214 replies to this topic

[Hitotsu]

Just so a Number actually is floating around to represent what we think of the Drop rate being nerfed to -50% if you're higher than the monster you're hunting.

The drop rate penalty was removed on 5/5/2011 and has not been reimplemented since - this thread is only of historical relevance. -Azzy

Edited by DrAzzy, 26 August 2011 - 01:01 PM.

[HugPorings]

it will make it easer fore boters that have susidel bots to lose exp to stay at set levels . or botters that have bots that keep remaking to get stuff.


Gravaty should stop making so meany things with botter loop holes in it that will benafit botters.

[Amor]

a lot of quests require items, and you can't always buy them from other players. This will be a huge inconvenience for players and should not be implemented.

[Heimdallr]

Lets discuss on how to better implement it, it does have a function, but it may be too harsh. Yes part of it I'm sure had anti-bot in mind, but I think another part of it is to get high level players to "move on". Most newer games have a system that drops the rate to 0% (or close to it) for the good stuff like equipment. This only drops to a lower rate, that perhaps there is an option with the subscription to eliminate.

[Kitten]

We can't "move on" when a good deal of our new skills require low level items to use.

The cost of these items will skyrocket... Much like the way things like Starsand, Blue Herbs, Fabric, Stems, Karvo and so on did in the past. People will still need the items, that won't change, but the number of players who can easily aquire them will drop dramatically.

The EXP penalty is enough. That tells players to more onto another map.... But the item penalty doesn't make sense for iRO. Maybe on the other versions of RO it makes more sense. But here we do not have enough new players to take off the supply burden of crafting/forging items.

We'll either have to continue to make new characters to gather items or repeatedly die to stay at that level. It will require us to use more supplies and potions while on these strictly item hunting characters since they will be at a level near to or equal to the monsters they are hunting... Thus using more of our resources. Another issue is that to botters making new characters means nothing. It only hurts the real players.

[NeoNilox]

i'd rather higher Drops when defeating a Higher lvl monster than lower Drops when defeating a Lower lvl monster

Lower teh drop rate? Forget it, who knows if it estimulates more botting (or char-restaring)

[HugPorings]

Lets discuss on how to better implement it, it does have a function, but it may be too harsh. Yes part of it I'm sure had anti-bot in mind, but I think another part of it is to get high level players to "move on". Most newer games have a system that drops the rate to 0% (or close to it) for the good stuff like equipment. This only drops to a lower rate, that perhaps there is an option with the subscription to eliminate.

And prople still play ro and stay away from newer games because ro is diffrent.
adding stuff that newer games have is not good


most of the aanti bot stuff thats added to the game only blocks old bots.
all it takes is a botter to alter abot and the anti botter stuff will only effect real players . thiss giving botters an advatige.
Can easaly block bots buy having the sever set up to detet macros.
and that will not afet any ligenamit players.inless the sever can not tell the difrent from monster ai and a bot.

[ZeroTigress]

If items that people need to craft and use skills were available on stronger monsters, then I don't have a problem with the drop rate penalty. But since that is not the case in RO and clearly nothing is going to be done to change monster drops, the penalty is a problem.

[Pingchan]

In most other games, players don't need to back track to get items like cards, herbs, and other such needed items... It definitely won't work against bots either, not even a little.

[morphine]

It would definitely do more harm than good to real players. We don't have enough fresh meat coming in for this to work at present, in my opinion.

[Mwrip]

The problem is that RO is very much built around using stuff forever. You can't "move on" from using a Raydric card. You might upgrade your plain old Immune Muffler into an Immune Nyd's Shadow Garb, but you're still using the card, because unless you literally have more zeny that can you hold on one character, there simply isn't a better card to switch to.

The game is also built around reusing items forever. Magma, Chiv, and CT are the only places you can get elu in high quantity. Even the highest level of those will be fully nerfed by the time you get to the 140s. How are we going to "move on" from Elunium, when absolutely every armor, shoe, cloak, upper headgear, and shield requires it, regardless of your or your gear's level? You can't move on from elu unless you transcend gear itself.

