49 replies to this topic

[JoeyLe]

Holy christ. Aside from all that, the MATK alone is so incredibly massive.

i dont understand why developers wants to buff summoners attack so much -.- they might surpass myrms in terms of attack power probably

Edited by JoeyLe, 19 January 2012 - 11:00 PM.

[JoeyLe]

Does anyone find summons Damage reflection op?(lv.5 40% dmg reflec?!) kinda reminds me of paladins revenge

Edited by JoeyLe, 19 January 2012 - 11:08 PM.

[Kazu731]

i dont understand why developers wants to buff summoners attack so much -.- they might surpass myrms in terms of attack power probably

I think MATK values in general are a little low in comparison to ATK and DEF on most classes, but combined with what Summoners are capable of it is borderline insane. A single shot of Smare Shot with a +20 Zauharant and both passives will be ridiculous. As it is now, a +20 Zauharant with the present passive created 27,000 MATK. 30,000+ values, not to mention Solar rings, can make Summoners a real threat.

EDIT: I don't think any of this, save for maybe the MATK, would be as horrible if Mana Burn got nerfed. It would at least be somewhat understandable. As it is with this update, though, Summoners seem like they are capable of being literal one-man-armies.

Edited by Kazu731, 19 January 2012 - 11:13 PM.

[JoeyLe]

I think MATK values in general are a little low in comparison to ATK and DEF on most classes, but combined with what Summoners are capable of it is borderline insane. A single shot of Smare Shot with a +20 Zauharant and both passives will be ridiculous. As it is now, a +20 Zauharant with the present passive created 27,000 MATK. 30,000+ values, not to mention Solar rings, can make Summoners a real threat.

lol theyre atk power wont be the only threat to worry about -.-

[Kazu731]

lol theyre atk power wont be the only threat to worry about -.-

Yeah, precisely.

[epifanes]

I wanna see what their 4th job passive is.

20% damage taken (3/3) goes to your summons where it multiplies 2x. So in short - damage reduction

Does anyone find summons Damage reflection op?(lv.5 40% dmg reflec?!) kinda reminds me of paladins revenge

It is actually a perfect copy of Paladin's revenge, including %s and times, but from what I could decipher from the video, it only reflects damage done to minions, not your character.

As it is with this update, though, Summoners seem like they are capable of being literal one-man-armies.

Still, it's a glass-cannon type of class, as it lacks decent heals (both bird and golgon heals are kinda meh) and the defense isn't anything to boast about either (unless you can make everything +15 and get +20 paris wings).

Edited by epifanes, 20 January 2012 - 02:05 AM.

[Kazu731]

20% damage taken (3/3) goes to your summons where it multiplies 2x. So in short - damage reduction



It is actually a perfect copy of Paladin's revenge, including %s and times, but from what I could decipher from the video, it only reflects damage done to minions, not your character.



Still, it's a glass-cannon type of class, as it lacks decent heals (both bird and golgon heals are kinda meh) and the defense isn't anything to boast about either (unless you can make everything +15 and get +20 paris wings).

OH GOD EPIFANES YOU'RE STILL AROUND I LOVE YOU

EDIT: Though, I'd make that argument for just about any class. With ATK values as high as they are, and Paris wings being the new standard in DEF, any class is "low DEF" without it. Even further, stacking enough Health on a Summoner from what I've seen on a friend and played, makes it quite the tank.

Edited by Kazu731, 20 January 2012 - 04:02 AM.

[Maronu]

The main downside to summoner before was the cast time on all the skills. I don't want to be the most OP class in the game. Please nerf something! #10

OH GOD EPIFANES YOU'RE STILL AROUND I LOVE YOU

EDIT: Though, I'd make that argument for just about any class. With ATK values as high as they are, and Paris wings being the new standard in DEF, any class is "low DEF" without it. Even further, stacking enough Health on a Summoner from what I've seen on a friend and played, makes it quite the tank.

Anyone can stack a bunch of health. Most of the good hlt equips in the game are random pieces that can be equipped by everyone.

I want to see the twin skills.

Edited by Maronu, 20 January 2012 - 06:11 AM.

