131 replies to this topic

[Akshaysanwal]

Haha this thread has explored various aspects of +10 certificates for sure

[Xellie]

While the numbers agree that 25 ores per +8 to +9 attempt is bad luck, don't you drop from +7 to +6 whenever your +7 to +8 attempt fails (and if iRO wiki numbers are right, that +7 to +8 failure happens 70% of the time). And doesn't that mean you'd be using a safe to 7 cert to get it back up to +7? Or do people prefer to use enriched on that and accept the 25% chance that their KvM weapons or whatnot will break?

The chances of that are so slim... I'd rather just use the +7 cert in the unlikely event of that happening.

Assume the zeny from selling a +10 cert will cover that.

The sucess rate of 7->8 is higher than that.... much higher D:

[Heimdallr]

Any Refining run to +X always has to be a 'streak" when using HD ores. If you want to get from +7 -> 10 at some point you have to get 3 successes in a row. The certs allow a bit more wiggle room because a fail will stay at the level rather than go backwards.

I am not the more prodigious upgrader, but I've done quite a few to 9, and I can say that I've had luck go from literally =0-4 elu 4-7 in 4 Certs and then 7-9 in under 10 HD Elu (Black Leather Boots[1]
And then I've had ones that I got to +7 and then literally spent 438 HD Elu to get it to +9. I am zeny broke now.. But considering if I had to try and find the hundreds of gears to try and +9 it I would be more sad.

[Xellie]

Maybe you should have waited for enriched hammer then. They put him in really often.

[Shiroi17]

Maybe I'm missing something but ... how do you prevent +7 from going back to +6? I was under the impression that when you try +7 to +8 with either Mighty Hammer or Enriched Hammer, the failure rate is 70% and on failure, it goes back to +6. At least, that's what I gleaned from the announcement from November of last year:

http://www.playragna...ail.aspx?id=139

I haven't actually spent any zeny on upgrading; I just crunch numbers to see the expected cost (math nerd). The math looks like this:

Edit: Ok, 1 already successfully made it from +8 to +9, so adjusting the math...
Edit 2: Actually, the success rate from +6 to +7 is lower than I thought, so adjusting the math again...

• In order to get 1 successful transition from +9 to +10 (10% success rate with Enriched Hammer), on average you need to have attempted the +9 to +10 upgrade about ten times. All 10 must come from +8, but 1 already made it so we'll just look for the other 9 transition attempts.
• In order to get 9 successful transitions from +8 to +9 (30% success rate with Enriched Hammer), on average you need to have attempted the +8 to +9 upgrade about 30 times. Since 9 of your attempts were due to the +9 to +10 failure, that leaves 21 successful transitions from +7 to +8.
• In order to get 21 successful transitions from +7 to +8 (30% success rate with Enriched Hammer), on average you need to have attempted the +7 to +8 upgrade 70 times. Since 21 of your attempts were due to +8 failure, that leaves 49 successful transitions from +6 to +7.
• In order to get 49 successful transitions from +6 to +7 (40% success rate with Safe to 7 Certs), on average you will have needed to attempt the +6 to +7 upgrade 122 times. Downgrades never happen, so you don't have to worry about the cost trickling down to the +5 to +6 upgrade.

Since the last step is 122 attempts, and you need 1 cert every time you make the +6 to +7 attempt, that results in 122 certs per +9 to +10 attempt. (Original assumptions had different number, see edit notes above.).

Naturally, if I'm making incorrect assumptions about how Enriched Hammer works, the math needs to be changed (and I did the math with enriched, since without enriched you wind up needing a lot more certs due to the increased failure coming down). Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just doing calculations based on how I understand the refinement system to work reading through the wiki entry on it.

I'm surprised nobody corrected you but here is how it goes.

When using Mighty Hammer or Enriched Hammer, Once you start upgrading, if the gear drops below +7 you can keep on trying to upgrade it using the ores as long as you do not leave the dialog with the npc. Hence why I said that getting the gear back to +7 is quite easy as long as you are smart and keep buffer ores (~15 enriched or ~100 HD). It's annoying when all your buffer ore fails ... rare but does happen >.<

[Kadelia]

Maybe you should have waited for enriched hammer then. They put him in really often.

LOL. +1

[holatuwol]

The sucess rate of 7->8 is higher than that.... much higher D:

Ah, good to know. I've been using the iRO wiki article on the refinement system, and that one lists level 3 weapons, level 4 weapons and armors at 30% success rate for +7 to +8 using enriched (and the event notice just said "enriched rates" without saying what those were), and I don't have first-hand experience upgrading at that level.

Once you start upgrading, if the gear drops below +7 you can keep on trying to upgrade it using the ores as long as you do not leave the dialog with the npc.

Aha, that explains why someone mentioned that they had equipment at +9 that downgraded to +5 during their attempt to get it to +10.

