139 replies to this topic

[Naughty]

What he's saying is that artisans shouldn't be special in the way of multi-tasking, and when he suggested other classes be able to craft as well, you thought it was preposterous. I think that's biased naughty, no offense. But if anyone was to suggest that katar raiders or scout get more Epic drops, or have a % chance to get rare's from mobs as a passive skill [perhaps called monster hunter] that too would be preposterous yea?

Either nerf their attack ability, or nerf their crafting out of the game. They shouldn't have both when the rest of the classes can only do 1 thing.

I didn't say Artisans should be the only Class that should be able to multi task.
I just dont think my ability to Craft should be ninjaed by every other Class in the game.

[CoffeeMuse]

This "good" non-combat skill that artisans have well, you can't sell much stuff anymore, the stuff artisans make isn't so hot now a days. If you really want this skill, just make an arti and level them up. It isn't hard to level these days. Good grief. It's been how many years that things have been like this and you're making a stink about it now?

[maldini]

I didn't say i didn't agree with other Classes not having the ability to multi task.
I believe all Classes should be able to multi task and be good at their own thing.
For all Classes to be able to Craft, you are not creating diversity between Classes. Your making them Cookie cutters of each other.
To me, thats boring. I like the differences between the Classes.

and artisan look like good at almost all area that other class can do... while artisan have their distinct advantage like craft... buying and selling skills... stockpile...
be honest.. this is unfair...

[maldini]

This "good" non-combat skill that artisans have well, you can't sell much stuff anymore, the stuff artisans make isn't so hot now a days. If you really want this skill, just make an arti and level them up. It isn't hard to level these days. Good grief. It's been how many years that things have been like this and you're making a stink about it now?

from my memory start from irose...
arti nvr been such a good fighter before

Edited by maldini, 16 June 2012 - 11:06 AM.

[CoffeeMuse]

and artisan look like good at almost all area that other class can do... while artisan have their distinct advantage like craft... buying and selling skills... stockpile...
be honest.. this is unfair...

For starters, Borgs have stockpile, not artisans unless they changed the skills while I wasn't looking. Artisans never had stockpile in the past.

As for unfair, life isn't fair. This is really moot because I just don't see the dev's changing this anyway.

As for arti's never being so good, you could say this about most of the classes at one time or another, so this is really about PVP balancing isn't it? And that will go on forever ad infinitum, until the game is finally shut down.

Edited by CoffeeMuse, 16 June 2012 - 11:11 AM.

[Naughty]

and artisan look like good at almost all area that other class can do... while artisan have their distinct advantage like craft... buying and selling skills... stockpile...
be honest.. this is unfair...

I dont know what i said that made you think i thought it was fair. I was giving my opinion on the Class that i had chosen...Artisan.
I think its good that im good at a variety of things.
Now all we need now are the other Classes to be balanced in their own unique way.

[maldini]

As for unfair, life isn't fair. This is really moot because I just don't see the dev's changing this anyway.

As for arti's never being so good, you could say this about most of the classes at one time or another, so this is really about PVP balancing isn't it? And that will go on forever ad infinitum, until the game is finally shut down.

so don't try to say we are being ridiculous to request for crafting skills as well...

[Kitt]

Soldiers' 'special task' is a passive, they have higher HP potential and can take more damage than other classes.

Hawkers' 'special task' is the ability to dodge very easily, and to move more quickly both in attacking and actual movement than other classes.

Muses' 'special task' is the ability to buff other players, and to heal.

Granted, all three of these are taks that only appear in combat situations, but I think that gives a summary of what each class is specialized in to the same extent that Dealers can craft outside of combat.

The buying and selling skills are pretty much useless. Yes, it's possible to buy things at at discount from NPCs, but there really isn't anything worth buying from them anymore. Selling at an increased price to the NPCs was destroyed when the price for selling gear to the NPCs was dropped. Stockpile for the most part is useless because most drops are useless as the only drops that have a market are gem-related (the only dealer craft that still seems to matter).


Dealers can craft -- a skill that is thoroughly dependent upon the whims of other players. Mask crafting? Useless -- the Item Mall trumps anything the dealer can craft. Sub-item crafting? Mostly useless. Armor and weapon crafting? Don't make me laugh. There's a tiny market for blue crafting, but that's usually handled between friends or clan-mates. When was the last time you saw a player vend with crafted blues for sale that actually managed to sell them? Cart crafting? Semi-useful, but again, the Item Mall trumps the dealers. CG crafting? Useless, and, here's the problem, totally dependent upon PvP now, as everything is in the Honor shops. So the dealer who wants to craft Castle Gears has to buy everything, at high prices, from players who are more adept at PvP -- assuming there's anyone who wants to buy a CG because they are still just for show. Where's the profit in that? Potion crafting? Oh, that got nerfed. Ammo crafting? Ditto -- and people are STILL complaining that it's 'over-powered'. The only craft that is still viable is gem and accessory crafting.