Smiths still need to forge elemental weapons. They can't switch to something better, because no such thing exists... and if they stop forging and focusing on upgrading, then they need ori, which has the same point as elu.
Alcies are going to make the same pots. The geneticist food skills do not replace the potions the heal with.

Almost all of the job change quests require items that are already nerfed when you start the quest. I'm pretty sure job changing isn't one of those things we're supposed to skip.

RO has very, very, few fun, story-driven quests, but those too require items that even if you start the quest at the absolute minimum allowed level, are already rate-nerfed.

As for it stopping bots... it won't. The bot owners will just run twice as many bot accounts to make up for the nerf, which real players can't do. This makes bots STRONGER, not weaker.

I understand the intent of the drop rate nerf, but RO simply isn't the kind of game it works for, at all. I don't even see it working for gear, because RO simply isn't a game that has a lot of gear in it. Check out the sellers on the test server, and you'll see just how few things there are for each slot.

[Ramen]

Also, I'd like to point out, that not all monsters that give really good experience give good drops. Typically, when people can't get parties and their only option is to solo, they either go to Anubis or Ice Titans, neither of which give drops that you could make any real zeny off of. In my case, I deliberately choose to level in a place that may be slower in exp, but has far greater returns in zeny. I did this when I was in my high 80's to mid 90's as a rogue by leveling in Rachel Sanctuary level 2. The exp wasn't great, but with regular loot alone I was making 1 mil after about 2-3 +10 stat foods, and also ended up with 1 Vanberk and 7 Isilla Cards.

So yeah, now that all of the monsters are more or less the same, I don't want my one other way to make leveling NOT painful to be taken away from me.

[Pfieffer]

Lets discuss on how to better implement it, it does have a function, but it may be too harsh. Yes part of it I'm sure had anti-bot in mind, but I think another part of it is to get high level players to "move on". Most newer games have a system that drops the rate to 0% (or close to it) for the good stuff like equipment. This only drops to a lower rate, that perhaps there is an option with the subscription to eliminate.

The biggest problem I see from higher level characters moving on is the exp slam to go with it. That means you should make every monster in ten level increments drop something as an equal. For example, the summoning quest requires you to get things from bee stings, flame hearts, and bear's footskins. This is obviously not meant for lower level characters, and where else will high level characters go to get this? Flame hearts are the best example considering they're already a pain to get. The only way I can see the drop rate "work", to get characters to move on, is to make these items available for at least ten different monsters at different levels.

With the fact that newer games dropping the rates for good stuff like equipment, I've never seen this is any MMO I've played. I've seen the drop rate lower on low level monsters as you grow levels, because you don't need anything from that monster anymore. They usually implement something better on a higher level monster so you don't want it. What high level monster am I going to hunt for a peco peco egg card, or gather 10,000 jellopy to make my Helmet of Orc Hero?

Also stating, if a new character joins the game and makes the grind to a level 55ish sin, it's going to be hard to make money considering most characters start farming, and making a decent amount of money at a higher level.

[LethalJokeChar]

Technically, drop penalty isn't the worst thing to happen to RO... I think that may even be renewal itself. But, the entire idea is still just plain stupid and bad, so worst choice picked anyway.

Anyway, look. I realize that, especially with all the level mechanics making a monster significantly lower level to you no threat at all, higher level players grinding on a map meant for much lower levels doesn't exactly come off as fair when competing with them, but all these sorts of items based off levels things have never really applied to RO. There are just too many unique things that only certain monsters drop, cards included. If I want a raydric card or high fashion sandals, yet am too poor or do not want to pay what they are selling for, I should have every right to go hunt the things myself.

So what does this 50% rate mean? Overall, it doesn't seem THAT bad... it could be worse like 1%. But what are YOU, the RO DEVELOPERS telling us? Even though we worked our asses off to level up, we don't deserve to get these items even the slightest bit easier? When compared to someone who is, say, 40 levels lower on the same map, we should have about the exact same chance of finding an item even though I kill more?

