[Question] Regarding "Summoned" skills / Summoner Final Damage Amplification

why not remove elemental damage from auto atcks (X) and give all skills elemental damage ?

 

is more free damage for a already OP "ability" since atck speed + Matck are the strongest late game stats already

 

also if sorceror and invoker swapped the lvl 60- offencive abilities this  would make the classes more balanced around the  original design concept invoker would have poor 1 vs 1 and strong grouped  pvp team fight with loads of cc and sorceror would deal the damage the class was meant to do (of course the swap will never happen just saying )

also if sorceror and invoker swaped the 60- offencive abilities this  would make the classes more balanced around the  original design concept invoker would have poor 1 vs 1 and strong grouped  pvp team fight with loads of cc and sorceror would deal the damage the class was meant to do (off course the swap will never happen just saying )

So as a warlock player Ill start with the standalone skills first.

-speaking about Pvp

Please just dont add elements to it basicly we warlocks when we go tanky are almost unkillable since we got slow heal. Having to it our CC and insane elemental damage would result in creating another pvp godmode class. 

But the Magic damage calculations should be somehow reworked. I got atm 37k matk and 500% crit dmg and i basicly hit 200-300 dmg in pvp on hit which is actualy sad for such an amount of Matk

 

Pve

- what ever that small 1-3k dmg boost isnt even recognizable

 

-Pvp

Summoner case

- Ou thats one I have waited for long long that the day of judgment will come. 

They got a insane CC which is on pair with Warlocks( when not even better ) . Their tankiness is not even fun, that flying thing healing them ( no clue how that mechanic works). And having godlike damage thats a no go. Having basicly 65-72k matk is simply put ridiculous considering what a unhealthy kit they have got with that mana burn and those pets that got basicly a unpredictable stun and are superarmored 24/7 with a high dmg and a fair tankiness.

 

-Pve

Obviously ur not supposed to be able to solo the endgame boss ( Since Elga became a messurment of Opness ) but to do it in 7-10 minutes. Hahaha... ok.. We found the joke now lets get rid of it

 

Overall summoner case

I think every summoner player should have thought of that class being overpowered to oblivion and shouldnt realy be surprised about a sudden bombardment of nerfs. 

 

Nuff said.

 

Edited by Kristof3195, 07 October 2016 - 01:34 PM.

Revised Opinion after the patch.
1.Summoned Skill's Yes or No to element's? there are good reasons to not do it (consistency, clearness, fairness) It's been consistent that all summoned skills did not carry the caster's element. How/Why is that fair? Cause utility is it fair to be able to do high amounts of damage without being locked into an animation while keeping them under CC(negative ailments that is non recoverable using the jump button) and interrupting player's with flinch? How does that compare to x-spam? Sure on the opposite side they're shooting fast and doing damage incredibly fast. But is that their fault? No that's mainly the element systems fault (excluding summoners themselves) . x-spam doesn't have any cc or flinch whatsoever. 

 

2.Summoner's Final Damage Amplification Yes it's a bit too good to be true summoners have more attack & physical attack than the other classes. Yes meeting in the middle would be nice but don't forget over half the cast have a more defense then magic defense. 

 

3.The Element System Thing. The system in theory was a good idea but we were told prior to Arcadia that elements would have a lesser impact than it had before. but now we're seeing over large number's even on full resist builds such as 5* Special All resist resulting in 780 resist. receiving well over 2k damage per ball from a summoner and roughly 2k from a priest with a -70% reduction on his or her actual damage. Is it fair? No this system needs a higher modifier maybe -80%~90% modifier instead of the 50% modifier we currently have cause as is people are dropping far to quickly.

4. PVP Flawed in its own way where locking is a meta, an ugly scenario indeed only to be remedied by group pvp where teamwork can help teammates escape these locks. Simply introducing a feature where a player can sacrifice a fair percentage of some important resource such as awakening, hp, mp, or even additional cool-down time. Awakening Skills should come with iframes, Super armor shouldn't be destroyed by knock-back. Hiding skills should be usable in pvp where it matters more.

 

5.Class Roles should be followed just as is in any RPG game, what should be increased is the difficulty of elga itself soloing final bosses shouldn't even be possible. Just cause some classes can solo the final boss doesn't mean you should buff the other classes so they can do it too. As is right now several classes are broken because they offer very little utility as a team mate. thieves and warrior classes in general aren't very popular in endgame cause of there lack of range. I'd remake parry to a 100% block rate for small duration of time & give barricade it's heal factor back. I'd give thieves there hiding skills back. Overlord needs some defense ignores like 20% defense ignore.