It is ridiculous to spread crafting to the other classes -- unless the ability to tank, the ability to move and attack fast, and the ability to heal and buff were also spread to all the other classes as well.

[CoffeeMuse]

so don't try to say we are being ridiculous to request for crafting skills as well...

It is ridiculous. Which is why I don't think the devs can take this seriously. I know I don't!

Why, after all these years is this suddenly something everyone wants?

Kitt, all good points which IMO make Maldini's comments immaterial.

---

Anyway, what was this topping about in the first place? Something about sleep. You know I am a big train fan but really this topic is TOTALLY DERAILED!

Points finger at Naughty! !!! and who set her off.

Edited by CoffeeMuse, 16 June 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[maldini]

It is rediculous. Which is why I don't think the devs can take this seriously. I know I don't!

Why, after all these years is this suddenly something everyone wants?

Kitt, all good points which IMO make Maldini's comments immaterial.

to be honest.. what i was driving at is... IT IS UNFAIR advantages to artisan.. and u have acknowledge it. that's abt it!

Edited by maldini, 16 June 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[CoffeeMuse]

If you think it is unfair, get your butt in the game and make an artisan. There ... fair! It's so easy to level compared to the olden days, this should be a non-issue!

And damn you for quoting my misspelled word!

Edited by CoffeeMuse, 16 June 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[maldini]

Soldiers' 'special task' is a passive, they have higher HP potential and can take more damage than other classes.

Hawkers' 'special task' is the ability to dodge very easily, and to move more quickly both in attacking and actual movement than other classes.

Muses' 'special task' is the ability to buff other players, and to heal.

ask those classes in the war now...
what they can do with all those sleepsssssssssssss....

u got to experience it urself to feel it.

[maldini]

If you think it is unfair, get your butt in the game and make an artisan. There ... fair! It's so easy to level compared to the olden days, this should be a non-issue!

And damn you for quoting my misspelled word!

u have acknowledged that it was unfair. that's enough

so, are u going to use ur "power" to clean all of my posts?

[Kitt]

ask those classes in the war now...
what they can do with all those sleepsssssssssssss....

u got to experience it urself to feel it.

No thank you. I've disliked PvP since it started and despise it for how trying to 'balance' the classes for PvP has pretty much ruined PvM -- and as the PvPers are still not happy, the ruination is likely to continue.

[Feuer]

Soldiers' 'special task' is a passive, they have higher HP potential and can take more damage than other classes.
- Dealers can summon mobs to take place of themselves, effevtively doubling their HP, in some cases tripling it.

Hawkers' 'special task' is the ability to dodge very easily, and to move more quickly both in attacking and actual movement than other classes.
- Dealers have both attack speed passives, buffs, aswell as movement passives and buffs. Not only this but their base stat being an increase to accuracy. So movement and attack speed is matched, and dodge is negated completely by accuracy, then summons come into play to out HP the hawker.

Muses' 'special task' is the ability to buff other players, and to heal.
- Everyone is making a "stink" that they want buff pots to be equal to cleric buffs, this would negate clerics necessity in combat.

Granted, all three of these are taks that only appear in combat situations, but I think that gives a summary of what each class is specialized in to the same extent that Dealers can craft outside of combat.

The buying and selling skills are pretty much useless.[25% discount is a considerable amount when you're buying 5 stacks of max level food for potion. aswell as talismans and binds] Yes, it's possible to buy things at at discount from NPCs, but there really isn't anything worth buying from them anymore. Selling at an increased price to the NPCs was destroyed when the price for selling gear to the NPCs was dropped. Stockpile for the most part is useless because most drops are useless as the only drops that have a market are gem-related [So Catalyst are invaluable, maybe they shouldn't charge 1.2m for a lisent U ?](the only dealer craft that still seems to matter).


