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#26 Sera

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:09 PM

Like I said, there just needs to be a way for people to counter it really.
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#27 Viri

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:00 PM

I believe as soon as you cast something when using cursed circle, it immediately cancels the root effect. People can easily hide (almost everyone uses a hide acc)/spell break/deathbound/pneuma/ect before a gfist/goh lands. But with manhole (which i believe has no / under 1 sec cast time) can be casted directly on someone and trap you forever. You should not be able to shadowform while in a manhole, and you should not be stuck in LIMBO. Simple as that. Shadowform is a powerful skill, and manhole is a tactical skill, but if you cant (and any other class) cast any skills on the person the hole, then shadowform shouldnt be able to cast on it either. The only naysayers are going to be people with SC characters ( because this is pretty much they're only tactic ). Honestly , why is this even a debate....


Wrong wrong wrong. The cursed circle root effect ends after the skill hits. It's impossible to hide. I also agree that you shouldn't be able to do ANYTHING to someone in manhole. But leave shadow form and manhole alone aside from that.(other than blocking manhole on bosses for super obvious reasons.)

Edited by Viri, 17 September 2010 - 07:01 PM.

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#28 Ramen

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 06:00 AM

I really don't see a problem with the manhole combo since it's not going to work in any situation other than 1v1 or PvP when it's only 1v1. There's also a very easy counter to it, at least for other Chasers. Simply wait for them to lay their mines down, then shadow form them and run over their mines before they can react. I've done that a number of times and it works really well. Also, manhole has a fairly short range. If you're a ranger it's pretty simple to just use warg bite which is a real pain in the butt, and then kill us from outside our range to SF or hole you. It really only seems over powered because people haven't had time to come up with better strategies to deal with it. There are a hundred other things I'd be more worried about in WoE than a Shadow Chaser with mines, manhole and shadow form.
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#29 joonny

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 06:50 AM

thank you for all your opinions if this is op or not or normal play or mechanic abuse
but the question was to the gms if this is a bug or intended that way

for the discussion
the question is not if you can evade it or not BEFOR it happens cause you can always just keep distance to shadow chaser you see
but if they stalk/chasewalk right beside you and do that what can you do(MP is fairly uncommen to make it the ultimate solution and ahck is out of question for all legimit and even some illegimit player)
and all the other "examples" of uncounterable sure deaths
sura is god of ro so leave them alone(if you dont belive you havent met one or seen thier skills)
they dont even need to snap beside you for GoH cause its has a medium range and with cursed cicle its just a problem of concept and should be reviewed from korea but it was kind of intended
white prison+soul expansin is intended that one way and specially enhanced but not to good against neutarl elemnt and white prison has a fail chance(at least from what i know)
vacuum just prevents movement not attacking like the other methods so you easyly hide the pw and if teh sorc comes over to sight kill and keep earth armor on against earth greav and all is fine for you
unmentioned till now is rangers warg bite/any locking+aimed bolt wich can kill many low/medium hp charas with one hit but again doesnt prevent attacks/skills but is doable from farther away then everything else
and also unmentioned is howl of mandragora form genetic wich gives up to 3sec fixed cast on all skills(including instant cast like heal) os they bomb hunderts of people without anybody finishing their cast but crtl click attacks keep being instant
even if genetics would use thorn wall you can use skilles through it and it and flame it to make it firewall and pass throug it after some hits of firewall

so beside the sura everything can be countered and sura must be in a 1vs1 and oneshot you or you can counter them(althoug GoH onshots many)
but a shadow chaser can do this even in 2vs1 althoug its extremly difficult and requires not to good enemys(but they dont need to be braindead monkeys) since you can keep up 3 manehole at a time and prepare to retrap them befor the duration is of
and the fackt that sstalker cold not kill someone prerenewel was balanced by the fackt that they could cripple everyone not under fcp and some even to be totally useless and post renewel the fact remains that they can easyly cripple all non fcped people and that even betterwith the masquerades wich are also casteable on manholed people but that is not the big problem since they can be resisted and dont forsure kill you without abylity fo figth back

long things short manhole+shadowform AND sura as whole needs to be put out of game and genetics need to be toned down

and for ramen in manhole you cant walk/cast so unless you get out of it your dead even as SC cause they lay the traps anter your in manhole if they are remotly good and havnt seem it the other way till now
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#30 KriztanAlizun

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 06:54 AM

Snap/ GoH is blocked by penuma


Who has penuma?

Oh yeah, Arch Bishops and Suras.
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#31 KittySuperstar

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 07:20 AM

I think that countering the manhole + shadow form combo with another shadow form is an acceptable counter and is not at all an unlikely scenario. I'm sure that most decent guilds will have at least 1 chaser, so most guilds will be able to counter it if the need arises. I also think that manhole needs to be disabled in all maps aside from castles, pvp and guild dungeons. Manhole has no practical use in pvm, and knowing iRO players, people can and WILL abuse it in malicious ways.

edit- lol crap, i typed pvp instead of pvm.

