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[Question] Regarding "Summoned" skills / Summoner Final Damage Amplification


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#51 Agitodesu

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 01:57 PM

PvE wise, regarding summoned skills, they all do 1 damage to bombs in F7 even when you get the attack buff per hit.

 

Will that be looked into or was it intended.


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#52 Popcorn

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 03:25 PM

So finally this topic goes into the direction I supposed that it will go to.

 

I have the feeling no one of you guys is able to really build with this new element system thinking that damage and resistance is now 1:1 and it's not enough to put 100 points on 2 elements and don't care for the resistance because "it will be tanked".

 

However, I accept your decision and the following will happen by the next maintenance:

 

The element system will be completely removed from PvP. Also I won't touch the summoner or any other class PvP-wise because no one of you is willing to adjust to changes. Especially to changes that needs a bit of building. The new element is RPG based like it should be. Tell me any RPG where a fire element can resist a nature element or whatever. I know none. But maybe I am living in another world than you do.

 

I personally still don't see any reason why classes that totally rely on skills shouldn't be able to deal element damage. But these days you're that used to a buggy system (every element can resist every element - what is totally not logical) that you don't want to get used to a real RPG like element system.

We wanted to implement element effects/debuffs (DoT) depending on the element but this plans are now put on ice for PvP.

 

Finally, I won't care about PvP anymore personally, because you guys are totally stubborn and trapped in your own of view where everyone of you don't want to step away from at least a little bit.

If you have any suggestions for PvP feel free to suggest here on the forums, by PM to CM Dragonlark or by ticket to our Support Team. If the team decides something could be useful it might be implemented. Don't expect any answer from me personally to any PvP-wise suggestion anymore.

 

However, this topic showed that involving the community might not be as good as I personally would have liked to. Now I know why big developers don't involve their communities or players.

 

I think the decision of the PvP community is made at this points that elements will be removed from PvP so that ATK/MATK is the only thing which counts. 

Since the discussion is only going round in circles I see no need to keep that discussion.

 

Thank you for your opinions on this matter.

 

 


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#53 Apocryphos

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 03:42 PM

I'd still appreciate the final damage amplification for physical attackers and summoners meet in the middle thing though. Although the element system had mixed feelings from people accustomed to being able to tank everything which brought the severe lash back at the community. The timing as well wasn't well planned either. putting a discussion about summoner damage and standalone items right after a client fix for the element system. Good Job though removing elements is the first step in renewing it.

Well to be fair we were told that elements would have less of an impact than it did before. in 85 bsq elements were literally obsolete cause elements would actually lower the damage. cause resist was higher than 100% in end game. now with current system the damage coming from elements easily exceeds 1k+, to my understanding this is a much larger impact than it was prior to arcadia.


Edited by Apocryphos, 06 October 2016 - 04:07 PM.

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#54 ohsnap

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 03:44 PM

sigh RIP to the ppl who spent a lot of time and money on elements only having it majorly changed every patch and finally having it ultimately removed. 


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#55 Zaydes

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 04:05 PM

I follow this thread daily though I don't share any my ideas about it--I leave the pros who actually know what they are talking about. So I decided to try pvp once again and I got excited about the element rework, " oh boy I can finally catch up in building my character for pvp". Yes I am one of those people who sold IMs to be able to buy really expensive advanced element to upgrade cards--what you're telling us right now Mr Popcorn crushed me and other aspiring players who farms/saves money for this change. I'm not trying to understand your frustration but this is taking it too far. I think you are making an impulsive decision that can ultimately drive players away.
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#56 stiffyliffyriffy

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 04:07 PM

So finally this topic goes into the direction I supposed that it will go to.

 

I have the feeling no one of you guys is able to really build with this new element system thinking that damage and resistance is now 1:1 and it's not enough to put 100 points on 2 elements and don't care for the resistance because "it will be tanked".

 

However, I accept your decision and the following will happen by the next maintenance:

 

The element system will be completely removed from PvP. Also I won't touch the summoner or any other class PvP-wise because no one of you is willing to adjust to changes. Especially to changes that needs a bit of building. The new element is RPG based like it should be. Tell me any RPG where a fire element can resist a nature element or whatever. I know none. But maybe I am living in another world than you do.