Edited by Apocryphos, 07 October 2016 - 06:09 PM.

1. Yes, it's obviously summoned skill is overpowered that is the main reason why most of the player using summoner.

 

2.And all of us can know about that only summoner can end the elga in short time.That is why they pick summoner.

 

3.Make all the character can end elga boss or just Nerf the summoner class. Easy and straight forward.

I have lots of multiple 5* card and I do a lot of damage to others with 1* or 2*. I think the multiplier should be reduce so element would not be a main factor in dmg n def. More concentration on magic attack, physical attack and defense. Can we make summoned skills having reduced dmg if people spam skills more than 3 or 4 times if element is incorporated into it? Just like how invoker x-spam gets  a damage reduction when we spam.

 

I didnt notice a big difference in dealing damage when wearing 2 15* solar compare to 2 15* stella and this explain how big a role is element in PVP. 

 

I know this is hard work but we appreciate that the team is trying to make DS a better place  

imagine if cure (remove rebuff) and emergency exit were a thing in bsq. Locks can be destroyed from an invoker, as a support role.

I have lots of multiple 5* card and I do a lot of damage to others with 1* or 2*.

 

That is how it should work. It would be senseless if a lower card would beat a higher card.

There is a thread somewhere with the buff called Roar of Victory for PvP.
https://forums.warpp...6/#entry1398064|
woops wrong link corrected*

Knight Class:+50%HP

Gladiator Class: +60% HP

Monk Class:
Increase:
HP: 50%, MP: 20%
Decrease:
Spark Rock AOE: 25%
Diffusion Cannon continuous attack damage: up to 70%
Double Shot continuous attack damage: up to 70%

Wizard Class:
HP: +50%, MP: +20%

Hunter Class:
Increase:
HP: 60%
Decrease:
Double Shot continuous attack damage: up to 70%

Marksman Class:
Increase:
HP: 60%
Decrease:
Antiair Shot continuous attack damage: up to 70%
Camouflage disabled

Infiltrator Class:
Increase:
HP: 60%
Decrease:
Not able to use Burrow
Not able to use Shadow Walk

Bandit Class:
Increase:
HP: 60%
Decrease:
Not able to use Burrow

Shaman Class:
HP: 50%, MP: 20%

Twin Fighter Class:
HP: 50%

 

Average Endgame HP is approximately anywhere between 80k~300k? Then Deathbuffs come in for BSQ which is ontop of this.

Edited by Apocryphos, 08 October 2016 - 12:08 AM.

Thank you for posting the numbers. I am always a bit stressed so it was helpful.

Looking at numbers the idea to start with a higher base element resist rate might not be a bad idea. This must definitely be taken into consideration.

 

Also class-based multipliers for the element damage would be an option, especially if we want to add elements to "summoned" skills and with sight on the x-spam classes.

 

I will talk about it with the team.

 

 

 

80k~300k

 

But where is the problem taking 1.6k element damage then? That would mean 50~188 hits to completely kill someone (when only element damage is taken into account because you said you almost tank every "normal" damage).

 

HP might be exaggerated but reaching those higher values requires a lot of resistance to be sacrificed. Along with defense for the majority of the classes. But simply running into some x attacks from a summoner results in 3-6k damage. In reality the hit count climbs incredible fast when there are multiple players in the arena. Especially when skills with multihits like shoot down have 15 hits of 2-3k resulting in 30-45k if all the arrows hit. The system favors hit count over raw damage atm.

The overall problem I see written down in this thread is the general influence of the elements in PVP. I get the feeling that it might be a good idea to lower the general influence of the elements in PVP. People complain that element influence increased instead of decreased with the new system. By looking at the posted numbers I think I could see a problem.

However the new element system is a good idea and I really like the fact of the 1:1 plus the fact everyone is able to get cards and build "their" builds. It has much more freedom and less pay to win.

 

How about deviding all element values by x amount (2 or 3 maybe?) to lower the general influence (output/defense as you call it) of elements in pvp. I'm talking about all values here. So we would give elements a minor role as is now but still enough for a little bit extra damage and the 1:1 system could be kept in place and so the easy understanding and the freedom in building stays. Instead of having total chaos again (I saw the calculation of the normal matk/patk formula and I doubt we need anything like that everywhere else..)

 

Edit: Forgot one thing. I guess the summoner could need the same x spam damage decreasing debuff the invoker already has.....I guess this would help at least a little.

Edited by Fliederduft78, 08 October 2016 - 01:52 AM.

