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[Question] Regarding "Summoned" skills / Summoner Final Damage Amplification


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#26 Coolsam

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 08:36 AM

Sorcerer being bottom tier is a common misconception. It's actually quite fun to learn and even with bad gear you can contribute well group pvp with enough skill.

Sorcerer's lack of catching comes from the class literally having no 1v1 catching abilities until level 60+. It's just praying a freeze will land and hoping for player error for blizzards. You can do good positioning however to make up for it. But that's more for a different topic.

Summoned Skills in Pvp is a risky thing to add elements to. PvE it'll certainly help but elements don't benefit from crits anyways.
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#27 Popcorn

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 09:05 AM

Summoned Skills in Pvp is a risky thing to add elements to. PvE it'll certainly help but elements don't benefit from crits anyways.

 

Sure it's risky, that is why I said doing a "trial period" and gathering opinions, but not from only a single guild :D

And you're right, elements are calculated on top of the damage and are not affected by crits.

 

It can be seen here:

ElemDmg.jpg

 

Critical damage is as high as non critical if only element damage is calculated. Critical damage is no valid argument against putting elements on the summoned skills in PvP.

 

 

Btw, please don't mix up summoned skills and the summons of a summoner. They are two separate things and have nothing to do with each other. Summoner's summons are calculated differently.

 


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#28 Agitodesu

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 09:28 AM

What if,

 

skills had a 100% element modifier. 

summoned skills have a 50-100% element modifier.

regular attacks (x) have a 25% element modifier.

 

Elements obviously benefits classes who presses the x button the majority of the time as damage. Everyone here agrees with that and you can't deny it either since it's been complained for years.

 

Spoiler

 


Edited by Agitodesu, 05 October 2016 - 09:44 AM.

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#29 Apocryphos

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 10:27 AM

3 hours from now the element system on the client will match whats being calculated on the server will hopefully change the opinion of people. My 'guess' is ~705~ damage using 8 5* singles vs 6 5* All Resists (ofc there are different builds that output more damage at the cost of less resist protecting them)
Looking forward to this meet in the middle ordeal.


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#30 Popcorn

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 10:49 AM

So if nothing is changing stacking 1000 dark resist will block 1000 damage of any type? Just like how it is right now?

 

No. It never was that way on the server side. The client displayed wrong numbers and sometimes this resulted in an unexpected behavior. The server calculated the thing correctly all the time. That was why I saw the right numbers but you saw the "wrong" numbers. That is why I always said I can't see anything wrong when checked the server side calculations. 

After today's maintenance you will see the right numbers as it is intended. And the sometimes unexpected behavior will be gone, because due to this calculation "irritations" the client messed up some damage calculations. That's all. Theoretically, how the calculation on the server side always worked, 1000 dark resist can only block up to 1000 dark attack and not any other element.

 

However, my personal opinion on the summoned skill matter is especially the example with the mage classes:

Why should an invoker have element damage on rain of fire while the sorcerer has no element damage on blizzard like Fliederduft78 already pointed out. Since blizzard is nearly the same type of skill. 

 

As Starkespada1 always pointed out, a trial period wouldn't hurt. And if it's going crazy we just revert it a week later.

 


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#31 Popcorn

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 10:59 AM

 

What if,

 

skills had a 100% element modifier. 

summoned skills have a 50-100% element modifier.

regular attacks (x) have a 25% element modifier.

 

 

 

Not a bad idea, but as I always state I am not deep enough into PvP to see/feel how it will affect it. This is why I am all for trial/testing periods PvP-wise. :) 

 

This topic is not here to say "We just put it in. Live with it." but also not for "We don't want it and we don't want to test it.". 

 

The main problem is still that there are not enough people participating in such discussions to get a full picture of what the community wants/needs and what not. Especially when it comes to PvP there are always highly dedicated players which want to see their ideas/statements implemented or totally deny things. 

 

But I think you can understand that we can not completely rely on the opinions of a few and can call it a community decision.


