage Minimum to even compare to the damage of other classes because bows skills suck. Yet I do not understand why kRO doesn't just release at 200+ ATK bow with 2 slots. =/

No good weapons that increases Matk enough. Even the Shadow Clan class (2nd class ninja) needs to equip 2 daggers (120 matk each = 240 matk!) that each have slots to further increase matk to be able to do good damage with magic. What do they think a Shadow chaser can do with just 1 non slotted dagger?



Since event WoE's will happen soon I hope iRO can use this event as an excuse to temporarily buff some weapons. =/

Edit:
@Dawei:
Then you are playing your ranger wrong. AS is very good but if you aren't using a build that can utilize it then of course it will suck. <.< Dex isn't the only thing required to reduce casting time you know. I can nearly instant cast AS and it rocks for me. From the looks of things you are built to be a Ctrl+Clicker so obcourse your casting time will suck.

Edited by Clogon, 15 December 2011 - 08:02 PM.

[CeruleanGamer]

Anyone tried using Sky Blow on their Chasers yet?

[Clogon]

It's good but you can't really 150 with it and positioning the mob near walls using Backslide is much harder than with Snap. We also don't have the buffs of Suras so our damage is considerably less. You can level with it to 140 no problem. but getting to 150/50 on it is very tough. It is very tough to use in scarab hole because of the many walls, corridors and rocks. =/

[gl101]

BRING BACK FIRETRAP FOR CHASERS!!!!!!!!! And I noticed some skill are double consuming on SP

[Shiroi17]

Anyone tried using Sky Blow on their Chasers yet?

I tried on Sakray, with "normal" gear you'd pull 2500-3000 at most. It's not too bad. Ice pick is a good option for it depending on the monsters I guess!

BRING BACK FIRETRAP FOR CHASERS!!!!!!!!! And I noticed some skill are double consuming on SP

All spells copied via Reproduce are x2 SP cost.

These changes are just horrible, it's not even about balance. I'm sure iRO will do some custom changes but how long will it take, 2-3 months? There are so many bugs right now since the patch it won't be anytime soon, who would want to try leveling a CS right now...

Edited by Shiroi17, 16 December 2011 - 08:21 AM.

[peeweehonda]

thats why when this kicks in i am all done with the game they drove me away

[GuardianTK]

thats why when this kicks in i am all done with the game they drove me away

Stop with these QQ-only posts or I will ask for them to be deleted. This thread is for constructive feedback and what should be changed and why it should be changed.

[peeweehonda]

Stop with these QQ-only posts or I will ask for them to be deleted. This thread is for constructive feedback and what should be changed and why it should be changed.

ask all u want we will keep posting r feelings and voicing r opions u dont like it dont read it

[GuardianTK]

ask all u want we will keep posting r feelings and voicing r opions u dont like it dont read it

You can post your feelings all you want in the Ragnarok Community Chat section. This is not the place for just your feelings. This is a place for what needs to be changed and why it should be changed as a result of this balance patch.

State why you are displeased with the changes and what should be done. Be sure to have sound arguments as well.

Edited by GuardianTK, 16 December 2011 - 02:13 PM.

[Soulkyoko]

I would have to say the reproduce skill . Mostly because I chose to make a SC as a main since they are essentially a "jack of all trades" to me. No lock in the party or he/she is low on sp? No problem, sit and I'll freeze em for a bit. Priest couldn't make it? Good thing I've got heal huh?

Even without the reproduce 2x sp usage, I was still using sp quick and even then it was mostly for mob control,I wasn't exactly being a full on map-nuking lock.

Edit:Although, nerfing the firetrap has compelled me to try new builds and I'm pretty proud of my SC atm

Edited by Soulkyoko, 17 December 2011 - 06:29 PM.

[Makk]

I kinda feel like someone at kRO woke up and remembered that they hate the rogue class for some arbitrary reason. I was mulling over possible ways to implement the spirit of these changes (at least the ones that I could vaguely guess at. I don't smoke peyote so some are a total shot in the dark) without it being as crazy and I think, ideally, that this is where our solutions lie.