Dealers can craft -- a skill that is thoroughly dependent upon the whims of other players. Mask crafting?[how is it useless when your making an mspeed set to not have a 60/40 mask of lies?] Useless -- the Item Mall trumps anything the dealer can craft. Sub-item crafting? Mostly useless [look at note about mask crafts]. Armor and weapon crafting? Don't make me laugh. There's a tiny market for blue crafting, but that's usually handled between friends or clan-mates [you still make money off of it]. When was the last time you saw a player vend with crafted blues for sale that actually managed to sell them?[Earlier today, Crafted blues are excellent for long periods of farming, as you can afford to get 2-3 sets incase dura hits 0 on a set.] Cart crafting? Semi-useful, but again, the Item Mall trumps the dealers. CG crafting? Useless, and, here's the problem, totally dependent upon PvP now, as everything is in the Honor shops. So the dealer who wants to craft Castle Gears has to buy everything, at high prices, from players who are more adept at PvP -- assuming there's anyone who wants to buy a CG because they are still just for show. Where's the profit in that? Potion crafting? Oh, that got nerfed. Ammo crafting? Ditto -- and people are STILL complaining that it's 'over-powered'. The only craft that is still viable is gem and accessory crafting.

It is ridiculous to spread crafting to the other classes -- unless the ability to tank [summons], the ability to move and attack fast [passives and self buffs], and the ability to heal and buff [buff pots] were also spread to all the other classes as well.

Please read my corrections to your uneducated wrong* post. they're marked in red.

Edit: Wasn't intended as a personal attack.

Edited by Feuer, 16 June 2012 - 04:42 PM.

[Kitt]

Kitt, on 16 June 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

Soldiers' 'special task' is a passive, they have higher HP potential and can take more damage than other classes.
- Dealers can summon mobs to take place of themselves, effevtively doubling their HP, in some cases tripling it.

Hawkers' 'special task' is the ability to dodge very easily, and to move more quickly both in attacking and actual movement than other classes.
- Dealers have both attack speed passives, buffs, aswell as movement passives and buffs. Not only this but their base stat being an increase to accuracy. So movement and attack speed is matched, and dodge is negated completely by accuracy, then summons come into play to out HP the hawker.

Muses' 'special task' is the ability to buff other players, and to heal.
- Everyone is making a "stink" that they want buff pots to be equal to cleric buffs, this would negate clerics necessity in combat.

Granted, all three of these are taks that only appear in combat situations, but I think that gives a summary of what each class is specialized in to the same extent that Dealers can craft outside of combat.

The buying and selling skills are pretty much useless.[25% discount is a considerable amount when you're buying 5 stacks of max level food for potion. aswell as talismans and binds] Yes, it's possible to buy things at at discount from NPCs, but there really isn't anything worth buying from them anymore. Selling at an increased price to the NPCs was destroyed when the price for selling gear to the NPCs was dropped. Stockpile for the most part is useless because most drops are useless as the only drops that have a market are gem-related [So Catalyst are invaluable, maybe they shouldn't charge 1.2m for a lisent U ?](the only dealer craft that still seems to matter).


Dealers can craft -- a skill that is thoroughly dependent upon the whims of other players. Mask crafting?[how is it useless when your making an mspeed set to not have a 60/40 mask of lies?] Useless -- the Item Mall trumps anything the dealer can craft. Sub-item crafting? Mostly useless [look at note about mask crafts]. Armor and weapon crafting? Don't make me laugh. There's a tiny market for blue crafting, but that's usually handled between friends or clan-mates [you still make money off of it]. When was the last time you saw a player vend with crafted blues for sale that actually managed to sell them?[Earlier today, Crafted blues are excellent for long periods of farming, as you can afford to get 2-3 sets incase dura hits 0 on a set.] Cart crafting? Semi-useful, but again, the Item Mall trumps the dealers. CG crafting? Useless, and, here's the problem, totally dependent upon PvP now, as everything is in the Honor shops. So the dealer who wants to craft Castle Gears has to buy everything, at high prices, from players who are more adept at PvP -- assuming there's anyone who wants to buy a CG because they are still just for show. Where's the profit in that? Potion crafting? Oh, that got nerfed. Ammo crafting? Ditto -- and people are STILL complaining that it's 'over-powered'. The only craft that is still viable is gem and accessory crafting.

It is ridiculous to spread crafting to the other classes -- unless the ability to tank [summons], the ability to move and attack fast [passives and self buffs], and the ability to heal and buff [buff pots] were also spread to all the other classes as well.
------------


Please read my corrections to your uneducated post. they're marked in red.

Feuer, I have been playing the game since the open beta, through the Pay-to-Play era, and up to now. I've also been reading the forums even though I don't post on them much, and have for the most part respected your knowledge of the game, and your demeanor when posting.