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#32 Agitodesu

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 11:32 AM

Comparing rain of fire to blizzard is plausible, but the effectiveness is completely a separate matter. Rain of fire is nearly never used if you want to optimally pvp. Blizzard has heavy cc and is possible to use almost every skill in the sorcerers arsenal except awakenings. Rain of fire does nothing but do minuscule damage compared to just holding x. In pve rain of fire is used to get rank, however it is probably only beneficial in damage when you don't have a decent weapon i.e.+0 weapon against a grouped up mob. However holding a slightly stronger weapon, holding x after a magnet in a group would be better than pressing rain of fire after a magnet. It would be best to compare rain of fire to meteor rain or whatever to summoner since they both provide burn, no cc, same visuals.

However I feel as if the strongest cc class also has the ability to dps a high amount would be unhealthy.
Invoker+summoner+warmage are the universal team composition in pvp and players who are against such composition that are NOT the same as stated have nearly no chance of winning. Where do the other classes stand? They are just bugs being a nuisance not being a major threat compared to these 3. I will state it once more, warmages were never low tier in pvp because of damage, it was because the ability to catch.

In the end when you think about sorcerers from a class/lore/definition separate from the game they tend to be a high damage dealing class rather than a support. It's just that the amount of cc is too high to give them a bigger boost in damage. If they lost the intense locking potential and received catching skills it will be completely logical to boost the damage, however in pvp I just think putting very high damage on cc doesn't make sense to me, since cc is there for others or yourself to dps the target. Not outdps 60% of the other classes while having no counter play in many situations in group pvp. Being frozen and stunned is the highest form of cc. No other classes have a repetitive chaining cc that works on its own without the actual player being in a dangerous position. I.e. A n overlord has to be up close and be in the fight while sorcerers can heal run around drop a blizzard in a magnet and run around some more and dps when safe. This outdamages and provides more team play than what an overlord/paladin/savage/ninja/destroyer can provide in a fight.

In the end in not completely against sorcerers getting elemental damage, but due to all the reasons above I'm more like 80% siding on sorcerers not getting elements, 20% on them getting it.


Edited by Agitodesu, 05 October 2016 - 11:52 AM.

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#33 Apocryphos

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 12:04 PM

Question why do people think rain of fire is a summoned/standalone skill? The priest is locked in the animation and the skill itself ends after its animation all clear indications of it not being a standalone skill.
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#34 Agitodesu

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 12:08 PM

Also when canceled due to an attack on the caster, it interrupts the skill making it do no damage or cut it short. Making it not go off "on its own" unlike blizzard.


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#35 Popcorn

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 12:29 PM

Question why do people think rain of fire is a summoned/standalone skill? The priest is locked in the animation and the skill itself ends after its animation all clear indications of it not being a standalone skill.

 

Because not everyone is as smart as you? :)


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#36 Apocryphos

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 04:46 PM

Mixed feelings on the working element system. balanced in its own way. no more tank meta thank god.


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#37 100000672303982

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 09:08 PM

Okay after reading many posts I realised one thing. Alot of the "suggestions posts" are focused on pvp and that some may forget to take into account pve (which seems like what alot of the GMs are trying not to neglect). I would have to say that sorcerers having elemental damage is a good idea. PvP wise I can finally see end game sorcs doing some decent damage rather than just having to wait for their "frontal attack" peers while spamming blizzard. A pro sorc once told me "theres no point in using 15* ancient caracha solar, its going to be pointless, u would still be dealing double digit damage". Im not sure if this statement is true, but it would be good for sorc to have some extra damage (but not too much, the element modifier is a good idea thou it sounds like alot work for the moderators). No doubt sorcs are not low-tier in terms of pvp, its most likely mid-tier.

As for PvE wise, as a sorcerer, its actually personally quite frustrating to see my sorc not being able to groggy boss and watch him convert back to normal (while many of the other classes tend to be like 'wew, so easy to grog :P). Tbh, i dont even recall missile to be good at groggyinf either. The only way is to probly use magma piston. (I think?)