Reproduce cost is a little ridiculous in that the amount of the increase is either negligible or insane. So they want chasers to not be as skilled in employing a copied skill, so what can we do that works with this concept? Maybe longer cast times or after cast delays? Not sure, I'd just as soon get rid of it entirely, though I am biased a bit. For fire traps, maybe tie the level of trap mastery to the number of ranger traps you can have out at a time? Chasers have a way to level and rangers can still use the skill better. (kinda dumb, but meh)

They really are sending mixed signals on the auto shadow spell stuff:

"You will use the Auto Shadow Spell build"

"Okay, any weapon for that?"

"NO!"

[WateryGrave]

Honestly my chaser is 122 and i have no idea where to lvl or how i am going to level with any skill... Most of the third job skills require Mounts/CannonBalls/Carts or are totally useless Shadow spell is total garbage even with 90 int and balzarald. Shadow spell is better suited for WoE with AoE going off all the time interupting other peoples cast other then that its not very good. BUT IF I COULD SHADOW SPELL JACK FROST OR PSYCHE WAVE UHOOHOHO Watch out.

Other then that theres not much SC are good for and copying skills isnt really suited for the cost of leveling with 2x SP cost + White pots. TI and mooching is only option most SC have

[Charon]

Summary kind of?:
-Cast: pretty much fine right now
-Damage: nothing really desperate
-Effects: several skills could use some spicing up to become worth it
-Skill visuals: doing well
-Bugs: they dont wanna leave.
Balance affecting stuff

Fatal Menace
It's very buggy (as in teleporting only half the mob/the target).
Might be of some use for winging mobs if it worked properly.

Reproduce
I understand the need for a drawback, but doubling the SP was an awful idea.
A Severe Rainstorm for 240 SP? Am I casting Tetra Vortex now or what. Especially considering SR now deals about 30% its old damage for example.
Instead, a flat +10 SP or +25% SP should do the job.
Copying skills is usually quite restricted without a built in drawback, in the form of specific weapon requirement, certain buffs, or passive skills.
What was done with Ranger Traps is an example of how to do it: making the skill stronger when used by its class (although making traps do ~0 dmg without trap research was way over the top, it would have done the job with 1-5=60%-100%, meaning 50% without TR).

Shadow Form
All this ever needed was a cooldown. The resist formula is ridiculous, as it doesn't make a difference, Shadow form gets canceled in matter of seconds with detection skills nearby. This was such a strategic skill, now that also Suras of all classes can easily get rid of it, it's barely as interesting as it was. The whole cancel by detection is unnecessary, especially if it was given a proper cooldown instead (like 5 seconds).

Deadly Infect
This needed a nerf, and got it, but now its beyond useful.
The status effect it transfers should include its full duration. That would make it strategic again in its current state.
However I think it should also not be able to transfer GX poisons. GX should be the ones poisoning the best.

Triangle Shot
Its still not much better than plain DS spam. The knockback effect is not welcome, but annoying.
A 5*5 splash and some kind of status effect would make it interesting (holding enemies in place for a moment, or reducing their movement speed for a few seconds, would work).

Masq - Gloomy
Instead of removing mounts/mados/pets, it should simply disable all the skills requiring them for the duration. Yes, sometimes its that simple.

Masq in general
They were disabled because some were too good against MVP. But by simply disabling them, there is nothing a chaser can contribute in MVP. Should be decreased durations and reduced effects instead of straight disabling.

Chaos Panic
This should not work on other players outside pvp (really makes you wonder why thats not done the minute they come up with it, seems like the most obvious thing to do)

Feint Bomb
"Feint Bomb !!" should not appear above player.
This might be fun in WoE if it caused chaos status (walking random directions), but not on monsters. Improving the aoe to 7*7 would help.

Bloody Lust
Holy. Went from no use ever, to overpowered. Essentially what it does is drain all SP in an instant and heal HP. Making any other SP draining skills look lame (traps, soul siphon..). It does have a cooldown of like 3 minutes so you have to make sure you use it properly the once time you do alright. Levels 2 and 3 are no improvement though.
Both of it could be addressed by making it have a chance of success like 25%/50%/100%
Same "bug" as Chaos Panic, shouldnt affect players outside pvp environments.

