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#1 joonny

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 01:21 PM

not sure if this is intended since manhole should put you out of play
but a shadow chaser can manhole you then shadow form you and then you take the dmg he/she takes withot ability to do anything beside potting(maybe rk excluded)
current popular "strategy" is: manhole then traps around then shadow form and walk through the traps with whatever increases dmg to kill the person in manhole
but from what i think you shouldnt be able to attack/buff/debuff/whatever the person in manhole since just rk can do something with runes cause they are items(although havent tested that since lack of creating material specially elder branch/light particle)

intended or bug?

Edited by joonny, 16 September 2010 - 01:22 PM.

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#2 Sera

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 01:53 PM

I cannot hover over manholes, which is pretty gay.
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#3 CocaCola

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 02:06 PM

sounds like its working as intended. SC are the crazy insane to 1v1 in pvp now, about time rogue classes get a pvp buff.
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#4 Tirasu

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 02:50 PM

I cannot hover over manholes, which is pretty gay.


I personally think this should be changed. You can hover over a bear traps (ankle snare) yet you can't float over a hole in the ground

I also think that shadow form being used when every other skill in the game cannot, seems a bit unfair, it should be changed so you cannot shadow form them while in the manhole, to give other players a chance to fight back. Aswell as letting Ganbaiten/Magnetic earth/New skills that remove manholes on the ground free players already trapped

The only real way to kill a Shadow chaser 1-1 is to catch them by surprise and kill them in one hit before they can shadowform (snap with sura for example) Or a sorcerer who can manage to stay on Mag.Earth AND trap him with there wind skill AND get close enough while his trapped for there spirit to hit him so he can't shadow-form kill you while your in cast range.


On the subject of manholes, Disable it's use on players outside PvP / GvG designated areas when you can manhole trap someone into a warp-portal when the're trying to kill an MvP to "steal" the MvP away is blatently wrong.

Edited by Tirasu, 16 September 2010 - 02:56 PM.

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#5 Sera

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 03:32 PM

I can easily catch them by surprise. Too bad I can't do -_- about it though.
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#6 Hrothmund

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 04:10 PM

Can another shadow chaser cast shadow form on the chaser who has your guy in manhole?

If so you could easily kill them that way, since if it functions anything like sac/physical/magical reflect abilities, damage can only be passed on once (like final fantasy rules).

Or just get two people to do enough to KO him at the same time, losing your trapped guy in the process. Sorta like using Gfist on a RG.
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#7 Sera

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 04:13 PM

That scenario can happen. One person can shadow form a drone, and the first person is then in turn shadow formed. The damage is indeed only passed once though.
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#8 Jatzu

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 04:41 PM

I know a good way to balance shadow form.

Instead of the target takes ALL the damage how about the 2 targets both take the damage or both take half the dmg each.
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#9 GuardianTK

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:01 PM

It's not like Manhole lasts long.....does it? :wah:
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#10 Ramen

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:48 PM

I love how everyone is crying over Shadow Chasers. Most of the issues that you're concerned about are things that are extremely easy to screen shot and report. It's not like manholing you over to a warp portal is going to be an extremely fast process. As for Shadow Form, there is no reason it shouldn't work exactly the way it does now. Stalkers have pretty much always been a good 1 v 1 class, at least if you had the right build and actually knew how to play stalkers. I'm not sure why that should change now. Also, in case you missed it, our entire job tree is designed to annoy and irritate people. Looks like it's working, eh?
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#11 Jatzu

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 04:02 AM

Its making them invulnerable just because it fits with there irritating motif doesn't mean it should not be reviewed.

It's not like Manhole lasts long.....does it? :wah:



It lasts more then 5 seconds and they can just keep spamming it on you.

Edited by Jatzu, 17 September 2010 - 04:03 AM.

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#12 Clogon

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:32 AM

Just Ctrl+click them. <.< It only lasts 2~7 hits and costs a ton of SP! (For Shadow FOrm)

But yeah Man Hole + Shadow Form is unbeatable except with Magnetic Earth or GTB. Chasers can easily copy Hunter Traps and be int dex vit to kill almost anyone!

Edited by Clogon, 17 September 2010 - 07:36 AM.

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#13 Viri

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:44 AM

Everyone can kill almost anyone, I agree tho that you probably shouldn't be able to shadowform people in manhole. But leave the 2 skills alone otherwise, they're pretty balanced if you can't use any skills on a manholed person.
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#14 Clogon

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:10 AM

Man Hole is far from fine. Chaser's can permanently lock 2 enemy players and just spam Strip Accessory till it works. Then once WoE comes they will be able to permanently Manhole barricades. <.<
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#15 Viri

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 09:24 AM

It shouldn't work on boss property, being able to lock 2 players is fine imo.
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#16 ClydeDenton

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 09:50 AM

Manhole - Shadowform has to be broken. Theres no way around it, and no way anyone can rationalize it period. Now, permanently locking on the other hand is debatable. Taking into consideration that once your in it, you can be in it indefinately with any chance to escape without any outside help, I personally say that's brokens too, probably needs a longer cooldown time, maybe 1 sec in between each manhole or something. I've even been manhole - warpportaled combo a few times already. If its not fixed, then this kind of behavior is whats to be expected once it hits main. Since you know, the RO population is notorious for doing shady things like that, and then have the audacity to say "L2p". Since they're doing skill fixes atm, I really have no doubt that this is one of those skills that will be corrected, aswell as White Imprison / grav bs.

Edited by ClydeDenton, 17 September 2010 - 09:52 AM.