The overall problem I see written down in this thread is the general influence of the elements in PVP. I get the feeling that it might be a good idea to lower the general influence of the elements in PVP. People complain that element influence increased instead of decreased with the new system. By looking at the posted numbers I think I could see a problem.
However the new element system is a good idea and I really like the fact of the 1:1 plus the fact everyone is able to get cards and build "their" builds. It has much more freedom and less pay to win.

How about deviding all element values by x amount (2 or 3 maybe?) to lower the general influence (output as you call it) of elements in pvp. I'm talking about all values here. So we would give elements a minor role as is now but still enough for a little bit extra damage and the 1:1 system could be kept in place and so the easy understanding and the freedom in building stays. Instead of having total chaos again (I saw the calculation of the normal matk/patk formula and I doubt we need anything like that everywhere else..)

exactly I suggested a 20-30%(-80%~ -70%) element modifier instead of 50% for pvp that way should there be a fix/buff for physical attackers and summoners final damage amplification meet in the middle ordeal were to be made on top of this would get us in an ideal area.

Edited by Apocryphos, 08 October 2016 - 01:13 AM.

 

 

 

Fire = 60, Ice = 60, Nature = 60, Dark = 60

The outcome is that 450 Damage is dealt to the opponent per hit in this build. 

 

 

 

Gotta take to account that if you go with single ele attack cards you'll want to put that fire number up to 100, meaning the end damage raises up to 1150 per hit (500 * 3.5 - 600). Killing some one like me (110k hp~) would take 100 hits just from the ele damage, but when you add to that the normal damage it'll probably half that in most cases. Means I die pretty fast against anyone then, not to even mention summoners.

 

EDIT: Any classes combo has quite many hits, and clerics/summoners can get the hit count up real fast as we know. And group pvp being what people mostly do now (gimme a ranked mode) you can really get nuked quite fast there with this.

Edited by Precrush, 08 October 2016 - 05:54 AM.

Shameless double post

 

There's also the fact that getting good amounts of resistance for all of the elements is darn expensive. So what's gonna happen is a lot of people running around with a decent amounts of element damage but not much resist, dealing huge amounts of damage to each other and probably decently on those with the 4 ele resist cards as well. So a likely scenario is one where most people do huge amounts of damage to each other and only those fortunate enough can get enough resist to stand for a while longer. And even those will take a lot of damage from people who've just gotten the single attack cards at 1/4th the price of 4 element resist cards.

Edited by Precrush, 09 October 2016 - 12:56 AM.

Hello everyone.

While not having a lot of experience or highly stacked gear I still would like to voice my opinion on the matters at hand, which have sparked my interest while reading through this post.

 

Elements and pvp:

In my opinion pvp should be as much skill based as possible. I however understand that because of dragonsaga's business model gear is required to be important. While that is unchangeable, I don't like the idea of specializing in elements for pvp. Let me explain why:

My chances of beating x or y player shouldn't be largely depended on whether or not my elements points distribution and choice of socket cards add well against the choice of my opponents. This is a totally random decision and usually does not factor in a logical decision(maybe except a specific element dungeons being easier to farm than others). Now personally I think this problem diminishes as more players are factored into the equation( Eg. emporia war). As the chance of me solely or largely winning only because of elements decreases with more various opponent with different element distribution.

 

Sorcerers and solo pvp:

I first and foremost agree upon that they have a lack of viable catching methods. I think it would really help if they would fix a bug with freeze time. If the opponent jumps before him being caught, the time he is actually “frozen” is greatly reduced, if the opponent is frozen mid air. This is very easily executable because of the easily visible casting animation of freeze time.

Secondly I still would like if they were able to deal a bit more dmg. I honestly couldn’t care less if this is achieved by adding element dmg to their casted skill(maybe with only 30% of the element dmg) or a rework of the dmg calculation formula. The only thing which is important that it is balanced and this can only be achieved by trial and error.

 

Classes and their designated role:

While I understand the charm of each class having their fixed and designated roll I rather have a balanced game, where every class is viable solo and group play for pve/pvp. So in my opinion classes shouldn't be solely be limited to support or dps etc.

 

Summoner’s final damage amplification:

No class should ever be in the position of being so dominant. I would personally reduce the total amount of final damage they can get through each of their passives. That way people don’t fully regret farming those skill points.

 

Oh and one final note:

If something is clearly over powered the devs shouldn’t be afraid of nerving it. At the same time it's important that you don’t nerv it dead/unplayable(looking at you pala). For people whining about such change I have 2 things to say:

First if something is clearly overpowered and not intentional you should be well aware that it is highly likely that this going to be changed in the future. Now either you are aware of that risk and still invest lot of time and gold into overpowered stuff or you don’t.