[epifanes]

OH GOD EPIFANES YOU'RE STILL AROUND I LOVE YOU

EDIT: Though, I'd make that argument for just about any class. With ATK values as high as they are, and Paris wings being the new standard in DEF, any class is "low DEF" without it. Even further, stacking enough Health on a Summoner from what I've seen on a friend and played, makes it quite the tank.

Haha, are you still waiting for Sky Garden? #1

Yeah, stacking HLT is not hard, my lvl70 summoner has 420 HLT, but it doesn't matter if my DEF is 3k - the only difference is that I don't die in one goon/shadow combo, but in two #12

The main downside to summoner before was the cast time on all the skills. I don't want to be the most OP class in the game. Please nerf something! #10

In theory, with new cast acceleration skill, summoners might replace goons for new infinite ground lock machine. Spell Trap (instant cast, 6 secs CD) + Rolling Stone (0.2 cast, 8 secs CD) + Golgon stun should be able to keep the opponent permanently stunned (as long as your aim is high enough to counter dodge builds).

[GrapefruitGod]

So how much time will it be before everyone rerolls summoners now?

[Miname]

So how much time will it be before everyone rerolls summoners now?

They would just need to log on to the old accounts they abandoned.

[Kazu731]

The main downside to summoner before was the cast time on all the skills. I don't want to be the most OP class in the game. Please nerf something! #10

Anyone can stack a bunch of health. Most of the good hlt equips in the game are random pieces that can be equipped by everyone.

I want to see the twin skills.

That's correct, but I don't think the cast times were all too in need of fixing so long as Summoner had every other thing at its disposal. A reduction in cast time--which forces Summoners to use summons--on top of some pretty hefty new attacks and debuffs puts them a bit over the mark. And yes, any class can stack health--and defense for that matter--but that eliminates the idea of glass cannons in the same respect because you can have survivability across the board. On any class.

Haha, are you still waiting for Sky Garden? #1

Yeah, stacking HLT is not hard, my lvl70 summoner has 420 HLT, but it doesn't matter if my DEF is 3k - the only difference is that I don't die in one goon/shadow combo, but in two #12



In theory, with new cast acceleration skill, summoners might replace goons for new infinite ground lock machine. Spell Trap (instant cast, 6 secs CD) + Rolling Stone (0.2 cast, 8 secs CD) + Golgon stun should be able to keep the opponent permanently stunned (as long as your aim is high enough to counter dodge builds).

Of course I am! It's coming soon, you know!

In fact, I am aware that it was almost possible to lock prior to cast accel. Consider those skills in light of tons of other stuff like Petrification from the new awakening skill, dash-block debuff from earthquake, and the sheer amount of DPS from Smare Shot for another thing and I think there's quite a powerful class. However, I don't think any of this sounds ridiculously OP by itself, but in combination with Mana Burn--ESPECIALLY when you take all of this into group PvP where Summoner is a support class--and you have a character that can tie your hands behind your back and beat you to death.

I think if there were a Mana Burn modification, this class would be pretty swell and in just the right place for now. Maybe a bit strong for its own good, but tactful. I can't wait to see the Fighter skills. My Fighter is the cutest one in server, by the way.

EDIT: By the way, as a disclaimer, I don't want anyone to think this is a QQ post. I get to play on a level 80 summoner too and hell, I'm looking forward to this too. I'm just speculating on the array of skills it has and I could very well be wrong about stuff. I think Summoner is shaping up to be pretty unique and fun compared to what I once thought of it--I used to think it was gimmicky and slow and overall overlookable. Now it seems to be making a name for itself.

Edited by Kazu731, 20 January 2012 - 07:40 AM.

[funinfrance]

My my I just saw the video... Time to buy up even more hunters for sp now >.<

[Bryant90]

I might just have to start leveling my Twin again.

[epifanes]

That's correct, but I don't think the cast times were all too in need of fixing so long as Summoner had every other thing at its disposal. A reduction in cast time--which forces Summoners to use summons--on top of some pretty hefty new attacks and debuffs puts them a bit over the mark. And yes, any class can stack health--and defense for that matter--but that eliminates the idea of glass cannons in the same respect because you can have survivability across the board. On any class.