Dimension Door
It was changed to only affect party... but its intention still remains unknown to all of us. In other words, there is no use for what it does. Needs a different effect.
A nice effect would be if it worked like 2 connected portals each time 2 were placed on the same map by one chaser.

Maelstrom
Could use a longer duration at least.
This skill is unpractical. It's a tiny ME that is supposed heal SP. Ground targeted skills are uncommon in renewal, and even then it's hard to imagine a scenario where a chaser would want to stand inside an aoe to restore SP. And that's sad for a skill at the end of the skilltree. It would be much more interesting if it turned damage into SP of allies getting hut, while standing on it, instead of only from ground target skills and only healing the chaser.
The visual effect is too small for it being a 5x5 area. Still bugged not healing SP of the chaser.

Manhole
Stop being lazy. Skills like this are implemented without the consideration of abuse or OP at first.
Then a year later the rushed fix is plain disabling it in places for example.
Its not like you cannot make them not affect players, or make them have worse effect on mvps.



I know I am being awfully optimistic here, don't think anyone is expecting the rest to be taken into consideration at all.

Preserve
It disappearing after 10 minutes/log out/server zone change is only annoying. Would be nice if it was acting like a passive effect unless used and until used again.

Trans skills copyable with Indimidate if Preserve is skilled, or if that's too hard to code, at least make Reproduce be able to copy them.
It would give the class a few more toys to level with and really wouldn't be a big deal, especially when they can copy 3rd cls skills without problem.
Also
Flying Kick should not be copyable. Its far beyond its original intentions when used by a rogue class. Soul Linker has the skill in their skilltree, but cannot use it for not being a true taekwon anymore. But somehow, rogues can use it just fine, with any weapons equiped and even status arrows affecting it. There Dark Illusion as alternative also.

Close Confine
Make it usable out of Hiding, which would get canceled. Would be nice since you could surprise trap.

Piece & Remover
What the hell. In other words, these two skills don't have any effect. Yet they are required for 3rd cls skills, about time to make them do something maybe? At least take a minute to delete them from the game if not, please?

BackStab
No need for enemy turn-around. It's not impressive at all really.

Sand-Attack
Chance to blind should be close to 100%. If Im already at it lol.


*Sleepy*
Im not sure if thats the kind of feedback wanted, or if its supposed to be just patch related :B
Hmmm... should I bother posting similar for other classes.. is hard to be optimistic after all those years.



I think the biggest problem with chasers is (similar to a few other 3rd classes), that they don't have any skills that really stick out. Its more of a "do I spend the rest of my points into Slow Poison or Mace Mastery?" situation. There is nothing serious that would make you go "That's cool, I wanna play a chaser O:!"

Fixing this by adjusting the current skills is not easily doable (but basically impossible for Arch Bishops for example). That would require new skills. I assume there's already plans for giving 3rd classes some additional skills and job levels in the future, I hope they will be better thought out, more related to what which 3rd class already got, and not reused decade old skills with minor changes.

Edited by Charon, 25 December 2011 - 07:29 AM.

[Makk]

Pile of awesome

I think you summed it up quite nicely. Someone get this man +1 internets.

Edited by Makk, 20 December 2011 - 12:07 AM.

[WateryGrave]

How about dimensional door being able to have a Memo affect that works inside of Dungeons and still only works on party members. That way dimensional door would be looked at as a Transporting skill for a deeper effect then warp portal since it is a 3rd job skill. of course there would be limitations on MVP maps

[Kaiji]

I would like to see if spell like manhole is enabled in any map.
Disable this skill pretty much lessen the fun. As being said, the skill is just fr fun and meant no harm in any normal map.
Hell, why other classes can show off their skill but not ours...

Edited by Kaiji, 20 December 2011 - 08:59 AM.

[GuardianTK]

I would like to see if spell like manhole is enabled in any map.
Disable this skill pretty much lessen the fun. As being said, the skill is just fr fun and meant no harm in any normal map.
Hell, why other classes can show off their skill but not ours...

Because it can be abused if allowed on any map. Currently kRO hasn't fixed Manhole to only affect normal monsters outside of PvP/WoE.





On that note, they really should fix Invisibility. Apparently once you're in it, you're not allowed to get out unless you either die or run out of SP. Really? Is this intended?

