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Battlemagician Week 2 Discussions


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#1 Alteris

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 02:26 PM

Hello Battlemagicians,

This week we will discussing various things about the Battlemagician class. Please keep the discussions to the following items for organizing purposes:

Change/Modify Skills and DNA- What skills do you think should be changed or modified? What DNA skills should be changed or Modified?

Remove Existing Skills and DNA - What skills need to be remove? What DNA should be removed?

New idea for a skill or DNA - What new skills/DNA should be added? (Special Note: We know this section will be creating a lot more traffic than usual. When thinking of ideas, please make it as detailed as possible with ranks, stats, duration, mana cost, property, duration, ect..)

Other topics for this class will be discussed in the following weeks.

Please keep the discussion polite, arguments for and against will have to be backed with detail and/or data, saying something needs to be added without a reason or example will be not considered.

EX: We need a dash skill because when fighting other players, our movement is always below that of other classes and we are constantly being kited. We believe a boost of 40 feet, for a 100 mana cost skill with 60 second cooldown will help us close our gap with the enemy while still costing us mana. The cooldown will also make it so that we use it wisely rather than spam the ability. This should only be a druid ability under XXXX form. (YES!)

EX: We want a fire nuke that is Area Effect because the shaman class has one and we need one. (NO!)
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#2 Wreckd

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 03:07 PM

Hey mate,
So for 4 weeks we have to keep repeating the same idea to the same thread except there's a different number in the thread title? Cmon this is going to take too long. Cut it from 4 weeks to 2 weeks and implement it right after. This is going to be rather annoying and draggy.
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#3 Lithi

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 03:13 PM

...

Re-Use of Season 1 Skills/DNA (data of S1 skills will come sometime this week). - What season 1 skill do you think should be reintroduced to Requiem?

...



You announced to post this one week ago. Can you please add them now ?!
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#4 Cleffy

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 03:24 PM

I would like a utility throw that can be turned into whatever throw the Elementalist designates it as. Basically it is a 2 part skill, 1 affects the power, and 1 affects the element.
Since most Elementalist Attacks are Water based, this attack will be a water element by default.

Skill Name: Throwing Ion Core
Level: 50
Range: 20m
Cast-time: Instant
Cooldown-time: 5 Sec
Element: Water
Description: A magic throw that the caster can change the property of based on the affinity they choose.
Level  |  1  |  2  |  3  |  4  |  5  |  6  |  7  |  8  |  9  |  10 |
Damage | 150 | 175 | 200 | 225 | 250 | 280 | 320 | 370 | 430 | 500 |


Name: Changing Ion Core
Range: Self
Cast-time: 10 sec
Cooldown: 120 sec
Duration: 600 sec
Description: Allows the caster to choose the elemental property of Throw Ion Core.
Level 1: Water, Wind
Level 2: Water, Wind, Fire
Level 3: Water, Wind, Fire, Lightning
Level 4: Water, Wind, Fire, Lightning, Curse
Level 5: Water, Wind, Fire, Lightning, Curse, Light

Edited by Cleffy, 19 February 2013 - 03:24 PM.

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#5 Fudd

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 03:26 PM

A few ideas from the previous thread that I did like were:

-Inferno having a boost. Swift arm and Swift leg should be merged with inferno. Inferno should have more damage. And it should have more skills to spam. This way inferno will be a lot more usefull to play. Right now it's used to avoid being feared and/or to stun one/multiple targets. Both physical skills are usefull, but I think we need more (AOE)skills for the inferno. I also liked the idea of changing the inferno dash to a dash with stun. That dash/stun should last only 1 second and it should have a lower cooldown (not 5sec ofcourse). MP consumption should be lowered.

Edited by Fudd, 19 February 2013 - 03:29 PM.

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#6 Wreckd

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 03:34 PM

A few ideas from the previous thread that I did like were:

-Inferno having a boost. Swift arm and Swift leg should be merged with inferno. Inferno should have more damage. And it should have more skills to spam. This way inferno will be a lot more usefull to play. Right now it's used to avoid being feared and/or to stun one/multiple targets. Both physical skills are usefull, but I think we need more (AOE)skills for the inferno. I also liked the idea of changing the inferno dash to a dash with stun. That dash/stun should last only 1 second and it should have a lower cooldown (not 5sec ofcourse). MP consumption should be lowered.