 

I personally still don't see any reason why classes that totally rely on skills shouldn't be able to deal element damage. But these days you're that used to a buggy system (every element can resist every element - what is totally not logical) that you don't want to get used to a real RPG like element system.

We wanted to implement element effects/debuffs (DoT) depending on the element but this plans are now put on ice for PvP.

 

Finally, I won't care about PvP anymore personally, because you guys are totally stubborn and trapped in your own of view where everyone of you don't want to step away from at least a little bit.

If you have any suggestions for PvP feel free to suggest here on the forums, by PM to CM Dragonlark or by ticket to our Support Team. If the team decides something could be useful it might be implemented. Don't expect any answer from me personally to any PvP-wise suggestion anymore.

 

However, this topic showed that involving the community might not be as good as I personally would have liked to. Now I know why big developers don't involve their communities or players.

 

I think the decision of the PvP community is made at this points that elements will be removed from PvP so that ATK/MATK is the only thing which counts. 

Since the discussion is only going round in circles I see no need to keep that discussion.

 

Thank you for your opinions on this matter.

 

 

Just give elements to all skills and do what you want you're the developer. You shouldn't  remove elements from pvp. There are numerous people besides these two that have spent money and time farming elements for their characters and adjusting to elements every single update. Please reconsider removing elements from pvp. All your efforts to balance this game are appreciated. Don't give up :p_hi:   


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#57 Starkespada1

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 04:09 PM

Not everyone is going to agree with each other, I was already going to prepare for all skills receiving element. If element is removed from pvp it won't phase me what so ever, if all skills get element then alright cool I'll work with it.

 

I would just go with your original plan on all skills receiving element, tbh this was a surprising change in pace seeing everyone hitting quadruple digit numbers it gave everyone a chance to compete.

 

If i were given the 2 choices of all skills getting element and no element at all then id go for element for all skills, it makes it fair for new people to actually do some damage on stacked players


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#58 Popcorn

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 04:15 PM

I follow this thread daily though I don't share any my ideas about it--I leave the pros who actually know what they are talking about. So I decided to try pvp once again and I got excited about the element rework, " oh boy I can finally catch up in building my character for pvp". Yes I am one of those people who sold IMs to be able to buy really expensive advanced element to upgrade cards--what you're telling us right now Mr Popcorn crushed me and other aspiring players who farms/saves money for this change. I'm not trying to understand your frustration but this is taking it too far. I think you are making an impulsive decision that can ultimately drive players away.

 

 

Just give elements to all skills and do what you want you're the developer. You shouldn't  remove elements from pvp. There are numerous people besides these two that have spent money and time farming elements for their characters and adjusting to elements every single update. Please reconsider removing elements from pvp. All your efforts to balance this game are appreciated. Don't give up :p_hi:   

 

Why didn't you guys post on here when I asked for opinions from other players? I have to rely on these opinions. To be honest I completely did expect what happened here and I also expected in which direction it will go when only these players are posting. I hoped for more response from the other players to be honest. Also we have to rely on players who are willing to adjust to our changes to balance the game for everyone. To make it fun. To be honest I neither see fun nor any kind of challenge if always the same people are dominating the PvP and others don't even try to face them because they know they're without any chance.

 

I will talk to the Dragon Saga team about the element system and what we should do/want to do. 
I am personally still all for more balance and more chances for everyone to make PvP a more challenging and fun game mode within the whole Dragon Saga world. 

And this is definitely no easy task.

 

Edit: I should say, no matter if we decide to implement this system for the summoned skills for PvP too, it will stay as it is. Because it now works as it was planned from the beginning on the server and client side. 


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#59 Zaydes

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 04:27 PM

I am pve as I mentioned to most of my reply. I don't have a lot of info regarding pvp, yet alone with the new system. I don't know what to suggest
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#60 Agitodesu

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 04:29 PM

So finally this topic goes into the direction I supposed that it will go to.

