91 replies to this topic

[Akihiro]

Zen, as doddler stated, is a very good change for Suras considering how ridiculous suras are lately.

Energy coat, well I can deal with that honestly, it's really not that bad, plus with sacrament it should only be a 2.5 second cast, which is pretty nice.

I'd be pretty okay with jRO's version of the first and second class skills, so long as Zen stays the way it is.

[Ramen]

Soul Strike
-It costs 1.5x the cost of a bolt
-It's rarely the element you want (spirit, everything but undead resists this)
-It can only do half the damage output of a bolt cast
-It has an abnormally long aftercast delay for a bolt

All of these drawbacks are because you're supposed to be able to lob this in a tiny fraction of a second, even at low level, either as a combo finisher, or to instantly remove a minor threat. If one mage spell should have NO fixed cast time whatsoever, this is it. Fixed cast takes what was already a very niche spell intended for combo-heavy players, and turns it into just plain garbage.

Energy Coat
-This lasts 5 minutes (insanely long for an RO buff) yet costs a measly 30 SP (less than 1 tick of regen for a even a 2nd job), because you're supposed to be able to maintain it easily, provided you have the mana to keep it running. The fact that it not only drains a percentage of your mana per hit, but gets weaker as your mana bar gets lower, is of course both the balancing factor and true cost of this spell.
They changed it to 100% fixed cast, causing you to annoy your party every time you cast the skill that's supposed to keep you alive. I could see the standard 20% on it just to discourage the practice of "hey, I better coat for this one fight", but 5 seconds is insanely overkill.

AV may have been a bit too strong pre-renewal, but the new version makes it a trans skill that has the same purpose as a 1st job skill... and is worse at it. That makes no sense, whatsoever.

One thing I suggest is that they list all of the skills, and their current fixed and total cast times. Otherwise, we can't really comment until we see each skill by trial and error.

I agree with the comment about Soul Strike, though I'd like to point out that Soul Strike is a Ghost Element spell that deals 50% more damage to undead. There is not a single element that has reductions against it except for neutral, and since player characters are (I believe) neutral 1, this means they would take 25% less dmg from it. When I mained my hwiz in WoE, it was my spell of choice in strings if we already had a bunch of other hwiz precasting. It absolutely destroyed anyone wearing undead, and ghostring, and it was the one spell that I was sure to always hit someone with since it is not negated by any element. I would like to see the fixed cast time completely removed from the skill. Most people regard it as a trash skill in the first place and don't bother getting aside from the pre-req for Safety Wall, however, there are some people like myself who recognize this skill for what it's worth and would be fairly upset about such an unnecessary nerf.

[Kadelia]

there are some people like myself who recognize this skill for what it's worth and would be fairly upset about such an unnecessary nerf.

See, I don't think it was a nerf at all. I think it was completely unintentional out of negligence. Fixed casting was implemented due to the big picture of balancing 3rd jobs but very little mind was paid toward how fixed casting would hurt many 2nd job skills which relied on minimizable cast times to be useful. In fact, I am willing to bet most of these concerns are on the wayside because the developers have their hands full balancing the 3rd jobs and tweaking the overall mechanics of the game. Like many bugs in RO these won't be addressed until late or never, much like piece or other skills never fixed. We need to fix this ourselves instead of relying on kRO to make the necessary changes.

[Seraphiel]

Arrow repel is another almost useless skill with such a long casting time. Devs should get rid off fixed cast time of 1st and 2nd jobs' skills.

[Kadelia]

lol that's another one I didn't think about. Yeah, arrow repel is useless with added delay.

[DeltaRay]

I just went over all the skills and I Find the following skills stupid to have fixed cast time.
Focused Arrow strike
Falcon Assault?
Ganbantein
Gravity Field
Energy Coat(specially when it can be dispelled easily, 5 second cast time really?)
Stealth?(I hear its still a long cast time, could be wrong)
Arrow Vulcan
Arrow repel
Mostly of those skills come from High Wizard(which is already gymped because of the MATK formula) and
Long range classes
I think all the fixed cast time should be removed from 1st and 2nd classesand the skilled named above.

Skills that should definitely have Fixed cast time
Asura
Acid Bomb
Zen

Edited by DeltaRay, 13 September 2010 - 11:46 PM.