We're gonna have to repeat ourselves for 2 more weeks. all good bro. The joys of copy + paste function. Anyway check your profile post.
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#7 Viole

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 04:16 PM

Changes/Modification:
Spoiler


Battle Magician:
  • Hydrochloric Acid Throw - The main problem with this skill is the accessibility of it on both trees, that combined with the DNA to lower the cool down to 7 seconds is very strong, but that is not the problem. The problem is the availability of this skills DNA to Druids, and the ability to also be able to max it out to hit 7 targets combined with the DNA on Approach to make that a 5 second cooldown means that you can effectively chase a target and have both skills up within a rotation of another skill (example being: HCL, Invisible Arrow, Dash [this being the start of a usual chain of skills]) Personally, I think the ability to spam this should only be available pre-49 to Battle Magicians, and post-50 to Elementalists. Everything else is fine about it, but it's the availability to Druids that is the main problem with this as it is used even more than transformations currently.
  • Raging Strike - This skill was heavily nerfed for Elementalists, it was their third source of magic damage, and being the best nukers (or at least from a design aspect they should be) it doesn't make sense. First, you have to land the skill in order to get the buff, and you don't always get the buff that being said. Before this skill used to scale at 34/39/44/50/57/64/73/82/91/102, now it scales at 1-3/2-6/3-9/4-12/5-15/6-18/7-21/8-24/9-27/10-30 without the available DNA on it. It only scales up to 50 max damage, this shouldn't be like this. If possible the higher levels of the skill should only be available to Elementalists as well, but the damage should be tweaked to whatever value people find fit (considering the level needed to cap this is 57)
  • Wave of Healing - This being tweaked I see as option, but currently this heal does not crit. If this isn't changed there is still Absorbing Energy that does heal for a high value (but requires 10 DNA investment into it since generally you leave the skill at 5 and invest the DNA for another 50%) But as I said, this one is optional seeing as other classes rely on their single heal from their first tree only as well.
  • Mysterious Storm - This is another troublesome skill, but not because of the DNA. It is troublesome because of the lack of resistance for it. (Given the fact that currently most players have everything except this resistance maxed due to elec resist sets being the most popular, but it could be argued for HCL too since the next popular set is Fire Resist based thus providing you with little to no water resistance and by all means I consider HCL to be more dangerous of the two) This should also be modified for Druids post-50 as it is another weapon in their arsenal, that combined with their mobility makes them deadly
  • Lightning Chill Slash- Just change the damage back to physical and you will see this more viable as a druid, it's under a one second cooldown and rarely used in favor of Lightning Chill Throw, which also has a one second cooldown. This skill could become a bread and butter skill for Druid again like it was previously.
Overall, these skills need to be tweaked in order to increase the popularity of Elementalists, and decrease the popularity of Druids (or what the community dubs 'Druideles'), Things can be tweaked around these changes to make both classes viable in their own unique ways. Of course there are other skills such as Thrown Vine that can be tweaked, but my experience with those skills are little to none due to how unviable I saw them as.