 

I have the feeling no one of you guys is able to really build with this new element system thinking that damage and resistance is now 1:1 and it's not enough to put 100 points on 2 elements and don't care for the resistance because "it will be tanked".

 

However, I accept your decision and the following will happen by the next maintenance:

 

The element system will be completely removed from PvP. Also I won't touch the summoner or any other class PvP-wise because no one of you is willing to adjust to changes. Especially to changes that needs a bit of building. The new element is RPG based like it should be. Tell me any RPG where a fire element can resist a nature element or whatever. I know none. But maybe I am living in another world than you do.

 

Dragon saga from the beginning of elements till the latest maintenance

The game to everyone who played it had elemental attack blocked by building elements not according to that type, prior to the new element if you built all 4 elements  to the highest amount you can negate any elements to 0 along with physical attack/magical attack. You built the world and we live in it.

 

I personally still don't see any reason why classes that totally rely on skills shouldn't be able to deal element damage. But these days you're that used to a buggy system (every element can resist every element - what is totally not logical) that you don't want to get used to a real RPG like element system.

We wanted to implement element effects/debuffs (DoT) depending on the element but this plans are now put on ice for PvP.

 

Many people including me here were fine with stand alone skills getting elements. I was the only person against sorcerers getting elements by 80%, I was willing by 20%. So this comment was unintentionally for me.

 

Finally, I won't care about PvP anymore personally, because you guys are totally stubborn and trapped in your own of view where everyone of you don't want to step away from at least a little bit.

If you have any suggestions for PvP feel free to suggest here on the forums, by PM to CM Dragonlark or by ticket to our Support Team. If the team decides something could be useful it might be implemented. Don't expect any answer from me personally to any PvP-wise suggestion anymore.

 

It's okay for you to not care for pvp since that's when the elitists get on and start tapping away apparently and everyone who comments are from 1 guild. Hopefully 500 people from ds magically pop into forums or start submitting tickets and make valid points caring about high and low tier pvp or pve. It won't so don't lie to yourself that it will. Or is 500 of a population too low? Too high?

 

However, this topic showed that involving the community might not be as good as I personally would have liked to. Now I know why big developers don't involve their communities or players.

 

I think the decision of the PvP community is made at this points that elements will be removed from PvP so that ATK/MATK is the only thing which counts. 

Since the discussion is only going round in circles I see no need to keep that discussion.

 

Thank you for your opinions on this matter.

 

Cool your head and read as if they weren't personal attacks and probably read this carefully.

 

1. No one is completely against elements in standalone skills like you think. I was completely for every skill getting elements. For the sorcerer issue, I had my own opinion and explanation and that's what had the most impact on you since no one else was against it other than me alone. Even then I was not completely against sorcerers getting element.

2. Elements are busted most likely cause it was newly introduced, you caught on to the mistake eventually and you fixed it. The reason why you had so much detail in the system was that you can have "control" , Not to toss the whole thing aside.

3. Old element system, new element system, and certain phases of element system are different. So read carefully on context on which the person is talking about before thinking its the new system.

4. Players give reasons for change, but give reasons not to. This is called a discussion. Every decent discussion has 2 sides, not 1.

5. Coolsam was only commenting on the logic behind what goes on with enchanting weapons and that having a minimal effect compared to the elements currently. Because it's what has and will happen. You have to decide if that's what you want for the pvp side.

 

 

Having said this you should realize that this entire discussion had no threats to anyone, but opinions and ways to change something, not to revert it.


Edited by Agitodesu, 06 October 2016 - 04:34 PM.

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#61 stiffyliffyriffy

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 04:33 PM

Why didn't you guys post on here when I asked for opinions from other players? I have to rely on these opinions. To be honest I completely did expect what happened here and I also expected in which direction it will go when only these players are posting. I hoped for more response from the other players to be honest. Also we have to rely on players who are willing to adjust to our changes to balance the game for everyone. To make it fun. To be honest I neither see fun nor any kind of challenge if always the same people are dominating the PvP and others don't even try to face them because they know they're without any chance.