Edited by KittySuperstar, 18 September 2010 - 10:17 AM.

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#32 KriztanAlizun

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 09:46 AM

I think that countering the manhole + shadow form combo with another shadow form is an acceptable counter and is not at all an unlikely scenario. I'm sure that most decent guilds will have at least 1 chaser, so most guilds will be able to counter it if the need arises. I also think that manhole needs to be disabled in all maps aside from castles, pvp and guild dungeons. Manhole has no practical use in pvp, and knowing iRO players, people can and WILL abuse it in malicious ways.


I agree that manhole is a bit broken, but I don't think it needs to be nerfed to the point that the class won't be able to enjoy one of their new skills in PvM
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#33 Tirasu

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 11:22 AM

Who has penuma?

Oh yeah, Arch Bishops and Suras.


Your point being? Sorcerers also have a penuma-like skill they can use, and I'm not talking about blinding mist's reduction, I've seen plenty of genetics waste bombs on mine. In 1-1, other classes have other counters, SC can shadowform as the sura snaps in unless they curse circle instantly, GX will be in cloak ANYWAY so they won't even be noticed outside MP card and even then they need to get close enough to ruwach, RG have defender to heavily reduce damage aswell as reflect to make them too risky to hit. Plenty of counters and ways to deal with that set up.

Even so, it's still a counter and doesn't void the fact that it can be easily countered for the said jobs. SC can't even counter other SC, it's whoever gets manhole off first wins, Even if you shadow form and then are man-holed the damage only gets redirected once so it doesn't change a thing.

Manhole has plenty of uses in PvM, it stops you getting over-mobbed by things that can hit you, and say your on a map with something stupid on you don't want to fight or can't just hide from, it let me deal with gazeti so I could focus on titans without getting assraped due to gazeti being demon and high hit (meaning you can't just hide and walk away)

The only issue with manhole in PvM is that it traps players on PvM maps and for example, ankle snare doesn't because it was abusive, so why should manhole
1) be disabled when it's just a generic "trap" fix to remove it's abuse.
2) be left as it is when theres an easy fix to remove it's abuse.

There is nothing wrong with manhole in PvP, the problem is shadow form being able to be cast ON people in manhole.

Edited by Tirasu, 18 September 2010 - 11:31 AM.

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#34 KriztanAlizun

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 11:33 AM

Sorcerers also have a penuma-like skill they can use


Because everyone has a numa like skill.
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#35 Tirasu

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 12:15 PM

Because everyone has a numa like skill.


Errede card, even though thats a % chance when hit.
And I said it as a full-stop counter, like it is to acid bomb, not that everyone had it.

I don't even know why I'm responding to you, everything you've said to me doesn't change a single thing I've said at all, even if that only makes three jobs that can negate GoH, my point still is thats three jobs that can negate GoH. It's the same way there was only four jobs that could 100% counter G-fist, now theres only one job. That doesn't make it overpowered, because now it's several times easier to cast-cancel it.

I'm ignoring your troll posts now, I'm above this.

Edited by Tirasu, 18 September 2010 - 12:16 PM.

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#36 KriztanAlizun

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 04:41 PM

I don't even know why I'm responding to you


Because you have the means to stop Hells Gate thus you're a bit biased (so am I).

Two different perspectives.
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#37 Sera

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 04:43 PM

It's because you're black.
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#38 ClydeDenton

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 04:44 PM

Viri, your right about how CC works, but I did say "I believe" and I wasnt 100% certain.

Ramen, remember what I said in my last post about who the naysayers was going to be?


Now, manhole by itself is annoying, and being able to lock them in it forever is awhole other demon, but let's just stay focused on this topic for right now, so we don't confuse people who can't keep up

The point here is, you should not be able to cast shadowform on someone in a manhole, since no other class can do any other skills to that person in the hole, nor can the person in the hole do anything beside use a item. That's what you call broken.


Sure, Sura's GoH is a pretty powerful skill, but inorder to even do damage capable of 1 shotting, you must have low hp, which someone can fart and you die. That seems pretty BALANCED to me, can get 1 shotted | can possibly 1 shot. I would even go as far to say that it's almost even MORE balanced simply because inorder to do good dmg, you need to be below 30% hp, so your floating in the 9k range (lets not forget that RD lowers HP each tick) AND most 3rd class skills can easily do over 9k dmg in 1 hit. Also, even with the highest dex it can be still be pneuma'd, SHADOWFORMED, dmg lowered to NOTHING by Mental strength and Defending Aura, hidden via class skill or smokie card or spellbroken with relative ease. Mind you it's also blocked by skin shed and lighting walk. Theres probably a few other things that I can't think of atm. At minimum, 1 of these counters are available to EVERY class in someway.

On the other hand, with manhole / SF, all you can pretty much do is say "I hope I don't fall in one" and wish for the best or even better "Maybe I just should'nt not mess with that shadowcaser". Ya......that seems balanced to me
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