Druid:
  • Rage of Bugs: Apart from being the most hated skill next to approach, this should simply not be on a sub-class' skill set that is based around transformations. First off, it is Light property magic damage, which at some PvP brackets is not a resist that is maxed out by many; but there are ways around this. The problem is that it is a skill based on magic, not your physical damage, everything else in Druids skill set screams physical except this. Elementalists would definitely benefit from having this skill and the subsequent DNAs for it.
  • Promise of Trust/Cry of Will - Make these party buffs.
Now onto the transformations:
  • Contract with Inferno/Doomguard: The first thing wrong with these skills is the mana cost, currently it is not beneficial to use your transformations for PvP to skill spam unless you have to use the stuns for them (or in rare cases the extra dash) Lowering the mana costs would allow Druids to rely on their transformations more.
  • In terms of the individual contracts Inferno should have 'Swift Arm' (providing -0.2, -0.4, -0.6, -0.8, -1.0 Attack Speed) built in to the contract. Why? Because the more PvE side of a Druid build relys heavily on the attack speed as it is Critical Attack Damage based, it also frees up 5 skill points to be distributed elsewhere for both styles. Currently there is no other reason to level up Inferno for Druids, unless you go full physical which is highly unattractive because of the comparison in mana costs and high risk versus low reward in terms of damage dealt. You waste about 1.5k mana using 8 or so (max level or close to) BM/Druid skills from 20 meters away, versus using 1.8k for about 4 offensive Inferno Skills, and 1 Defensive or Offensive Dash while subsequently dealing extremely inferior damage. This skill is such a shame to waste as a level 1 wonder, which is the current condition of it, it gives a monstrous bonus to your attack damage when maxed, but BM skills are still more attractive because of the risk/reward.
In terms of individual skills for this form:
  • Advance - Two dashes for 25m? Okay, that's a bit strong considering the other class with dashes can only go 30m once or 18m/15m twice. This skill is fine in my book, I would just wish to see it as something offensive that is targeted like a Commander 'Rush'. The cooldown on it is 16 seconds, which is long enough.
  • Swift Leg - 5 wasted points here for a +1.0 movespeed buff for 5 minutes, this could be better suited for an attack skill. This tree has enough mobility as is.
  • Double Slash - This is currently our most spammed skill as Inferno, the damage values at level 1 (126) and level 10 of the skill (+323) are good and it being a 6 second downtime skill is fine, but I wouldn't mind tweaking this skill down to 5 points to max it, or lowering the cooldown and leaving it as is. Currently this and Bleeding are our only spammable skills.
  • Bleeding - The only other spammable skill, and I use this loosely as it has a 10 second cooldown. The additional damage on this skill is also less than Double Slash (+171 vs +323) but, this skill also has a 16/2 30 second DoT at level 5 or higher.
There could be other skills added to this tree to make it a Druids main form of offense and make the BM form a bit more defensive/utility. But, this would require a lot of careful thought as you don't want to create another melee monster.
  • Now onto Doomguard, again we have the problem here with the subsequent buffs/skills under this tree not being worthwhile to skill aside from Heavy Blow and Staggering Shout. First what needs to be done is to combine the skill 'HP UP',(Providing HP Recovery %) into the contract, And removing 'Strengthened Skin' as it is a useless defense buff considering you can sit at 3.5k defense comfortably given the proper build.
Individually speaking:
  • Healing Power - I remember when this skill was actually worth taking, as the heal provided an ACTUAL heal and not a weak heal over-time. It used to scale from 345/385/432/481/539 with the ability to critically heal, which was very strong with 'Druideles' as they could pop doomguard on Battlegrounds and heal for most of their HP while being immune. Then it was changed to a HoT, with the minimum value being 10/2 for 10 seconds, and the maximum value being 91/2 for 20 seconds. If you change the Battle Magician skills I previously mentioned, then this skill should not be a problem as Druids will be more melee based. In order for this skill and the intended transformation as a tank I think the Heals previous value and the HoT should be combined much like Lesser Party Heal from the Protector tree.
  • Giantizing - It's your standard HP buff for Doomguard, the problem is that it is a 8 point sink for only +1883 HP, if a druid is investing that many points for that return then they are missing out on other things they could skill, this buff is only lasting as a Doomguard. Currently it gives the same HP as a full DNA'd Holy Bliss exclusively to Doomguard, the values would be better if it was more like a fully DNA'd Bear-like Stamina (+2424 HP) as it is form exclusive. (Personal note, if you cast this on BG to escape, you're probably going to die anyway.)
  • Taunting Cry- Double the aggro, decease the cooldown to 5 seconds, and decrease the amount of points needed to invest in it. It is the only way for a Doomguard to build up aggro on a target, but it's currently at a +3375 for 10 points. Not too many people invest a full 10 into this skill, especially seeing as it is the only means to generate aggro because the damage from Doomguard is very poor, and there are no other skills to increase hostility towards you if you try to tank traditionally. For example, in an equally geared party your Damage dealers will ALWAYS get aggro after a while, even if you use this skill often.
Both transformations need some new skills in order to fit the intended roles for them better, but changing these things is a start.