It doesn't really make sense, OR seem fair. Right now, there is nothing wrong with a 99 hwiz going around mandragoras with a stealing clip hunting stems. The only things to stop him/her are a) bots or b] a potential to hunt something else more valuable and entertaining, which is then chosen instead.

Edited by LethalJokeChar, 14 September 2010 - 01:45 AM.

[Susan]

Drop penalty is the worst thing to happen to RO.
I dont want to make 30 Accounts with various levels and classes just so i can hunt certain items. And then Tax them 50% and then ress-kill them so they don't level up lol.
I want my High Level Characters to be able to get the BEST RATE for drops at any time.


Hopefully we won't have to pay Dollars to undo the Drop Penalty in the future or something stupid like that.

[Carlossus]

I just ran through poison spores and mobbed pretty much the entire map as a 150 mech. All I saw as I stood there was 'miss miss miss' from the spores and the odd hit of 1. Now this is because of the monsters weakening against higher level players (much like the bonus they gain attacking lower level players).

Anyways my point is, if we return completely to how it was before, this will need changing also (a big job!) as it'd make farming far too easy and mobbing like that would happen on large scales, messing up spawn tables etc and frustrating newbies levelling there..

All I can suggest is inserting drops of crafting materials into each 10 level tier of mobs. say @ 50-60 there is at least 1 mob somewhere that drops karvo, or herbs and the same with 100-110, etc etc

[Susan]

so you suggest to just implement all items being dropped by all monsters at all levels?

[Carlossus]

well for quests, review what items are needed. If its just an exp quest, you're likely not going to want to do it at lvl 130 if it gives exp suitable for a lvl 60. If it's an access quest for a dungeon, remove the item collecting for it and make it kill counts or something, or make it items also usable for crafting so you can hunt them still.

And then yes, give 1 monster at least in the tiers I mentioned a drop for a crafting item. So that if you want to you always have an option to hunt for it.


....or adjust drop rates, but also adjust penalties for hunting lower level mobs (make them slightly less weak)

[Shinobi]

I just ran through poison spores and mobbed pretty much the entire map as a 150 mech. All I saw as I stood there was 'miss miss miss' from the spores and the odd hit of 1. Now this is because of the monsters weakening against higher level players (much like the bonus they gain attacking lower level players).

Anyways my point is, if we return completely to how it was before, this will need changing also (a big job!) as it'd make farming far too easy and mobbing like that would happen on large scales, messing up spawn tables etc and frustrating newbies levelling there..
All I can suggest is inserting drops of crafting materials into each 10 level tier of mobs. say @ 50-60 there is at least 1 mob somewhere that drops karvo, or herbs and the same with 100-110, etc etc

Mobb training is bannable. Now, I realize they are very leniant on this matter but if someone is really trying to lvl they can screenshot you and send in a report. Or ask you to not mobb. (Im sure most people will stop if they see someone actually killing) Current 99 trans who farms items pre renewal can mobb up half the map also. There is no difference.

[LethalJokeChar]

It would seem to me that they definitely need to bring back the old mechanic where your defenses continually weaken when you are attacked by multiple monsters. The other things they need to keep are those annoying emotes, where the monster does /swt2 and just stops following you.

There isn't really a better way to help prevent mobbing than making it hard to get a large mob, and having that mob tear the player apart when they get the chance. Well, no other away aside from making it completely undesirable to be there anyway...