 

I will talk to the Dragon Saga team about the element system and what we should do/want to do. 
I am personally still all for more balance and more chances for everyone to make PvP a more challenging and fun game mode within the whole Dragon Saga world. 

And this is definitely no easy task.

 

Edit: I should say, no matter if we decide to implement this system for the summoned skills for PvP too, it will stay as it is. Because it now works as it was planned from the beginning on the server and client side. 

Sounds good. Looking forward to seeing these changes in pvp and pve.  :p_idea:  

 

"I follow this thread daily though I don't share any my ideas about it--I leave the pros who actually know what they are talking about. So I decided to try pvp once again and I got excited about the element rework, " oh boy I can finally catch up in building my character for pvp". -Zaydes

 

I agree completely with Zaydes. I don't really know what I'm talking about when its regarding elements but like others we now have a fair chance to compete with other people who stack elements in pvp. I'll try to be more vocal next time.

 

 

Off Topic

Is Arcadia gear coming out soon?? Looking forward to new gears and designs can't wait excited.  :thx:

 

Thanks again for your continued effort in trying to balance the game. Keep up the good work.


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#62 Popcorn

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 04:38 PM

 

 

Dragon saga from the beginning of elements till the latest maintenance

 

Yes, because of a mathematical bug which never has been fixed, like many other things too.

 

 

It's okay for you to not care for pvp since that's when the elitists get on and start tapping away apparently and everyone who comments are from 1 guild. Hopefully 500 people from ds magically pop into forums or start submitting tickets and make valid points caring about high and low tier pvp or pve. It won't so don't lie to yourself that it will. Or is 500 of a population too low? Too high?

 

 

 

A population of 500 is way too low, but you surely understand that I don't have and can't tell numbers ;)

However, the people using forums are for sure a lot lower. I am not talking about 500, but we have a lot more players posting on the forums now and then which are playing for a long time and should have an opinion on such things. More than only the 5 or 6 "usual" people posting in this PvP topic. 

 

It might also be one reason for people not to post in PvP topics because PvP topics often go out of hands. There might be other reasons too...

 


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#63 Agitodesu

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 04:41 PM

Exactly.


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#64 Elijazz

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 05:02 PM

Honestly, the old and new element system is still the pain in the a.. when it comes to damage output in pvp. I would like to agree that it's a failed math calculation. With the old element system you just need to stacked your characters and when you and your opponent are stacked enough it's like playing the old dragonica version where in no element involves in game. 

 

The element system is very tricky and even with the new system it's not balance at all. If we are aiming for pvp balance even in pve then the element is not the solution.

 

You're the developer and the man behind the codes, you know what's best. 

 


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#65 5143121023173906760

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 07:26 PM

Go to 81 bsq with a +0 broken weapon if you have all your elements, I will guarantee you will be hitting 1000-3000 damage minimum.


I'd like to know how these damage estimation have been brought.

I'm pretty sure that not everyone in BSQ is fully-stacked, and this is why you can deal such high damage to a player.

Now my personal point of view on the elemental system overall :
It is obvious for me that the elements isnt completely fixed. Rather than completely reworking because it would take way more time to fix everything.
Instead, what WarpPortal did is to reduce the potential of the elemental attack/defense and made the highest stats easy to reach to anyone.


So what could be the problem that makes elements being the most effective way to make some damage in PvP ?

First of all, you may notice that you can get up to 6 elemental attack card and 5 elemental defense card, which means that you will never be able to negate 100 % of the elemental attacks.
You may say that you can still use the rings to get 8/5 cards or 6/7 cards but the fact that you can only use one element at a time on the ring isnt helping much. And even though they could give 4 elements, there will still be people that are playing with 8 cards that will be able to hit you since you will only have 7 cards.
This case is only whenever you play the same elements as the opponent, so it changes a bit when someone is playing one or two elements against someone using 4 elements.
When those players fight each other, they will deal huge damages to each other, which I thought that was what the community wanted ("ignoring" the elemental system by making as much resistance as possible or making it work and becoming a glass cannon but that's in fact harder than it should be)

At the time I have no way to tell what could be changed so everyone is happy, since I haven't spent any element points yet I already have 5* cards to use and I don't have all the answers either, but what I can tell is that elemental damage became the main source of damage in PvP because unlike physical or magical damage, you can't reduce it to a number that is close to 0.