In fact, I am aware that it was almost possible to lock prior to cast accel. Consider those skills in light of tons of other stuff like Petrification from the new awakening skill, dash-block debuff from earthquake, and the sheer amount of DPS from Smare Shot for another thing and I think there's quite a powerful class. However, I don't think any of this sounds ridiculously OP by itself, but in combination with Mana Burn--ESPECIALLY when you take all of this into group PvP where Summoner is a support class--and you have a character that can tie your hands behind your back and beat you to death.

I think if there were a Mana Burn modification, this class would be pretty swell and in just the right place for now. Maybe a bit strong for its own good, but tactful. I can't wait to see the Fighter skills. My Fighter is the cutest one in server, by the way.

I'd still rather wait for the actual patch (or more videos) before calling the new summoner OP - there are many catches to it IMO. First, getting all new skills and retaining the useful old ones would cost insane amount of SP, so I do believe summoners will have to think hard about what to use and what to drop. Second - many of the new skills are summon-based (cast accel, revenge, new freeze), and if you have an experience with many summons, you should know that their AI is not really high (especially their reaction times and positioning).

I suppose 1v1 PvP will still be hard - you will barely get enough time to cast everything you actually need to use before the opponent jumps on you (you need to cast 3 summons first, plus 2-3 debuff skills maybe). Personally I don't think a summoner with OP equipment will stand much chance against OP-equipped goons/shadows, but the bunch of new skills can at least make it a PvP-viable and respectable class. It might perhaps become the best supporting class in mass PvP though.

Btw, Mana Burn should not really be a problem for anyone. Yoghurts etc are way cheaper than cakes and HP recovery stuff, and at least on EU server people already learned that, so my attempts to burn mana in BSq keep failing hard #3

Edited by epifanes, 20 January 2012 - 09:21 AM.

[Kazu731]

I'd still rather wait for the actual patch (or more videos) before calling the new summoner OP - there are many catches to it IMO. First, getting all new skills and retaining the useful old ones would cost insane amount of SP, so I do believe summoners will have to think hard about what to use and what to drop. Second - many of the new skills are summon-based (cast accel, revenge, new freeze), and if you have an experience with many summons, you should know that their AI is not really high (especially their reaction times and positioning).

I suppose 1v1 PvP will still be hard - you will barely get enough time to cast everything you actually need to use before the opponent jumps on you (you need to cast 3 summons first, plus 2-3 debuff skills maybe). Personally I don't think a summoner with OP equipment will stand much chance against OP-equipped goons/shadows, but the bunch of new skills can at least make it a PvP-viable and respectable class. It might perhaps become the best supporting class in mass PvP though.

Btw, Mana Burn should not really be a problem for anyone. Yoghurts etc are way cheaper than cakes and HP recovery stuff, and at least on EU server people already learned that, so my attempts to burn mana in BSq keep failing hard #3

This is a very good point--I find that for Dragonkin a lot of the balance comes from simply managing your SP effectively. And in 1v1 I don't think Summoner will be quite on par with Dragoons or Ninjas, but this certainly does knock them up a couple notches and that does bring their role in group a few rungs up the ladder. As for the AI, they are not very bright but I find with Golgon especially his HP, ATK, and attack range make him a pretty useful assistant--at least for the role as a distraction which a Summoner heavily needs.

As for Mana Burn, we've held a bit of a debate on this over here. One side's point is the same as yours--to spam MP healing items and it proves not to be a problem. On the other hand, and I tend to align with this side a bit more, some players find that it should not be necessary to go through hordes of an item just to remain survivable against a single skill. I think a lot of the Summoner's skills tie in with a theme of trying to inconvenience the opponent as much as possible--which is why it's so great in group--and certainly depleting MP is a pretty big hindrance, but I think that it's a tad excessive in conjunction with other skills. I am willing to concede that both sides have their points and I should actually not talk beyond this because my PvP skill level is still very minimal and I do not think I have the experience to discuss these skills beyond this point.

EDIT: There are so many goddamn circles in Summoner skills.

Edited by Kazu731, 20 January 2012 - 09:35 AM.