Also Susan, not quite right. More like all items will drop from various monsters across all levels. But when you think of all the forging, cooking, alchemy, and quest items... that is a LOT of crap to keep distributing throughout many monsters.Like for every level range of 10, there would have to be...

some odd plant monsters to drop stems, maneater blossoms, sharp leaves, brown root, cacao, clovers, fig leaves, huge leaves, maneater roots, mushroom spores, poison spores, raccoon leaves, and soft blades of grass.

some rocky/golem monsters to drop iron or iron ore, coal, steel, rough ori, rough elu, oridecon, elunium, gold, topaz, garnet, cursed ruby, sapphire, zircon, cracked diamond, and amethyst.

other odd undead/fish monsters to drop immortal hearts, heart of mermaid, ancient lips, anolian skin, bug legs, clam flesh, conches, dragon parts, fins, fish tails, frills, frills, gills, jack o' pumpkins, manes, moth dust, nippers, frying pans, reptile tongues, scale shell, scorpion bits, shining scales, spawns, squid ink, sticky webbed foot, tendons, tongues, and yoyo tails.

A lot of these items listed are for cooking. But I did not list them ALL, nor any item typically needed for random quests. And if you ask me, it's a LOT of items to be distributing among monsters over and over.

[Morge]

First off I definitely think the drop rate is a bad idea.

However, I do have some slightly more dynamic ideas of changing it than just removing it all together.

1. Bubble gum negates the level requirements of drop rates.
2. Expanded classes (maybe just super novices) are not effected by level requirements.
3. Quests could be implemented that negate the level reqs for a limited amount of time.

I could definitely see using bubble gum to negate requirments working well on the free server, giving expanded classes such a valuable buff would increase their usefullness and give players a good reason to play them in renewal.

[Carlossus]

Like the bubble gum idea

Other ideas I had recently include:

1: Having a 'token' drop off all common mobs at all levels that can be traded in for said crafting items at an NPC. Maybe make tokens tradable for non crafters to profit.

2: Creating accessories, like for instance 'Herbalists Ring' or something which adds random herb/spore etc drops from kills that usually give drops at your level. Can make it so there's a quest to get to the accessory or something so it requires a little work to obtain first?

I admit my previous idea was rubbish when looking at logistics of implementing it, but hopefully us all banging our heads together like this results in a better system then what is currently on renewal

[Soukosa]

For those of you that think that copying quest items over and over again through out the various levels will work... take into consideration that there's over 800 different items used by quests on iRO right now before renewal. Removing the item requirements for quests if you're a high enough level isn't wise either as it steals from the experience of having to do the quest. Plus what are you gonna do about headgear quests? Especially the Orc Hero one. Its not gonna make sense to just give any old monster Orc Vouchers to drop. So make more orcs you say? So past High Orcs we get Super Orcs? Mega Orcs? Super Duper Mega Orcs? Also bear in mind that mosnter HP scales up with level. Do you really want to get 10k drops from a monster with 50k+ HP? Yeah...

As its been stated many times by now, mechanics from the other more modern MMOs don't work out for RO as they were designed quite differently. The exp penalty system is just one of the few exceptions to what can work here.

[Hrothmund]

Lets discuss on how to better implement it, it does have a function, but it may be too harsh. Yes part of it I'm sure had anti-bot in mind, but I think another part of it is to get high level players to "move on". Most newer games have a system that drops the rate to 0% (or close to it) for the good stuff like equipment. This only drops to a lower rate, that perhaps there is an option with the subscription to eliminate.

While thats true in terms of zero'ing out the drops, In most of those games (Aion/Requiem being my main exp) a level 50 char has absolutely no reason to want lvl 20 gear since they're pretty useless once you outlevel them. old gear is always replaced by higher level gear that does the same thing with better stats.

RO is very different from this trend in that high level players find extremely low level stuff neccessary (like edp/bomb ingredients or quests) That simply doesnt happen in these other games. Having to make chars of a certain level to hunt certain stuff really isnt fun, its hard enough to get people to supply the demand for some stuff without putting additional obstacles in their way.

The problem as I see it is that kRO has implemented one half of the equation (drop penalty) without implementing the other half of the equation (alternative sources of low level loot).

Keep in mind that this really doesnt affect Valk server at all (for obvious reasons) and there really arent that many chars below 90 on Ymir, and any that are will quickly level past that with renewals exp curve. I wouldnt worry to much about drop penalties if it only appled heavily to OC'd loot but left "good" equipment mostly untouched.