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#17 yoon

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 09:54 AM

You guys are idiots. For the longest time, stalker were useless cept for status and fullstripping..Now we finally have something going for us and you're gonna all cry for this being overpowered?
What about Snap+GoH spam? What about white prison+grav/soul expansion spam? What about vaccuum+psychic/grave/diamonddust combo? Everything in renewal is suppose to make you set your skills in combos. Alot of classes have their imbalanceness. Just wait til you see Genetic with Walls of thorn comboing with acid bomb. Keep the skill the way it is...its MEANT to be this way.
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#18 Ultimate

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:10 AM

sounds like its working as intended. SC are the crazy insane to 1v1 in pvp now, about time rogue classes get a pvp buff.


strip? now they can just manhole, strip, push into traps, and kill
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#19 CocaCola

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:18 AM

strip? now they can just manhole, strip, push into traps, and kill

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and having status immune chars stops anything a stalker can do atm.

Edited by CocaCola, 17 September 2010 - 10:19 AM.

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#20 HugPorings

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:28 AM

I cannot hover over manholes, which is pretty gay.

the man hole is a hole. meaning that the bodem is osably an 8 foot drop.
if you huver over the ground at like 1 foot and over traps. you should still fall into the manhole. you be in it hovering 1 foot from the bottom
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#21 Doddler

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:19 PM

You guys are idiots. For the longest time, stalker were useless cept for status and fullstripping..Now we finally have something going for us and you're gonna all cry for this being overpowered?
What about Snap+GoH spam? What about white prison+grav/soul expansion spam? What about vaccuum+psychic/grave/diamonddust combo? Everything in renewal is suppose to make you set your skills in combos. Alot of classes have their imbalanceness. Just wait til you see Genetic with Walls of thorn comboing with acid bomb. Keep the skill the way it is...its MEANT to be this way.


I don't really have an issue with the shadow form combo myself, but I do dislike manhole. Well, more accurately, I find that skills that can be used to cause perpetual locking can only be the result of horrible game design. White imprison has this issue too, except you can't even bwing.
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#22 Tirasu

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:49 PM

I love how everyone is crying over Shadow Chasers. Most of the issues that you're concerned about are things that are extremely easy to screen shot and report. It's not like manholing you over to a warp portal is going to be an extremely fast process. As for Shadow Form, there is no reason it shouldn't work exactly the way it does now. Stalkers have pretty much always been a good 1 v 1 class, at least if you had the right build and actually knew how to play stalkers. I'm not sure why that should change now. Also, in case you missed it, our entire job tree is designed to annoy and irritate people. Looks like it's working, eh?


Manholing you into a dimensional door takes ~ 10 seconds, and for warp portal? It's the cast time for warp portal, seriously. If it catches you by surprise thats one, maybe two screenshots tops.
Either way, saying that it's ok to lock a player unable to do anything in a PvM map because it can be reported doesn't make it ok that your ABLE to.

And unlike OTHER classes super-combos It's uncounterable.

Snap/ GoH is blocked by penuma, and can be stopped with spell breaker if the scholar/sorcerer is fast enough.

Extreme Vacuum just locks you in place, able to use your skills, while there magic skills range (outside of PW) would put them IN range of other classes ranged skills, meaning without ranged immunity you can potentionally kill them before they even cast (Especially with Acid bomb/ GoH, hell sura's can snap out of EV)

White imprison combo is tough but it's damage overall means it takes a while to kill high HP characters like it, and after each imprison break you can counter attack if your fast enough, even if it's just once, and I believe GTB shuts it down completely? Not to sure but it seems like it would.

Manholes counter? Don't fall into it, this is only possible standing on Mag.Earth because they can cast it right underneath you.
The biggest complaint about it is not that it's a good combo, but theres downright NO way to counter it outside a skill with a 2~ sec fixed cast-time that they can manhole the caster using it before they get it off.

A nice fix would be an immunity to manhole for 15 seconds after you have fallen into one, meaning you can't be perpetually trapped, giving you ~2 seconds to move away from any put next to you after your free. This will not make the skill useless, but give a counter to it. Possibly the same for white imprison, unable to have it cast upon you again for ~2 seconds after you have the status removed (the timer ends or they soul expansion)
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#23 Sera

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:51 PM

Manhole completely immobilizes a character and prevents them from doing anything other than using items and can be used repeatedly.

Why do I have a problem with this? Because I can still be attacked by ranged attacks when I use Magnetic Field and my skill has a FIVE MINUTE COOLDOWN.

I really don't have a problem with Shadow Form in and of itself, nor do I really have a problem with Manhole in and of itself (except that I think some of my skills need to be adjusted to match up with them), and I don't really have an issue that traps can be memo'd either.

My issue is that the same class gets access to ALL of these skills and can thus create a combo that is basically uncounterable.
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#24 Viri

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 01:13 PM

Manhole has a short range too, you can poke people from outside of it.
On snap/GoH. Make that snap/cursed circle/GoH or gfist and its unbeatable hurr durr.
Just ME imo
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#25 ClydeDenton

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:35 PM

I believe as soon as you cast something when using cursed circle, it immediately cancels the root effect. People can easily hide (almost everyone uses a hide acc)/spell break/deathbound/pneuma/ect before a gfist/goh lands. But with manhole (which i believe has no / under 1 sec cast time) can be casted directly on someone and trap you forever. You should not be able to shadowform while in a manhole, and you should not be stuck in LIMBO. Simple as that. Shadowform is a powerful skill, and manhole is a tactical skill, but if you cant (and any other class) cast any skills on the person the hole, then shadowform shouldnt be able to cast on it either. The only naysayers are going to be people with SC characters ( because this is pretty much they're only tactic ). Honestly , why is this even a debate....
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