I would say there are two things that everyone is juggling with now in this topic: Equity and Equality. Equity is where by everyone has the same amount. Equality is whereby everyone gets the same amount. It would be fair (equal) for summoned skills to get element damage as well but imbalance may occur (equity compromised). Hence, i think that it is would be a good idea to implement element damage on summoned skills then regulating damage of the class's skills rather than implementing for awhile to test water then removing it completely if it doesnt go well. :)
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#38 Popcorn

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 11:41 PM

(but not too much, the element modifier is a good idea thou it sounds like alot work for the moderators). No doubt sorcs are not low-tier in terms of pvp, its most likely mid-tier.


That's not really a lot of work. It's quite easy to implement a modifier to PvP enemies if this is needed.
There is only one limitation: the modifier can't be different for every "summoned" skill. With a higher effort that might be possible to be different for every class though.
 

I would say there are two things that everyone is juggling with now in this topic: Equity and Equality. Equity is where by everyone has the same amount. Equality is whereby everyone gets the same amount. It would be fair (equal) for summoned skills to get element damage as well but imbalance may occur (equity compromised). Hence, i think that it is would be a good idea to implement element damage on summoned skills then regulating damage of the class's skills rather than implementing for awhile to test water then removing it completely if it doesnt go well. :)


I agree to this statement.
I know that trial phases and the constant changes resulting of this can be annoying for the players but finally it's the only way to find a good balance every player can live with.
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#39 Precrush

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 08:29 AM

As I said somewhere, you can't really get an accurate and non-biased picture here on the forum since it is a relatively small group of people, just gotta focus on their reasonings imo.

It's hard to say how good sorcerers would be, I think in group pvp it's pretty likely that an ally can stop a sorcerer from going on too long. It's extra hard since we still don't quite know how the new ele system will work in a bigger picture. But as I said I recon it should be fine although sorcerer is not the class that would need buffs.

I dunno, I would be ready to give some cooldown or smaller aoes or such nerfs to these skills just so giving them element damage could be easily justified. I really, really like consistancy :P

But if not, I'd like clear indication in the game of what is and what is not a summoned skill, what that means and prefearably also some nice fantasy reason why. (Example: "Elements reside deep with in you and cannot be transfered into the external effects you create, they have a will of their own"). That'd make it like a clear feature as supposed to a clarity.
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#40 5143121023173906760

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 08:40 AM

I think the fact that sorcerer's skills don't deal any element damage wasn't intended, and just like the recent Twin Figther change, I think that this needs to be fixed.

Now for those saying sorcerer would become too op, keep in mind that sorcerer is the only class that can't catch / start a combo while the opponent is moving, so assuming how hard it is for sorcerers to land a hit (especially in 1vs1) while someone is playing with a hit and run playstyle, I don't see anything wrong with making them stronger (and they won't even be better than X spam classes) !
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#41 Agitodesu

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 09:11 AM

I think the fact that sorcerer's skills don't deal any element damage wasn't intended, and just like the recent Twin Figther change, I think that this needs to be fixed.

Now for those saying sorcerer would become too op, keep in mind that sorcerer is the only class that can't catch / start a combo while the opponent is moving, so assuming how hard it is for sorcerers to land a hit (especially in 1vs1) while someone is playing with a hit and run playstyle, I don't see anything wrong with making them stronger (and they won't even be better than X spam classes) !

 

They have literally 0 problems catching in team based pvp due to other classes have solid cc for a follow up blizzard/penguin.

Wether or not they get a damage boost it doesn't change the fact that they lack the ability to catch by themselves. So you can't justify it based purely on 1 factor without including the obvious other factors. That logic wouldn't be different from repetitive use. 

 

Sorcerers can't catch so lets boost damage.

Sorcerers still can't catch so lets boost damage.

sorcerers can't catch in general so we should boost damage.

 

The problem is still there while buffing something not needed.

 

The can't catch issue can be solved with team mates. In a 1v1 where they are tested on how they can catch or if ever is solely on the design of the class.


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#42 5143121023173906760

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 10:39 AM

I don't see this change as a buff, but more like a bug fixing. The lack of catching skills is just here to show that sorcerers wont be broken by such change. I'm not asking for more since I do not even want to use the elemental system yet.