I thought they were just exaggerating, but I guess if you can exploit a loophole in the NPC code like that, that scenario becomes possible and you can get things much cheaper in the average case. Thanks for clarifying.

Edited by holatuwol, 23 March 2012 - 12:10 AM.

[KriticalAssassin]

Any Refining run to +X always has to be a 'streak" when using HD ores. If you want to get from +7 -> 10 at some point you have to get 3 successes in a row. The certs allow a bit more wiggle room because a fail will stay at the level rather than go backwards.

I am not the more prodigious upgrader, but I've done quite a few to 9, and I can say that I've had luck go from literally =0-4 elu 4-7 in 4 Certs and then 7-9 in under 10 HD Elu (Black Leather Boots[1]
And then I've had ones that I got to +7 and then literally spent 438 HD Elu to get it to +9. I am zeny broke now.. But considering if I had to try and find the hundreds of gears to try and +9 it I would be more sad.

Yeah but...you don't have to pay to get hd's. I'm so confused T_T. Zeny broke? How does a gm go zeny broke?

[TheLastExile]

I think most people just have a problem with "Oh hey, that bastard just joined 1 month ago and he also has X amount of +12 items? Hell no!" I know I would feel that way....

Am i to take this a proof that Valkyrie value items over player skill?

The gears dont make the player, look at Yagamiyoyo (not actual name but you know whom im talking about)

I have no doubt that his gears are extremely good, its a shame all he dose with the is CC - GoH, and in WoE he cant even get one off before hes brought down.

[TheLastExile]

Yes, but the point Creza is making is that someone WILlL QQ about spending so much money and not +10ing any of their gears. Like the guy who had to use 50 +10's or something.

Great, but i thought "i told you so's" were saved for after the event transpired?

[Ramen]

I've gotten a Puente Robe +0 to +9 using regular elu from 0 to 7, and made it to +9 in two HD elu that I got from Daily, same with the Skull Cap I bought at +5, except that I used certs to get it to +7. It went +9 with two HD elu. =P

[lainee]

Maybe you should have waited for enriched hammer then. They put him in really often.

lololololol x 1000

[Xellie]

thank you, thank you. I'll be here until the end of the week.

[Akshaysanwal]

Really nice one Xellie

[Niji]

Yeah but...you don't have to pay to get hd's. I'm so confused T_T. Zeny broke? How does a gm go zeny broke?

they do have personal accounts not just the gm accounts....

Maybe you should have waited for enriched hammer then. They put him in really often.

haha that is epic nice one!!!

[Pandapoop]

thank you, thank you. I'll be here until the end of the week.

I just realized they don't tell us when Enriched Hammer is gonna come anymore - they just tell us when he's gonna leave - I think they even called it "he is taking a break".

[Akshaysanwal]

I just realized they don't tell us when Enriched Hammer is gonna come anymore - they just tell us when he's gonna leave - I think they even called it "he is taking a break".

Don't worry. He will be back next next week maintainence ^^

[Randomititiy]

After he is done resting his gluts from the over use

[Xellie]

I like to refer to it as a "no Enriched hammer event"

[Kadelia]

it was originally supposed to be an event then like every 3rd week he was in for 2 weeks

[CeruleanGamer]

Am i to take this a proof that Valkyrie value items over player skill?

The gears dont make the player, look at Yagamiyoyo (not actual name but you know whom im talking about)

I have no doubt that his gears are extremely good, its a shame all he dose with the is CC - GoH, and in WoE he cant even get one off before hes brought down.

You cant possibly be oblivious to the fact that gears DO matter in a competitive WoE setting. Someone who has a +12 kvm and integrates his so called "skill" can kill significantly more people than someone with the same skill but only a +9 kvm. I will admit, I regularly check people's equipment windows because sometimes they forget to set it to private. Having knowledge of someone's equipment allows my guild which targets to prioritize in WoE. It's a battle out there, inside WoE as well as outside.

[Andini]

you guys kill each other and are very trigger happy when opposing shadow chasers clearly shadow form your guildies. i assume valk guild is easily the best geared guild on the server. is that why you prioritize your own members?

Edited by Andini, 23 March 2012 - 08:03 AM.

[CeruleanGamer]

you guys kill each other and are very trigger happy when opposing shadow chasers clearly shadow form your guildies. i assume valk guild is easily the best geared guild on the server. is that why you prioritize your own members?

Not really. I should tell my guildies to leave their equipment window open just to show you guys how you are all dying to people with +7s and eat popcorn while doing it.

[Randomititiy]

Not really. I should tell my guildies to leave their equipment window open just to show you guys how you are all dying to people with +7s and eat popcorn while doing it.

I want to see the eating popcorn and woeing part

[Andini]

damn +7s?!! im only at +3s

Edited by Andini, 23 March 2012 - 08:35 AM.