(Btw, I'm pretty sure that you still need to enchant your armor so you don't get crushed in PvP so enchants aren't that useless)
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#66 Popcorn

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 11:10 PM

It is obvious for me that the elements isnt completely fixed. Rather than completely reworking because it would take way more time to fix everything.

 

The system is completely reworked. If it is "fixed" is a matter of the point of view.

However it would be possible to reduce the element damage to 0 by resistance, but this would mean, that the assigned element points for the specific elements and the element resists rates for the element exactly match the assigned element points and element damage rates of the opponent. A 100,100, 20, 20 build is risky.

 

This system is created to allow individual builds that cannot be easily tanked. 

 

But I ask myself, why do you want to reduce all damage to 0? Then playing PvP is finally useless if everyone can reduce the full damage of the opponent to 0. I can think of different scenarios that will happen:

 

- PvP will become boring because there is no winner

- PvP can still only be played by the highest stacked players

- Again a lot of players will try to find more ways to cheat to become the winner

 

 

On another note: What do you expect from the element system when it's "fixed" in your opinion? A system that is bound to the damage the char is dealing? This would finally result in the usual "the highest stacked player is the winner". If this is the case, why playing PvP if everyone knows beforehand that specific persons will win, because they're always the highest stacked players.

 

Now my honest question to these type of players: Why do you PvP if you know you will beat everyone else? Feeling good because you're the god of PvP? Feeling good that you can beat the "small" ones? That reminds me of the days in school when everyone started to harass the weakest. Where is the challenge if you know you can beat almost everyone else? Seriously, why do you want to be like this? Maybe I'm too old to understand that or I have a totally different attitude regarding this but I see no challenge in a game if I know that I can beat everyone with almost zero effort. It's just boring. I accept that there are players/people thinking like that, but that does not mean that devs of are game a sharing the same attitude or are finally happy if someone can achieve this.

How should it go on? More stats, higher stats? Faster and stronger? Damage like 500k per hit which then can be reduced to 0 by the opponent? Where would be the use rather than the same old "I need to stack more than my opponent" attitude. 

Excuse me being cynical, but if this would be the goal, we can go in PvP, stand around there and let the RNG decide who wins, because it's same exciting like fighting with everyone reducing damage to 0. Or we can go into PvP, the game calculates all stats and picks the one/the team with the highest stats because this will definitely be the one/team which wins.

 

 


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#67 Onyzer

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 12:02 AM

About the summoners final damage amplification : Since now this topic is not only about summoners but more about balancing the classes, I think a meet-in-the-middle where the classes become more balanced would be nice. Of course we won't find the perfect middle in one try, I think we will have to make trial periods more often and then we can tend to something more balanced every time. This is how other games are working with balancing the game : they nerf OP classes and buff low classes and then tend to balance the game a little bit more every time. But don't expect the classes to be 100% balanced, this will never happen : there will always be one or more classes that are better, but our aim is to be as near to the 100% balanced as we can.

My opinion is based on the PDCA method for project management, if you want more informations about it you can check there.

Here is a simple schema of it : 

PDCA-Multi-Loop.png

 

 

About the summoned skills : I think they can inflict elemental damages. The character summons it has elemental damages, so it has to inflict elemental damages as other skills do. Maybe some spells will have to be balanced, but if they become too strong then we can maybe have a control on them with some rates as Agitodesu proposed it.

 

Same for the element damages : Popcorn you said this new element system was so complicated to have "control, control and more control" on it. Then if people are complaining about the elemental damages being +90% of the damage output in PvP, why don't you try to adjust the values ?


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#68 Agitodesu

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 12:29 AM

Most games have a set amount of hp, defense, attack thresholds.

Healers can heal other players, have a few cc skills and kiting abilities while dealing significantly lower damage than the role of a dps, and very squishy.
Dps classes have the general role of dpsing thus has to out damage healers at the very least.
Tank classes have to be durable and provide cc as a threat to hold down priority targets with a mild damage ratio so players have to keep tanks into account.