As for making catching skills, I'm pretty sure that we could change some of the current unused skills to make them "catchy", but that's for an another topic. ;)
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#43 Agitodesu

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 10:52 AM

I think you missed the point. They already have high presence with damage and cc. You're  only looking at 1v1s, not ew, bsq,and any type of pvp which contains more than 2 players. I've seen some sorcerers in bsq kill me with 30k Mdef+ without any help. I'd like to mention all Patk classes rarely even get this much Mdef.

 

Then again, my logic was completely crushed anyway since I always wanted default attack and defense to be primary damage and elements secondary. Considering how elements are practically up to 90%+ amount of total damage end game to some classes, I can see why shoving elements everywhere would balance things out. You can literally Kill anyone in 40-81 bsq with a level 1 weapon with max elements faster than before.

 


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#44 Popcorn

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 11:28 AM

What makes me thinking about your statement is... when not everyone was able to get elemental damage easily it was okay for some "elitist" to have a high amount of elemental damage output. But now when we changed the system to give everyone a chance to get the elemental damage you want as less as possible.

 

Sometimes it looks more like some people are scared to lose their dominating status to players who are not that "veteran". (This is my personal opinion, btw).

 

However, that's only my personal thoughts.

I think we'll do a trial period for PvP and look how it works out and look how it really affects everything. 

I mean, no one can really tell me that a sorcerer doing elemental damage on the summoned skills can beat the Helix Shooting Summoner which is always doing the elemental damage with every hit in ultra speed.

 


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#45 Popcorn

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 11:32 AM

I don't see this change as a buff, but more like a bug fixing. 

 

I agree to that. The more I think about what they did the more it looks like they did what they always did... not thinking about anything. Basically they set own Aim rates to the summoned skills, which didn't work. They totally unlinked the summoned skills from the player, setting only a bunch of basic informations from the players to it and never thought what will happen to any other things, like elements, when the data from the player is not acquired. Then they saw that Aim is also not working properly and instead of reverting that crap they just removed the full aim/evade formula, because it was easier.


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#46 Starkespada1

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 12:02 PM

Eh i was against giving skills element damage before maintenance but after seeing everyone's kill potential after the maintenance I'm leaning towards in favor of it.

 

Only reason being is because no one can tank anything anymore, a blizzard hitting around 2k's on some one isn't going to matter since it just takes 1 catch from any class to kill some one in seconds now. 

 

My only problem with elements being dominant damage in pvp is that it's making solar rings less and less viable for pvp since solar ring damage is minuscule in pvp even the 15* cerberus rings. It use to compliment the old 6* element attack cards so they were nice to use back then. But Solar rings do not really do anything in pvp with the new element system, same thing for lunar rings they no longer have any use in pvp as they no longer compliment elemental resistance. If this element system is here to stay then only Stella rings would be worth it in pvp

 

Also as for the summoners final magic attack think it's safe to leave it alone since every class now has kill potential which was one of the main reasons people complained about it. Sure they still have the best dps but now we no longer have to rely on that class to kill tanks which was a big problem.


Edited by Starkespada1, 06 October 2016 - 12:04 PM.

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#47 Agitodesu

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 12:11 PM

What makes me thinking about your statement is... when not everyone was able to get elemental damage easily it was okay for some "elitist" to have a high amount of elemental damage output. But now when we changed the system to give everyone a chance to get the elemental damage you want as less as possible.

 

​Most of these elitists wanted to remove/nerf elements from the game so when was it actually okay? It was reworked because it was not okay not because it was okay.

 

Elements are consistent damage that overpowers most skills damage from pure Patk/Matk. My points in this entire topic were elements in sorcerer skills and default x attacks of specific classes and how elements revolve around certain things.

 

Sometimes it looks more like some people are scared to lose their dominating status to players who are not that "veteran". (This is my personal opinion, btw).

 

This sentence can be used to defend any stance at anytime. 

Ie. Buff Elements for everyone-> veterans scared that they will lose dominating status.