Secondly in my opinion for the long run it’s way more important to have a healthy game, one which is balanced, thus allowing diverse classes and builds, which in return allows for a longer and more enjoyable playtime than losing out some players who only chose to play said class because it’s overpowered, so they can nourish their ego, and quit once it isn’t anymore.

 

 

 

Edited by Laulpmail, 09 October 2016 - 05:15 AM.

Just wanted to be another voice on this matter so the community has another perspective.

 

The meta before Arcadia

Full +20 gears with 6*s duals/4 element resist in all sockets allowed you to tank 99.99% of the server in ALL level range, the only class that was able to kill were Summoners due to high matk, high CD and with a broken x-spam that has no reduction on damage whatsoever.

 

 

Meta RIGHT after Arcadia update

Full +20 gears with full 5* Special dual or single resist (depending on level) with a focus on resist allowed you to also.... tank 99.99% of the server, and yeah, Summoners were the only ones able to kill.

 

 

Meta after the Arcadia element bug fixed with elements working as originally intended

Finally some variety in elements and classes. Doesn't matter what you build, you'll only be tanking at most give or take, 25% of the server. The other 75% or more, provided that they are also equally geared in elements will cut through your HP like a hot knife through butter. 

 

I think there is some balance in regards to elements. We're finally moving away from the 1-person-tank-all meta. The balance of the classes is a totally different matter. This also gives an alternative method to stack for players without a lot of "cash", they are able to roll in Vanilla gears and can still deal damage to full +20 purple players. The setback of course is they're going to get one-shotted but at least they don't come off as totally useless.

 

 

 

 

In PvP, it's not essential to have a summoner anymore as any class has the potential to kill, this is where a player's skill comes into play. Can you kill the other person before they kill you since you're both squishy(featherweight/easy to kill)? It's nice to see a variety of classes now instead of Summoners, Summoners, Summoners and the other 2 mage classes for total crowd control.

 

As in regard to the complaint about element having too much of an effect in PvP, it may be so in PvP room and Emporia as well, HOWEVER in BSQ, with death buff stacking and a competent team for backup, it still takes a bit long to lock and kill healing and/or running flag holders. As for the PvP room, rules such as equal gears or reducing element damage can be placed since after all, the players are more in control there.

 

 

As for the question of the thread

Summoned skills should get Element applied to them because from what I can see the classes with those skills have the lowest killing power. Overlords' and Sorcerers' PvP damage output, for example, will greatly increase, almost putting them up to par with the x-spamming classes. Reducing Summoner's final damage amplification should be considered but not to the point where it becomes useless, like some people already mentioned. People spent time and money to get those cards so they should reap the rewards.

 

A reason why Summoners are so broken because on top of their insane MATK, they have the helix shot skill and it's also splash damage with no reduction. Take that away then they don't really hurt. Invokers also have a 3-ball per shot, called Diffusion Cannon, but it does no splash damage and their x-spam magic damage gets a -70% reduction. Destroyers, another x-spamming class, has random shot which is a 2 arrow per shot and does no splash damage as well.

 

 

And good job Popcorn for finally working on the PvP aspect of the game, it's been ignored for far too long. 

Edited by Infin1te, 09 October 2016 - 12:42 PM.

Sure it's good that you can't tank everything, but don't you think it'd be better to have that be the case because everyone has decent normal damage, not because of a random choice one makes?

It's normal that builds aren't predictable in RPGs. That is why it's an RPG. Otherwise we could give everyone the same amount of damage because building would make no sense. It is not intended that anyone with a 60,60,60,60 4-element resistance build can tank every other build.

 

If there are no opinions by others I will lock this topic tomorrow since I finally gathered all informations I need. 

 

Thank you.

 

I still dont know how the devs have so much mercy on the shaman class

 

when dragoon and ninja where op (the block was bs on pvp though) they had no mercy on the nerfs and lose a good amoung of the player base and does classes needed a party of 8 to kill elga in a 25 min + run while invoker and shaman remain untouched  when they can kill elga solo in less them 10 minutes! (elga got nerfed maybe dev coud bring old one as a hero dificulty  with higher drop chances for everything?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I still dont know how the devs have so much mercy on the shaman class

 

 

It does not have to do with mercy. As I told several times we can only fix and balance step by step besides creating events, making new content, fixing severe bugs and so on.

 

For class balancing it's more like working on it with a scalpel and not with a chainsaw otherwise we would have results like we had when the former devs have "balanced". I am sure you get what I mean.

_Builds are predictable though aren't they?