In dragon saga,

Healers can heal no one but themselves, heals are ridiculously strong, deal more damage than any other non mage class given a still opponent. (BSQ only)(PvP/EW can heal teammates)
Dps, 3 types of dps in order of highest dps. X attack classes, Hybrid classes(x + skill), skill classes.
Tanks, 2 types, Tanks that can heal constantly(Warmages/Invokers), tanks that can't heal often(Dragoons)

There are clear difference from this game strategy than any other games that have more or less balanced pvp like Blizzard, Aeria, and En masse games.

One thing I'd like to note is that everyone here would like to think that the class they play should be able to do everything cause we are the main character. We should be able to solo missions with any class, we should be able to solo kill other players with any class, we should be able to solo elga with any class. But in reality, we cause more imbalance than balance when everyone does the same job with casts amount of skills and mechanics. We always selfishly shove away the role of the class as a whole and bring it up rarely when it fits to our best interest of the class we love most.

Edited by Agitodesu, 07 October 2016 - 10:36 AM.

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#69 GhostRed

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 12:58 AM

Hello :chomok04:

 

hmm i dont know what to say  because things got out of place . I am an old player from dragonice . i would like to say 2 things here that might help the dev to make their mind

 

1- lower the dmg of the game that will make it easier for dev to balance it . the problem here is more number(math) than any things , 

 

2-  mage class should be tier one dmg dealer in the game ,  They  are mages and meant  to do huge dmg . ( every class have their things ) stop making everything the same.

 

lastly the PvP balance  issue  is in every game 

 

Edit : 1 more idea

 

Change the Ew to flag holder ( chose one member to hold the flag and the rest def him and help him to protracted it from other team )

 

 

thanks  :chomok03:


Edited by GhostRed, 07 October 2016 - 02:25 AM.

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#70 5143121023173906760

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 01:41 AM

But I ask myself, why do you want to reduce all damage to 0? Then playing PvP is finally useless if everyone can reduce the full damage of the opponent to 0.


A real question is : Why do we have to make elements the final solution against tanks ?

In my opinion, the current element system is already fine compared to the old one.

In my deepest thoughts, I wonder why should the attack/defense system has to be flawless in PvP ? Even in PvE, just enchanting your equipements allows you to solo the final boss, which proves that there really is a problem.



I think that making elements a way to deal debuffs, or even adding items that can deal debuffs would be great if they are well balanced, such as a debuff immunity for the dragoon's equipement (or if you want to make it related to element, we can pick ice) or a final defense reduction for the overlord's equipement (or fire/demolition element).

But I still believe that balancing a game which is made of flaws is really hard and the biggest part of the community belive in you and do not want to disturb your work, and this is why only a few of us write, but many read those forums.



Also I may ask you one more thing Popcorn, I do not only suggest something because I want it. Sometimes I am just making shower thoughts and throw the idea without thinking further to see people's opinion. Maybe I should do that less often ;)
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#71 Precrush

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 02:09 AM

I'm not going to try to entangle the madness that suddenly erupted here (yet), just gonna say chill people. There are very valid points against giving element damage to summoned skills in pvp and those have been well pointed out here. It is about, and only about, how an individual weighs the potential benefits and issues. And in the end it's only up to the individuals that make the decision. Very simple.

I have a lot to say to the things touched on here, gonna have to post when I get home.

Edited by Precrush, 07 October 2016 - 02:10 AM.

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#72 stiffyliffyriffy

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 05:19 AM

The system is completely reworked. If it is "fixed" is a matter of the point of view.

However it would be possible to reduce the element damage to 0 by resistance, but this would mean, that the assigned element points for the specific elements and the element resists rates for the element exactly match the assigned element points and element damage rates of the opponent. A 100,100, 20, 20 build is risky.

 

This system is created to allow individual builds that cannot be easily tanked. 