[DrAzzy]

The drop penalty would be fine (in the sense that the game would function, like other games often do, not that I don't prefer the old-RO model) if RO had been built for that from the ground up, made to insure that high level chars don't need low level items.

RO instead has 7 years of quests, skills, and consumables that high level players want (and are meant to want), and which are still dropped by low level monsters.
If there was a huge tide of low level players hunting these, this would be fine, but we're more than an order of magnitude away from this, and new players don't want to hunt the stuff that gives the low level drops anyway.
And so, the result is that people hunt the stuff they need with characters higher leveled than the monsters, by a large margin. On valk they bot, and on ymir they do it by hand (and supplies are more expensive).

By forcing players to use chars of a specific level to hunt the items they need on their much higher level charachters, PEOPLE WILL HAVE TO REPEATEDLY REMAKE CHARACTERS TO HUNT SUPPLIES. And of course humans won't want to do that, so there will be much more demand for bots. Either way, this will make supplies even harder to obtain.

And, that's ignoring the issue of item mixing quests requiring drops from multiple level ranges.


What's most insane about this whole thing, is that the developers havn't abandoned the things causing the problem in the first place, even in their new development. Look at the Genetic crafting items (The special consumables and stuff) all require consumables and common drops, which people won't be able to hunt anymore....


SO - CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHAT THE PURPOSE OF THIS IS?

Lets discuss on how to better implement it, it does have a function, but it may be too harsh. Yes part of it I'm sure had anti-bot in mind, but I think another part of it is to get high level players to "move on". Most newer games have a system that drops the rate to 0% (or close to it) for the good stuff like equipment. This only drops to a lower rate, that perhaps there is an option with the subscription to eliminate.

It's not going to be effective as an anti-bot measure, i'm afraid. I think it will just push up demand for more botting, and more sophisticated bots (with macro char create+delete and auto-switching lockmap as the bot levels). So instead of having unsophisiticated bots on one map, level 99 hunting weakass monsters, we'll have clever bots wandering rune-midgard on 50 different maps. On valk atleast.

I thought the level-based penalty to exp was there to encourage high level players to move on?
Regardless, "moving on" makes no sense when you need to get items from that monster!

I don't think we are worried so much about equipment, but maybe we should be - especially for the really low drop rate items. How will people get cards, for example? Especially with 1x rates now apparently giving close to 1% exp as high as 6-7x, it sounds like there will be a lot less monsters getting killed in the course of leveling. Was handling of rare drops adjusted? If so, how? If not, this change will make getting rares go from painful and slow, to nigh impossible.

A few other problems:
Herb plants should be exempt in general - otherwise what's the point of the Plant Cultivation skill, which will be used to summon plants (very low level), but can only be used by level 6x+ trans, and plenty of much higher level classes will want to use it... Are we all expected to make novices to kill the plants? That's madness. And what's the point of putting plants onto high level maps when the people there can't get anything when they kill them? Currently, the plants on high level maps are "distracters", little temptations that spice up activity there...

WoE Treasure Chests MUST be exempt (surely they are on kRO?)



Any solution will need a way for someone on a level 150 char (because all MMOs are endgame focused) to:
Hunt Blue/White herbs, Honey, and other SP items efficiently.
Hunt Alchemist/Biochem/Genetic ammo efficiently
Hunt rares relevant to their level effectively
Open castle treasure boxes

And preferably, kill plants and get loots from them normally (because it's fun to have tempting blue/shining plants say, in Odin3, while very rarely getting to kill them, because you've got bigger (boxier, bouncier, holy-skill-spamming) fish to fry)



I really do think that the best way to address all these problems is just to axe the drop penalty system in general, either through completely eliminating it, or almost totally defanging it so that the maximum drop penalty is relatively small (80% of normal, as opposed to currently, when it seems to go all the way down to near-zero)...

Edited by DrAzzy, 14 September 2010 - 06:50 AM.