[Hitotsu]

dont forget storm gust.

[Kadelia]

As mentioned previously I do not think zen or energy coat are a biproduct of the 20% fixed casting system, I believe they were specifically altered by kRO as a nerf.

[LethalJokeChar]

Regarding the Fixed casting time.. You are listing specific skills, but not specific desires for skills after cool down. All skills that have a cast bar should have an after cast delay of some sort, even if it is really short.

So what would be your desired shortening value?

Dex should NEVER make the recastability to be 0 as it scales the damage per min way to high compared to someone that just misses the instant cast. Nothing should exponentially increase the effectiveness of something with just a few stat points.

With that said, this is part where we get to make feedback and change the system, so I'm moving this down to the renewal testing where it belongs and the discussion can continue.

First, there is a very clear difference between casting time and after-cast delays. I do believe this topic was purely about the cast time and fixed cast times.

Second, because of the after-cast and animation delays, even if casting becomes instant, it doesn't just make the effectiveness exponential just like that. I would also like to point out that it is not just a "few" stat points, but rather TONS of stat points plus gears that would make instant cast possible, yet that overall would seem to weaken a character in renewal.

If there ever was anything pre-renewal that affected cast time that should have been nerfed... I'd say it would be magic strings. With the skill points and the stats invested into it, it was not very difficult to get zero cast delay just because of that.

[Kadelia]

If there ever was anything pre-renewal that affected cast time that should have been nerfed... I'd say it would be magic strings. With the skill points and the stats invested into it, it was not very difficult to get zero cast delay just because of that.

While I agree with this comment, its a tangent

Un-nerf base cast time on non-third job skills thanks! Bump for justice.

[DrAzzy]

There needs to be some intelligent look-over on skills with fixed cast. Some make sense with it (certainly zen does).

But some do not, particularly the archer class skills, which had cast times balanced for charachters with 120-150 dex... That really seems to be be the story of renewal. Things being changed, with a real lack of people giving a thoughful consideration of the results.

However, I think this discussion is somewhat premature - until we have an idea of how much damage the skills can do, and such...

[Tirasu]

In general I feel almost every skill needs there fixed cast time changed on first and second class skills, some (mostly magic) to have 10% fixed cast, while others (such as melee) should have no fixed cast. I have done a complete list with the formula of Fixed and Floating cast time for every 1st and 2nd class skill with a cast time, If i've not put in the formula it will have a note if it's shortened fixed or removed fixed. Skills that are repeated (such as safety wall and heavens drive) I have put ONCE on the job class that appears first on the list, and should be treated the same as such.
Heres the list.

First Job:
Mage
Cold bolt - (0.035*Skill level) second fixed cast (0.315*skill level) Floating cast time (10% Fixed)
Fire bolt - (0.035*Skill level) second fixed cast (0.315*skill level) Floating cast time (10% Fixed)
Lightning Bolt - (0.035*Skill level) second fixed cast (0.31*skill level) second Floating cast time (10% Fixed)
Energy coat - 5 second fixed cast time (It was an intentional change on kRO's part)
Fireball Levels 1 ~ 5 - 0.15 second fixed cast time, 1.35 second floating cast time (10% Fixed)
Fireball Levels 6 ~10 - 0.1 second fixed cast time, 0.9 second Floating cast time (10% Fixed)
Firewall - Same as pre-renewal, No fixed cast.
Frost Diver - 0.08 second Fixed cast time, 0.72 second Floating cast time (~10% Fixed)
Napalm Beat Levels 1~5 - 0.1 second Fixed cast time, 0.9 ~ 0.8 Floating cast time (10% Fixed)
Napalm beat Levels 6~10 - 0.0 Second fixed cast time, 0.8 ~ 0.4 Floating cast time (0% Fixed)
Safety Wall Level 1~7 - *Math for this is too difficult for me* but 10% Fixed cast.
Safety Wall Level 8~10 - 0.1 second Fixed cast time, 0.9 second Floating cast time (10%)
Soul Strike - Same as pre-renewal, No fixed cast.
Stone curse - 0.1 Second fixed cast time, 0.9 second Floating cast time (10%)
Thunder storm - (Skill level*0.1) fixed cast time, (skill level*0.9) Floating cast time (10%)

Archer
Arrow repel - Same as pre-renewal, No fixed cast.