That respect is gone now. There is no reason to attack me on a personal level by claiming my post is 'uneducated' simply because I look at the data and interpret it differently than you do. It's fine to disagree. Respectful dialogue from opposing points of view is a hallmark of healthy communication between and among people. You are not willing to offer me that basic courtesy and respect, as evidenced by your post which contains a personal insult, therefore I am not willing to consider your points or hold any sort of discussion with you.

It's clear from many of the posts that some players don't think that the Artisan should be involved in PvP at all. As several of the Bourg skills are NPC and PvM based, it's apparent that the game developers don't expect Bourgs to be PvP players either. Further, there appear to be some players who would like the Dealer class to be removed from the game entirely. I hope that the game developers don't share this belief.

Everyone, please forgive this off-topic post. It was not my intention to hijack the thread away from the original topic. I never would have thought that a discussion about a single skill would devolve into a suggestion that one entire class should be eliminated, and the unique ability assigned to that class distributed among all others.

I should have recalled --
"Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig." Robert Heinlein

~Peace out~

[johniscu]

Since most of our threads get moved how about mods do your job and move this to game suggestions. Its only fair or your targeting certain peoples threads and moving them/deleting. Do your job move this out of community.

[Svenatenine]

Please read my corrections to your uneducated post. they're marked in red.

Please educate yourself on farming, then you can speak about uneducated posts.

Edited by Svenatenine, 16 June 2012 - 02:54 PM.

[Feuer]

Allow me to change 1 word in my post to allow for a more considerate approach, Please read my corrections to your wrong* post. they're marked in red.
It was never meant as a personal insult, and I apologize for that miss communication.

However you did bring up just about the majority of the issues with the dealer class that need to be looked at, and with a minor adjustment to your post I was able to show the majority of the concerns voiced by the community that isn't being biased about the dealer class.

As a side note to prove that I am not biased, I play a scout, a crossbow scout. and the only thing I've suggested is level 10-30 xbows being added in [for lower players] that the hawker skill tree "Combat Mastery" also give a-spd passive to xbow, since it does apply to bows currently. To edit the text on the IM Bow wind/iron blessings to display they work for xbows aswell, and to give some of the knights xbow ability to the soldier tree, so lower levels don't have to wait til level 100 to use them.
Nothing about increasing their potential, just fixing some minor display issues and availability.

Back to this thread.

Svenatenine and iralalo like to follow and harass me, i suppose the saying haters gonna hate is actually true. at any regard i will be doing my best to ignore them unless provoked personally. Kit, if you would like to brain storm ideas about the proper balance and ability of the dealer class, feel free to PM me, and after it's worked out, we will present it to the Staff and post it in the proper "Suggestions thread", sound fair?

As for the remainder of this post, and back to the original post

The combination of Sleep, Summons, and Buff potions does make for a rather out of balance character. If these 3 were lowered in potential, the combination could easily work out to be a normal PvP ability, as of right now, I agree with the post's that it is too strong in conjunction with each other.

I have voiced my opinion thoroughly here and will answer questions further if they're directly addressed to me.

Edited by Feuer, 16 June 2012 - 04:40 PM.

[kwayan19]

@kitt take a look in GA its raining bourgs there right now... there are even more bourgs than champ in GA and so are the artis~~ and bourgs usually get higher points in GA now a days~~

[CoffeeMuse]

so, are u going to use ur "power" to clean all of my posts?

eh? What power? The only power I have is to get myself thrown into the shed. Nods to the person next to him with all the "power".

[maldini]

No thank you. I've disliked PvP since it started and despise it for how trying to 'balance' the classes for PvP has pretty much ruined PvM -- and as the PvPers are still not happy, the ruination is likely to continue.

since then.. u are not really in position to defend it as u have not experience it.

[SirSlayer]

Since most of our threads get moved how about mods do your job and move this to game suggestions. Its only fair or your targeting certain peoples threads and moving them/deleting. Do your job move this out of community.

I agree with this completely.

[CoffeeMuse]

since then.. u are not really in position to defend it as u have not experience it.

You missed the point - you don't have to be experienced in PVP to resent what that aspect of the game has done to the PVM part. I agree completely with Kitt, the PVP aspect and all the screwing around the DEV's have done to try to satisfy the unsatisfiable, has over time wrecked the PVM part of the game.

[maldini]

You missed the point - you don't have to be experienced in PVP to resent what that aspect of the game has done to the PVM part. I agree completely with Kitt, the PVP aspect and all the screwing around the DEV's have done to try to satisfy the unsatisfiable, has over time wrecked the PVM part of the game.

both of u miss the point.
u really need to experience it in order to understand what other classes went thru.

put aside what DEV have done.. what we are saying here is... it is UNFAIR (read this thread again)