 

But I ask myself, why do you want to reduce all damage to 0? Then playing PvP is finally useless if everyone can reduce the full damage of the opponent to 0. I can think of different scenarios that will happen:

 

- PvP will become boring because there is no winner

- PvP can still only be played by the highest stacked players

- Again a lot of players will try to find more ways to cheat to become the winner

 

 

On another note: What do you expect from the element system when it's "fixed" in your opinion? A system that is bound to the damage the char is dealing? This would finally result in the usual "the highest stacked player is the winner". If this is the case, why playing PvP if everyone knows beforehand that specific persons will win, because they're always the highest stacked players.

 

Now my honest question to these type of players: Why do you PvP if you know you will beat everyone else? Feeling good because you're the god of PvP? Feeling good that you can beat the "small" ones? That reminds me of the days in school when everyone started to harass the weakest. Where is the challenge if you know you can beat almost everyone else? Seriously, why do you want to be like this? Maybe I'm too old to understand that or I have a totally different attitude regarding this but I see no challenge in a game if I know that I can beat everyone with almost zero effort. It's just boring. I accept that there are players/people thinking like that, but that does not mean that devs of are game a sharing the same attitude or are finally happy if someone can achieve this.

How should it go on? More stats, higher stats? Faster and stronger? Damage like 500k per hit which then can be reduced to 0 by the opponent? Where would be the use rather than the same old "I need to stack more than my opponent" attitude. 

Excuse me being cynical, but if this would be the goal, we can go in PvP, stand around there and let the RNG decide who wins, because it's same exciting like fighting with everyone reducing damage to 0. Or we can go into PvP, the game calculates all stats and picks the one/the team with the highest stats because this will definitely be the one/team which wins.

Personally, I participate in battlesquare to have fun. I enjoy competing against other people in bsq and respect other people who take the time to enchant/stack their gears. Battlesquare to me was never about bullying but a game requiring teamwork to defeat their opponents.The game has become more challenging to play ever since elements was introduced. However, the game requires you to adapt to change consistently. Anytime a new component is introduced in the game it requires players to adapt and change their play style. From my personal experience playing bsq it was never the highest stacked players that won.Players that won were usually the ones that were better at teamwork. You should try to participate in bsq to see how players support one another  to win.

Elements in my opinion are fine now but it will be complete once its implemented on every skill so that every class can deal maximum damage to players who stack the most resist in the game even with +20 gears. Single stacking 8 pieces of element attack allows one to damage 1k+ on any opponent in any battlesquare range or pvp now so the tides can turn in the game instantaneously. no one can tank anything. This makes it more challenging and fun.  


Edit:Well at the moment not every class. But once element is added to all skills it will be the case. 

 


Edited by stiffyliffyriffy, 07 October 2016 - 05:38 AM.

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#73 Eyaz

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 06:43 AM

Working hard Popcorn~ Don't let people get you down. Always appreciate the stuff you do  :p_smile:


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#74 Precrush

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 07:11 AM

Alright, hope this wont take too long :P

 

1. The summoned skill element damage situation is quite clear, there are good reasons to do it (consistency, clearness, fairness) and against it (possible that it'll be too strong since on sorcerer 2 skills have freeze and many summoned skills can be stacked, which enables piling huge amounts of damage onto one spot). A trial period could work, however you'd need to get accurate info on how it goes and I don't know how possible that is. But testing it on your test server and then adding it into the game for a test period would be a good way forward. If it's a bust it's a bust. One things is clear though: If summoned skills wont get element damage, then this summoned skill system should be refined and made clearer, into a clear feature instead of an oddity. One could really think it's a bug, and that's understandable since it's out of place and not explained at all anywhere. (Treatment for such a thing is always the same, either remove the out of place bug like thing or make it into a full on feature)

 

2. Summoner damage, this was shadowed by the first topic, guess they could've had different ones. But generally I don't think it matters much, if you nerf it to be from base it'll work like the buffs other classes have and summoners will still have op damage. Could also make all the buffs be from total, more work but buffs would be more rewarding. Could also not do anything, which would leave summoners with op damage again, but no harm done I guess. Any of these options are fine.

 

3.The element system thing. Having elements be the main source of damage does bring an interesting mechanic to pvp, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a problem but I for one am not too keen on it.