EDIT: Might as well write more since I gotta stay up in the night and there's nothing to do

Obviously 4 element resist cards shouldn't be able to block all damage from a single element damage build, single element resist cards of that type should do that. That's in no way a issue and I've seen no-one in this thread claim so. The issue is just that in pretty much case where 2 people with similar decent gear go head to head, elements deal too much, unless those 2 happen to counter eachother, in which case they might deal way too little. Or only one of them might deal too much. 2k hits on 100k hp is a hell of a lot in our game since the hits do pile up.

If the idea was to make an element system that didnt matter as much in pvp, this isn't it. If you half all the numbers of resistance and attack for example(meanwhile leaving pve with the current damge), then it could be. I thought it was a great idea to make it more of a pve thing, this kind of rock paper scissors is a pretty bad thing when it decides pvp match ups. Those should be decided by skill and ofc in rpgs the quality of ones gear.

With that there would probably be people that could tank most classes very well, but that's just because of the normal damage and defense thing also being a bit bad and unbalanced, as well as heals being too strong.

It's an interesting thing thinking about this predictability thing. What I think rpgs often are based on is a sort of projection of our real world. In the real world it's easy to predict what kind of "gear" an opponent would have based on the knowledge we have about the available "gear" (price, availability, suitability) and of the opponent (financial situation, possibly prefrences although those are harder to know).

Now based on that gear you can make a rough estimation of how effective the opponent is, but what in the end decides the match between two sides that are enough close to each other is skill, ability, know-how, what ever you want to call it. What elemnts now kind of do is throw all of that away to say "The guys with the blue sticks always win the guys with red shirts, but the guys with blue-green shirts might have a chance. The team with green shirts and red sticks however will destroy the blue stick team since it also has green shirts."

Edited by Precrush, 09 October 2016 - 02:01 PM.

IMO the good idea was two separate damages; PvE and PvP for elements.

Another good call was PvP being fraction by comparison to PvE.

So how about 3 types;

 

Damage PvE. Keep damage for this the same values or up slightly to make it worthwhile.

Damage PvP Skills. Skill oriented Element Damage. Include Standalone Skills. This will use a higher multiplier and keep the majority of damage skill oriented.

Damage PvP Basic Attacks. X-spam oriented. Goes on a lower multiplier to keep X-spam specific in check.

It does not have to do with mercy. As I told several times we can only fix and balance step by step besides creating events, making new content, fixing severe bugs and so on.

 

For class balancing it's more like working on it with a scalpel and not with a chainsaw otherwise we would have results like we had when the former devs have "balanced". I am sure you get what I mean.

 

when the class shaman and invoker can solo the last in game boss in less them 10 minutes

while other classes take 45min+ and can fail you know the class doesnt need love taps on the nerfs

 

and heavy nerfs  are not realy bad it create meta shift if shaman keep this power lvl 90% of player base will be shaman by next year and seeing the same class  will make the game monotonous that is why mobas keep buff and nerf everything to create more diversaty seeing same op picks would make people bored

 

Edited by HakannBlast, 10 October 2016 - 08:09 AM.

I was gonna sit this one out but might as well give my opinion

 

Regarding Elements

I think the elements are essential in PVP and in a way makes it more exciting as you can make your own build to tank other players elements (in the recent update fire cancels fire and so does with other elems.) BUT why is the Priest and summoner so OP in terms of elemental damage? Here's why, elemental damage are "Pure damage" which means they go thru defense. So if i have 70 elemental points on Fire plus 500% fire rate due to equips rate, then my final pure damage would be 70x5x5=1750 per hit. But priest and summoners have a skill buff which makes their attack be multiplied by three (example diffusion cannon for priest would have 5250 per xxx hit -.- ) where as a Paladin who is skill based with a crosscut (only a two attack skill with maybe a 1 second skill animation) will only have 1750x2=3500 elemental damage. Just imagine at a time frame of 10 seconds, how many skills can you make vs on how many xxx spam attack you can do on a monk. (sorry for not being able to explain well, im not good with these things)

 

My Suggestion

Maybe we could lessen the percentage of elemental attack that can be done thru normal attacks vs skill attacks or as other players have said, try to increase the percentage of elemental damage on skills. I think Physical attack should also be recalculated since you can only increase it thru your main weapon but defense could be increased on normal wing and cash wing (which makes the defense too high to be almost equal to the attack). I could see the difference because I use a warrior account and my girlfriend uses a monk account. I have better equips and elemental multiplier than her but she deals way more damage than i do.

 

and Finally

I don't want to offend anyone, i just wanna say what I think and i hope that this may help in developing this game. peace out

 

Thanks..

 

(also its not advisable to equally distribute your elements if its not maxed out at 100 elemental points because you will have to start at a base rate of 50% per element )