Acolyte
Angelus - Same as pre-renewal, No fixed cast.(Cast time is too short)
Aqua Benedicta - No fixed cast (I shouldn't need to explain why this is a bad idea)
Decrease Agi - 0.1 second fixed cast 0.9 second Floating cast. (10% Fixed)
Holy light - 0.2 second fixed cast, 1.8 second Floating case. (10% Fixed)
Increase Agi - 0.1 second fixed cast, 0.9 second Floating cast. (10% Fixed)
Signum Crusis - Same as pre-renewal, No fixed cast.
Warp Portal - 0.1 Second fixed cast, 0.9 second Floating cast. (10% Fixed)

Second Job:
Knight
Bowling Bash - 0.7 Second Floating Cast time. (Same as Pre-renewal) No fixed cast.
Brandish Spear - 1 Second floating Cast time. (Same as Pre-renewal) No fixed cast.
Charge Attack - Same as pre-renewal, No fixe cast.

Crusader
Grand cross - 0.1 Second fixed cast time, 0.9 second Floating cast (10% fixed)
Sacrifice - 0.3 second Fixed cast time, 2.8 Second Floating cast (10% fixed)

Wizard
Earth Spike - (0.07*Skill level) second Fixed cast,(0.63*Skill Level) second Floating cast (10% fixed)
Fire Pillar - *Math for this is too difficult for me* but 10% Fixed cast.
Frost Nova - 0.6 / 0.55 / 0.5 / 0.45 / 0.4 second Fixed cast time, 5.4 / 4.95 / 4.5 / 4.05 / 3.6 Second floating cast (10% fixed cast)
Heavens Drive - (0.1*skill level) Second fixed cast, (0.9*skill level) second Floating cast (10% fixed cast)
Jupitel Thunder - (0.2 + (Skill level*0.05)) Second fixed Cast, (1.8 + (Skill level*.45)) seconds Floating cast (10% fixed cast)
Lord of Vermillion - *Too lazy to do formula* 10% fixed cast time
Meteor Storm - *Too lazy to do formula* 10% fixed cast time
Sighttrasher - 0.05 second fixed cast time, 0.45 second Floating cast time (10% fixed cast)
Storm Gust - *Too lazy to do formula* 10% fixed cast time
Water ball - (0.1*Skill level) second Fixed cast time, (0.9*skill level) second Floating cast time (10% fixed)

Sage
Endow Blaze - 0.3 second Fixed cast time, 2.7 second Floating cast time (10 fixed)
Endow Quake - 0.3 second Fixed cast time, 2.7 second Floating cast time (10 fixed)
Endow Tornado - 0.3 second Fixed cast time, 2.7 second Floating cast time (10 fixed)
Endow Tsunami - 0.3 second Fixed cast time, 2.7 second Floating cast time (10 fixed)
Deludge - 0.5 second Fixed cast time, 4.5 Second floating cast time (10% fixed)
Volcano - 0.5 second Fixed cast time, 4.5 Second floating cast time (10% fixed)
Whirlwind - 0.5 second Fixed cast time, 4.5 Second floating cast time (10% fixed)
Magnetic Earth - 0.5 second Fixed cast time, 4.5 Second floating cast time (10% fixed)
Dispell - 0.2 second Fixed cast time, 1.8 second floating cast time (10% fixed)
Spell Breaker - 0.7 second Floating cast time (Same as Pre-renewal) No fixed cast. except now it will get used

Hunter
Blitz Beat - 1.5 second floating cast time (Same as Pre-renewal) No fixed cast.

Bard/Dancer
Sling Arrow - 1.5 second floating cast time (Same as Pre-renewal) No fixed cast.

Alchemist
Acid Terror - 1 Second floating cast time (Same as Pre-renewal) No fixed cast.
Alchemist Weapon - 2 second floating cast time (Same as Pre-renewal) No fixed cast.
Biochemical Helm - 2 second floating cast time (Same as Pre-renewal) No fixed cast.
Bomb - 1 second floating cast time (Same as Pre-renewal) No fixed cast.
Summon Marine sphere - 2 second floating cast time (Same as Pre-renewal) No fixed cast.
Synthesized Shield - 2 second floating cast time (Same as Pre-renewal) No fixed cast.
Synthetic Armor - 2 second floating cast time (Same as Pre-renewal) No fixed cast.