 

What I mean is that there are so many different ways one can build it, each with their weaknesses and benefits. You can go full on one element in resist, means people stacking that attack will do little damage to you, but all other's will do a lot. You can go split defense, where you'll have decent cover against 2 elements but take a lot of damage from the other 2. Or then you can go 4 resist, taking a fair deal of damage by everyone. Same with attack, just switched. I think such a thing being the dominant way of dealing damage is not ideal in pvp, since it can easily create situations where you just can't fight one guy for the simple reason that he totally counters you in these elements, but the next guy you may totally destroy. Simply because of one choice. Probably the best option is to focus one one element and simply avoid fights you can't win because of your choice.

 

Why I thought it was actually quite alright to have it come from the totals was that it'd get rid of this pesky chess in pvp, the one with better gear has the upper hand, not the one with the countering random choice. And then in pve you could think about which bosses you wanted to kill and such, make your decision based on that. If you ask what the difference to the past element system would be, well, it's quite simple really. Anyone could get that better gear, not just a few select people when even those probably got it due to some shady business. And the process of getting there would be clear, not up to a random chance from a very expensive box.

 

But this is why you made a good system Popcorn. You said you wanted control, well you have it. It's easy to say half everyone's element damage by changing the numbers, or whatever you want to do, and it'll still be fair to everyone. If it turns out it's not that good (we can't know yet, we can talk about that around Christmas or something lol) it can easily be changed. An element system where the random choice of element gave every match up a small random spice would be in my opinion better than it totally deciding the match up. So only like say 20-30% more damage compared to what people usually hit is what'd be my sweet spot. But again, the current system can be good, I (and apparently others too) just foresee that it could have this problem. Nothing to take too serious there, removing the system in pvp now would be a grave mistake

 

In any case having it just be a bit of extra damage with the current defense numbers and calculations wouldn't work. So for now this is better for sure.

 

4. Pvp. It's easy to not care about something if you are not particularly interested in it, obviously. But the fact is (hate saying that) that pvp is probably the region where our game lacks the most, even though it could be its strongest selling point. A mmo with fast paced, non targeting, balanced, skill based and whatnot pvp would be a killer. The pvp "community", if you can call it that, is really small, it's very hard to get a lot of opinions if there isn't a lot of people to begin with. But yeah, it is important to first get it to some sort of presentable state, it'll be easier to go from there. The veterans are probably not spouting on here to keep their own benefits, they want to make this game as good and popular as it can be. I can't really speak for anyone but myself really but that's what I think, I see no reason to think otherwise. I play cleric alright, you can nerf this class to oblivion for all I care, you can drop it's x-spam damage in pve by 60%, make all heals have +1min cooldowns and heal for max 20% hp, double are cc cooldowns. I'd love that (in the case of damage others would need nerfs too though :P) since it'd leave us with a more balanced game.

 

5. Class roles, in other games they are quite clear and have been a clear starting point in the design. In our game is more mixed, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Like people are saying here not everything has to, or in fact should, be the same. But also, every class should also be equally effective in the bigger picture. It's again ones opinion as to should dungeons be soloable or such, but It's quite clear that the same basic things should be possible on all classes. So if it's possible for summoners to solo elga, then dragoon should be able to do close enough damage to summoners that they too can do it. And preferably it wouldn't take 10 times longer. They'll do their damage differently, sustain differently, but ultimately the end result cant be outrageously far from a balanced situation because that's fair. You can give a few minutes more kill time for a tank class, however in our game anyone can be a tank, so why can't everyone be a damage dealer too.

 

 

Think that's it, the bias thing I already touched on, I try to be honest and wear my biases on my sleeve (hence the profile pic). Can never get rid of those biases, just have to live with them. 

 

I'd like people to be brave and say what they think here, even if they wont go as deep into it as some others that are way too excited about these things. Maybe it's the small forum that is a bit scary, since nothing really gets lost in the mass, but that's only a good thing. Let your voice be heard.


Edited by Precrush, 07 October 2016 - 10:49 AM.

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#75 Agitodesu

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 10:30 AM

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