[Kingcool]

Lol.
You can delete your SC after this useless balance thing.
Only PVP/Woe players have use for it.
You CAN´t raise up your lv any more.
What skill do you wanna use LOL?
Magic skills?
Lol like said in the first post...thats not the best thing-.-

And besides the stupid company is -_-ing on the tons of million worth equip what you guys have spend to that character.

Lol i can kick my malicous thing and some other equips too.

THATS no balance THATs an Blow Back to be as strong like a unborn baby.

[Kingcool]

Hahahahaha i get it now...iro is planning to bring the game back to prenewal^^

Now its the same impossible way to level up like old iro^^

[gl101]

this post probably SUMS UP ALL THE THINGS I WANT TO SAY.

"Flying Kick should not be copyable. Its far beyond its original intentions when used by a rogue class. Soul Linker has the skill in their skilltree, but cannot use it for not being a true taekwon anymore. But somehow, rogues can use it just fine, with any weapons equiped and even status arrows affecting it."

i disagree with this i thought SC is "JACK OF ALL TRADES"

honestly having to make another char to be my main is ridiculous i spent 1 year to get to SC now they NERFED the SKILLS its jus saddens me that nobodys taking action

[Kingcool]

I feel with you-.-

[novalkar]

As i've stated in an older feedback post, the main problem of the "after-balance" chaser is that it's only really useful on a WoE/PvP scenario playing as a debuffer, leaving them out of any other scenario.

On PVM, before-balance a SC could solo almost everything on fire-traps w/o sacrificing it's build, it was way too OP in my opinion and the nerf on this skill was needed, we also had the option to copy SR, which was a good skill to stack damage on parties, but now with it's nerf and costing double sp it's not even viable, making the class way too hard to lvl on higher levels. In my opinion, a way to make the class useful again in this scenario is to improve bow/dagger skills like triangle shot, fatal menace, shadow spell or even fix invisibility so they can match other classes effectiveness vs monsters (even improving rogue skills would help).

Considering the MvP scenario, there is nothing that we can do there now *period*. Before balance, SC was able to solo most of the MvPs using just fire trap, mask ignorance and proper equip (i even killed a couple of fallen bishops by myself), that was way to OP in my opinion, even though you couldn't beat classes like suras or geneticists, I believe that an MVP shouldn't be able to be soloed (that is just my personal opinion, but geneticist can still do that). The problem in here is that since maskerades were disabled for MVPs, there is no way a chaser can compete or even participate fairly on a MVP hunt, SC wont be able to tank better than other classes, out-dps other classes, and they don't have skills that will make the hunt easier (since the best they had now are disabled). I beleive that masquerade ignorance was a good skill to keep the chaser as a nice to have member in any MVP party, but now with the nerf is not even worth to bring one... I don't beleive that masquerades needed a nerf, but they could at least have reduced their duration or success chance against MVPs, but completely disabling this skill from boss monsters disables the chasers from participating.

Also, we have some useless skills, like dimensional door... i can't find a real practical use for that skill. It would be better if DD could send everyone who steps on it to the same spot (like how a giant flywing works), that way the skill would be usefull and would make chasers a nice to have member in any leveling party.

Another skill which i can't gasp it's intended purpose is Maelstorm, i tested it in pvp on sakray and it does not affect AoE skills, i wasn't able to test more, but i suppose that it can at least work on ground based skills like traps, some geneticist skills or some sage skills. Someone can tell me wrong, but i don't feel that it has any true practical uses, I don't feel that skills that affect ground that are really worth to counter this way, and the only PvM scenario i can imagine using this is against Edga's or Gloom's bomb, but those are already nulified by using the proper equipment or by just moving yourserf out from the AoE.

TL;DR: Chaser needs an urgent buff on PVM/MVP. I know that most of the things above were already told, but that is how i feel about the class changes.

PD: Out if the main topic of this post, about Manhole nerf, it's something that was needed, but it would be nice if SC could mask people which are inside of a manhole... masks last 20 sec, and manhole last 15 sec, so in the best case, it would mean a 5 sec duration mask.

[firewind]

Shadow C. is for me PVP Chara but with this patch.... usless Class now.