Assassin
Venom Splasher - 1 second floating cast time (Same as Pre-renewal) No fixed cast.

Rogue
Divest Helm - 1 second floating cast time (Same as Pre-renewal) No fixed cast.
Divest Shield- 1 second floating cast time (Same as Pre-renewal) No fixed cast.
Divest Armor - 1 second floating cast time (Same as Pre-renewal) No fixed cast.
Divest Weapon - 1 second floating cast time (Same as Pre-renewal) No fixed cast.

Priest
Kyrie Eleison - 0.2 Second fixed cast time, 1.8 second Floating cast time (10% fixed cast)
Magnuse Exorcismus - 1 second fixed cast time, 14 second Floating cast time (6.6% Fixed cast time)
Resurrection - Same as Pre-renewal, No fixed cast as level 4 instant-casts it.
Sanctuary - 0.5 second fixed cast time, 4.5 second floating cast time (10% fixed cast)
Turn undead - 0.1 second fixed cast time, 0.9 second floating cast time (10% fixed cast)

Monk
Guillotine Fist - As current Renewal
Mental Strength - 0.5 second Fixed cast time, 4.5 second Floating cast time (10% fixed)
Occult Impaction - 0.1 second Fixed cast time, 0.9 second Floating cast time (10% fixed).
Root - Same as Pre-renewal, No fixed cast.
Spiritual Sphere Absorbtion - 0.2 second fixed cast time, 1.8 second floating cast time (10% fixed)
Summon Spirit Sphere - 0.1 second fixed cast time, 0.9 second Floating cast time (10% fixed)
Throw Spirit Sphere - *Too lazy to do formula* 10% fixed cast time

For trans class skills, The general Idea as above. Swordsman, Archers, theifs and Merchants have No fixed cast time, Mages and Acolytes magic skills have 10% fixed time, excluding Zen which was changed to 100% fixed cast, same as energy coat. I got too lazy to list and do all the trans skills ontop of that

TL;DR In general all classes that arn't Acolyte or Mage based should have fixed cast removed on there casting time skills, while Mage and Aco skills have a reduced 10% fixed casting time instead of the full 20%

Edited by Tirasu, 14 September 2010 - 10:09 AM.

[DrAzzy]

I'm not sure how aggressive we need to be on nerfing acid bomb with a long cast time - it's damage potential has already pretty badly owned i reckon.

OF COURSE THERE'S NO NPC SELLING ACID BOMBS SO WE CAN'T TEST IT!

[Akin]

Regarding the Fixed casting time.. You are listing specific skills, but not specific desires for skills after cool down. All skills that have a cast bar should have an after cast delay of some sort, even if it is really short.

So what would be your desired shortening value?

Dex should NEVER make the recastability to be 0 as it scales the damage per min way to high compared to someone that just misses the instant cast. Nothing should exponentially increase the effectiveness of something with just a few stat points.

With that said, this is part where we get to make feedback and change the system, so I'm moving this down to the renewal testing where it belongs and the discussion can continue.

I don't agree that all skills that have a cast bar should have an after cast delay, and there are skills in the game that exhibit this behavior. Holy Light is a good example. Either way, this argument doesn't really pertain to this discussion about the rationality of having a 20/80 cast time on certain second job skills and I don't think anyone is arguing that we should change after cast delays on these skills. However, I do agree that DEX should not reduce cast time to 0; That's, IMO, the main reason for renewal anyway, to remove instant cast.

That being said, I'm not fully on board with completely removing cast times or even just fixed cast times for all the skills listed below or similar skills (with some exceptions). I'll use DeltaRay's list to give my suggestions:

Arrow Repel: My opinion is to give it a 0.5 second fixed cast, no delay, and let it ignore defense.

Focused Arrow Strike: To me, the word focus implies concentration while aiming, there should be a cast time (maybe a 2 seconds 20/80 cast), but no cast/reuse delay.
Falcon Assault: This on the other hand is just a gesture to have your bird attack, there should be no cast time and instead of a cast delay, a reuse delay (maybe 1-2 seconds) that would "allow" your bird to get back into position (obviously there is no reality in RO mechanics but this way they can fix the DPS without worrying that strings would negate the delay).