[HavocInfinity]

Its true summoners don't have that great of defenses or healing capabilities, but they have Nation Fury, which means HP and MATK = out the roof. Imo, since Priests have that damage reduction on Double Shot, Smare Shot should too. And Rolling stone needs a longer cooldown.

EDIT: Forgot to include Nature's Blessing. A 2/2, it gives a +5% MATK... yes, on top of the 18% from Nation Fury.

Edited by HavocInfinity, 20 January 2012 - 11:01 AM.

[Jumpluffspore]

Wow I was planning on making femdom summoner anyways :C. We won't even need mana burn, discard it.

[Rimmy]

I'm with Epif, I think it's too soon to judge these new skills based on one video. As mentioned, almost all of them seem summon-based, and quite honestly the only summon I've seen that seems able to survive for more than a few quick hits in PvP is Golgon. If that cast-time-decrease buff really is summon-dependent, then all it would take is killing off a few summons and the summoner would be forced to start summoning again to keep the buff going. And really, an instant cast Spell Trap isn't much different than the other myriad instant cast stuns/knockdowns/freezes in the game, IMO -- just a catching skill like any other. TBH, these changes seemed designed just to bring summoners more in line with existing classes, at least at a first glance.

As for Mana Burn, much has been said, but rather than continue to debate it I think at this point it's best to just let things go as they may and come back to the issue once we see the next batch of class/skill balances and we see summoners become more common. For all we know, there could be other adjustments made -- not only to the summoner class, or the fighter class, but other classes or even game mechanics, as well. In any case, I think once summoners get the buff they need to become more popular, it'll become apparent soon enough whether an aspect of the class is OP or not through simple gameplay.

[JoeyLe]

Its true summoners don't have that great of defenses or healing capabilities, but they have Nation Fury, which means HP and MATK = out the roof. Imo, since Priests have that damage reduction on Double Shot, Smare Shot should too. And Rolling stone needs a longer cooldown.

EDIT: Forgot to include Nature's Blessing. A 2/2, it gives a +5% MATK... yes, on top of the 18% from Nation Fury.

nation of fury adds %hp, so it would barely be ntoiceable in pvp

Edited by JoeyLe, 20 January 2012 - 02:24 PM.

[epifanes]

nation of fury adds %hp, so it would barely be ntoiceable in pvp

It's very noticeable if you are a HLT/HP build - actually, the higher your HP gets, the more useful %HP modifier is.

Related to this and Rimmy's post - once you have really high HP, any well-upgraded minion can be hard to kill. My fully upgraded mists have 240k HP each in PvP (300% of my own HP), so it's actually much easier to kill me than them #6

Well, the new skills look really promising on paper, but having too many good skills can be sometimes more of a hindrance rather than a blessing. I hope we get to see some actual PvP videos from Japan before this patch hits your or EU server, because frankly, I have no idea how to use my last reset scroll #6

[JoeyLe]

It's very noticeable if you are a HLT/HP build - actually, the higher your HP gets, the more useful %HP modifier is.

Related to this and Rimmy's post - once you have really high HP, any well-upgraded minion can be hard to kill. My fully upgraded mists have 240k HP each in PvP (300% of my own HP), so it's actually much easier to kill me than them #6

Well, the new skills look really promising on paper, but having too many good skills can be sometimes more of a hindrance rather than a blessing. I hope we get to see some actual PvP videos from Japan before this patch hits your or EU server, because frankly, I have no idea how to use my last reset scroll #6

yeah, and with the damage reflection buff on the summons now, it would probably be suicide to even bother attacking them

[Kazu731]

Someone go fetch the Fighter ones now!

[Rimmy]

yeah, and with the damage reflection buff on the summons now, it would probably be suicide to even bother attacking them

If it works like pally revenge, then magicians and other summoners would have no problem.

As for the high HP of summons, they take PvE damage, meaning that 240K HP is peanuts, especially if you're stacking CD.

[Coolsam]

If it works like pally revenge, then magicians and other summoners would have no problem.

As for the high HP of summons, they take PvE damage, meaning that 240K HP is peanuts, especially if you're stacking CD.

Sadly this is true for the summons hp.