Nerf elements for everyone->veterans scared that they will lose dominating status.

Nerf Summoners -> veterans scared that they will lose dominating status.

Buff every other class than the "already op ones" -> Veterans scared that they will lose dominating status.

 

I can go on but it seems like a weak fallback or just plain bias against those.

 

 I have stacked characters and non stacked characters, I pve and pvp, I side with the ones that aren't elitists. I could care less about losing to anyone or winning in general.

 

However, that's only my personal thoughts.

I think we'll do a trial period for PvP and look how it works out and look how it really affects everything. 

I mean, no one can really tell me that a sorcerer doing elemental damage on the summoned skills can beat the Helix Shooting Summoner which is always doing the elemental damage with every hit in ultra speed.

 

As I previously said Im not completely against sorcerers getting elements. You don't deny that helix shot summoners attacks are the highest form of damage in the game.

 

 

Looking at what starkespada said, I think it makes sense to reverse everything.

 

+20ing anything requires much more money/gold farming than farming elements.

Elements are accessible to everyone just like how enchanting is for everyone.

Elements will be the primary source of damage in pvp.

Enchanting your weapon will help pve more than pvp.

Elements being the primary damage source letting mage classes in particular wipe anyone in pvp.

 

1 thing this doesn't solve though is that the 3 mage classes are completely op compared to other classes in terms of damage, healing, and effectiveness(cc).

 


Edited by Agitodesu, 06 October 2016 - 12:20 PM.

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#48 Coolsam

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 12:58 PM

Looking at what starkespada said, I think it makes sense to reverse everything.

 

+20ing anything requires much more money/gold farming than farming elements.

Elements are accessible to everyone just like how enchanting is for everyone.

Elements will be the primary source of damage in pvp.

Enchanting your weapon will help pve more than pvp.

Elements being the primary damage source letting mage classes in particular wipe anyone in pvp.

 

1 thing this doesn't solve though is that the 3 mage classes are completely op compared to other classes in terms of damage, healing, and effectiveness(cc).

 

I agree on this.

 

1st; It's actually giving a buff to 2 of the god-tier mage classes. Adding elements on top of Invokers and Overloading the damage of Sorcerors without any adjustments to skill calculations.

2nd; Why bother doing +20's in general, gold or IM, if farming elements for a set of 7 Attack cards will give me optimal damage. I'd just stockpile the gold to make a +20 weapon and use that to speed up the element farm.

3rd; This dooms any concept of survivability. Tank meta has justified reasons to fix but making everyone w/o healing a glass cannon isn't gonna solve PvP.

4th; Resistances will be only useful for the larger fractions that do have your element. Forcing numerous instances of spying on competition and what's the "current most farmed" so you can avoid it. I'd see the same player cycling his elements multiple times a month.


Edited by Coolsam, 06 October 2016 - 01:15 PM.

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#49 Agitodesu

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 01:00 PM

Go to 81 bsq with a +0 broken weapon if you have all your elements, I will guarantee you will be hitting 1000-3000 damage minimum.

 

 

Not just 81, go to any form of pvp, bsq, and slap on a +0 broken weapon with complete elements.

 


Edited by Agitodesu, 06 October 2016 - 01:28 PM.

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#50 Coolsam

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 01:15 PM

Go to 81 bsq with a +0 broken weapon if you have all your elements, I will guarantee you will be hitting 1000-3000 damage minimum.

 

Precisely. The making enchantment unnecessary basically says all your value should go to two things;

 

1st; Acquiring Gear

2nd; Acquiring Optimal Element Attack Cards

 

But the 3rd part (Enchant the gear) for when elements aren't gonna cut it. Will become optional. Meaning any of the big contenders with literal hundreds or even thousands of enchantments, randomizes. And tens, hundreds of thousands or even millions in sockets will be cut by a severe margin. IM rates will solely be for insurance (For the sake of card building), extractors and maybe randomizers for Movement speed or Pet rerolling.

 

I understand the desire to "Make things accessible to everyone". But there's a point where it's too far.


Edited by Coolsam, 06 October 2016 - 01:20 PM.

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