Ganbantein: ME now has a fixed cast time, a skill like this that can counter it should as well, especially since ME doesn't block Warlock skills anyway. Leave it.
Gravitational Field: Leave in the cast time (especially now that it's stronger in Renewal) but reduce the total cast time to 2 or 3 seconds (20/80).

Energy Coat: This skill to me is as important to a glass cannon class like the mage as bash is to a melee class like swordsman. I'd give it a 1 second cast time (20/80) with no delay.

Stealth: With GTB and link this skill is pretty OP during seige, I say don't change it. That or increase the SP drain during seige and disallow SP items while hidden and unhide the Stalker when SP is gone.

Arrow Vulcan: Even as a Minstrel, I'm fine with a normal 20/80 cast time here, but testing it on Ygg proves that it's a bit too long. Reduce the cast time to 1 second considering the long animation delay (1 AV per 4 seconds is still much lower DPS than most classes).
Melody Strike/Sling Arrow: This is our only method of attack while doing a solo song and the only instrument/whip attack skill outside of AV. Just make it like bash and have it affected only by animation delay.

Zen: Completely fixed cast time here is fine, exactly for the reasons Doddler mentioned. 2 seconds is fine and gives opponents time to knock them out of the cast (even in the old skill descriptions, it stated that zen was better than SSS, but risky because it wasn't un-interruptable).
Asura: 0.5 second fixed cast time, and give it a 10-15 second reuse delay. Anything longer and Monks will never get a fist off. People will either hide if they don't have Ruwach up, or they'll just whack you to break cast.

Acid Bomb: Same as Asura Strike with a fixed cast time and a long reuse delay. It's retarded when a Biochem can stand in strings with a hammer and chuck bombs non-stop, but it shouldn't stop them from using other Alchemist skill in the meantime.

[Heimdallr]

From my perspective the skill Cool down (after cast delay) having a specific time delay is intentional and desirable.

The current rounds of people modifying the client to give faster skill animations is rendered moot when the system won't let the cast go off faster regardless of if you are finished with the animation or not.

Now the discussion is, what is a reasonable cast cool down? I do recognize that stuff like bash should not have a 1 second pause afterwards before another skill can be used.

Cast Time = Fixed Cast Time + Reducable Cast Time

Skill Cool Down = the time from when a skill is casted to when another skill can be started.

There was another modifier possible in the non-renewal that was animation delay, this seems closely linked with aspd. So a wiz at 190 aspd could instant cast more Meteor Storms than a wiz at 185 aspd also with instant cast. This hopefully is a moot variable now.

So what parts of Arrow Vulcan etc is needing updated?

[Kadelia]

Cast Time = Fixed Cast Time + Reducable Cast Time

Skill Cool Down = the time from when a skill is casted to when another skill can be started.

So what parts of Arrow Vulcan etc is needing updated?

I really don't get where you are confused, Heim-chan >_<

Desired change highlighted in your quote =/





Arrow Vulcan

Pre-Renewal:

Base Cast Time: 6 Seconds variable cast that can be reduced to 0 so easily t can be argued its intentional or planned.
Cooldown: 2.8 seconds
Animation: 3 seconds (editing client does not help this one!)

Post-Renewal
Base Cast Time: 1.2 seconds fixed + 4.8 seconds variable (which is hard to reduce below 1 second or so as a non-3rd gypsy)
Cooldown: 2.8 seconds
Animation: 3 seconds (editing client does not help this one!)

The blanket addition of "fixed casting" to all skills in the game regardless of whether or not the skill required such a change, is what ruined this skill. I DARE you to try using Arrow Vulcan or Slinging Arrow on yggdrasil in game yourself Heim. Dare you. And tell me you haven't switched back to double strafe within a short time.

Edited by Jaye, 14 September 2010 - 01:06 PM.

[Akin]

From my perspective the skill Cool down (after cast delay) having a specific time delay is intentional and desirable.

The current rounds of people modifying the client to give faster skill animations is rendered moot when the system won't let the cast go off faster regardless of if you are finished with the animation or not.

Now the discussion is, what is a reasonable cast cool down? I do recognize that stuff like bash should not have a 1 second pause afterwards before another skill can be used.

Cast Time = Fixed Cast Time + Reducable Cast Time

Skill Cool Down = the time from when a skill is casted to when another skill can be started.

There was another modifier possible in the non-renewal that was animation delay, this seems closely linked with aspd. So a wiz at 190 aspd could instant cast more Meteor Storms than a wiz at 185 aspd also with instant cast. This hopefully is a moot variable now.

So what parts of Arrow Vulcan etc is needing updated?

What people seem to want is a removal of the Fixed Cast Time portion of the skills in question to make them completely variable, which I don't completely agree with as instant cast could once again be achievable. I just believe that the overall cast time should be reduced to 1 or 2 seconds while maintaining the fixed and variable portions.

edit: Jayed beat me to it.

Edited by Akin, 14 September 2010 - 01:03 PM.

[Kadelia]

I fail to see the reasoning behind 0 second cast time on archer skills being bad? It was like this for 9 years and nobody ever complained about archer-types having an unfair cast time advantage?

[Doddler]

I don't think people want cast times to be faster, I think people want skills to have a higher portion of their cast time be variable instead of fixed. Fixed serves a purpose and most of the changes gravity made I agree with. Some of them though are kind of harsh, like the sniper ones. They went from super fast attack job to super slow.

Edited by Doddler, 14 September 2010 - 01:43 PM.

[Clogon]

And once Traps get nerf Snipers get EVEN SLOWER! But yeah Sniper's skills have a huge fixed Casting time. FAS for example has a 1s Fixed Casting which is much higher than 20%. A 20% Fixed casting is actually fine since it'll be reducable to 10% using a Party. But a 66% Fixed casting time makes FAS pretty much useless even fully buffed. Then there is Windwalk and Falcon Assault too.

[Kadelia]

if the staff is unwilling to remove fixed casting, base cast times for skills should be modified.

I'd like to see 0 second cast times (like double strafe or bash) for these skills:
Focused Arrow Strike - has a cooldown
Falcon Assault - has a cooldown
Charge Arrow/Arrow Repel - aspd dependent
Slinging Arrow/Melody Strike - aspd dependent
Arrow Vulcan - has a cooldown and animation that cannot be bypassed

Limiting re-use factor is cooldown and aspd on these skills.

0.5 second time (0.1 second fixed 0.4 second floating)
Soul Strike - has a cooldown

1 second time (0.2 second fixed, 0.8 floating)
Ganbantein - not sure what the limiting factor on this is
Occult Impaction - has an animation delay that can be bypassed
Rapid Smiting - has a short cooldown

Many others are fine as-is in the 20/80 system such as zen and gfist. Those are two skills that the 20/80 system seemed to be designed for. Whether some renewal nerfs such as 5 sec energy coat or 2 second fixed zen are fair is neither here nor there. My beef in this thread is with the 20/80 system.

[Wanderer]

Do not start to mess with renewal BASIC changes please, fixed cast times are GOOD and 20/80 is a reasonable value with 20 being reducable to 10 with sacrament.

Please let's not screw the basics of the new mechanics...

Edited by Wanderer, 15 September 2010 - 03:39 AM.

[Kadelia]

I am not quite sure why people get why people use "sacrament" as a justification for fixed casting. You're not going to dual an arch bishop to use slinging arrow/melody strike while soloing, which is useless with the lengthy cast bar. Pretty much anyone who is trying to justify the 20/80 system being applied to all skills hasn't tried using one of these gimped skills yet.

[Haldor]

Do not start to mess with renewal BASIC changes please, fixed cast times are GOOD and 20/80 is a reasonable value with 20 being reducable to 10 with sacrament.

Please let's not screw the basics of the new mechanics...

shut up

Seriously though. FAS is a joke now. Pretty bad when you almost need a phen on an archer class.

Edited by Haldor, 15 September 2010 - 04:01 AM.

[Wanderer]

I am not quite sure why people get why people use "sacrament" as a justification for fixed casting. You're not going to dual an arch bishop to use slinging arrow/melody strike while soloing, which is useless with the lengthy cast bar. Pretty much anyone who is trying to justify the 20/80 system being applied to all skills hasn't tried using one of these gimped skills yet.

Because we will get future patches that will allow for more reduction of both fixed and variable cast times?