Elementalists:
  • Holy Bliss/Fairy King's Protection/ Bliss of Fairy - The first change is simple, make these party buffs. The second change is increasing the damage done by Bliss of Fairy, it used to be +114/128/+143/+159/+175/+191/+208/+215/+232/+252. The values should not be this high, if it becomes a party buff. If it becomes a self-buff you will find yourself at odds with other players given the recent magic attack passive nerfs. If you do intend to ramp up the damage given by Bliss of Fairy it should be at a reasonable level, but the current values for this are extremely low and don't even merit even more than 1 point in the skill. As for Fairy King's Protection, raising the resistance given from the skill to %14 would fulfill a lot of the complaints that certain players have had about there only being defense party buffs and not being any resistance party buffs at all.
For Elementalists a lot need to be changed too, which I'm not one hundred percent familiar with, but I don't believe in giving this class a dash as it is just taking what people think the problem is and putting it somewhere new making another problem.

In short, both of these classes require extensive tweaking and definition as to what their roles are. But these skills are what I, and many other people I've discussed with view as lacking/and or in need of a change because of their strength. Of course this is just a start.

Edited by Viole, 19 February 2013 - 04:18 PM.

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#8 Viole

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 04:18 PM

A few ideas from the previous thread that I did like were:

-Inferno having a boost. Swift arm and Swift leg should be merged with inferno. Inferno should have more damage. And it should have more skills to spam. This way inferno will be a lot more usefull to play. Right now it's used to avoid being feared and/or to stun one/multiple targets. Both physical skills are usefull, but I think we need more (AOE)skills for the inferno. I also liked the idea of changing the inferno dash to a dash with stun. That dash/stun should last only 1 second and it should have a lower cooldown (not 5sec ofcourse). MP consumption should be lowered.


Should just remove swift leg. You'd be looking at a 2.0m/s boost for Inferno, remember Inferno already has 1.0m/s built into it at level 10.
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#9 Deevious

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 05:36 PM

Basically what i read here is you guys want a druid who can charge in and stun like a zerkers burning dash, AE stun cast rage of bugs,melee when silenced,larger Hp buffs and better heals. I thought this was for balancing? The problem with your class isn't the skills you have it's that you have 20 to 30k Hp with max resists and over capped def. Put in there the fact that you can move around the board faster then most classes and can heal makes you an unbalanced class.They don't give melee classes resist buffs and casters shouldn't have def buffs. The days of casters needing def buffs to xp died long ago.

* oh and you want your skills to cost less mana so you can worry less about mana gear and pack on more HP gear. Good call.

Edited by Deevious, 19 February 2013 - 05:38 PM.

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#10 Viole

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 05:38 PM

You obviously have trouble reading.
Where did I mention there being a stun equivalent to Burning Dash?

Also, you've probably never played a BM based class at 85 before too.

Better heals? That's only on Doomguard, and hey guess what. It's for tanking, not PvP. WoH can be untouched. Why make a tank transformation if it can't do it's job?

20-30k hp? You're going at a +30 scenario.

And Druids a caster?
Go check the wiki and read how many magic skills we have in our tree rofl.

You obviously never saw a druid before the Druidele balance patch as well. See the fact that I (and many others) want to re-assign ourselves to our intended melee transformation based class is also a nerf in itself. Because why? Simple. All of our skills are affected by hushes now, even the physical damage based ones. Essentially, we would run a high risk setup, instead of the current low risk setup.

Last point to add, the changes I put forth are changes that would make the class rely less on BM form, so hey guess what? No dashing around as often and casting at you from 30m

If you're not going to critically read the post and continuously fail to make an argument that is not centered around item mall, then leave the topic please and thank you. You're wasting the time anybody who chooses to reply to your 'genius' insight otherwise, and on that note this is the only reply you'll get from me.

Edited by Viole, 19 February 2013 - 06:06 PM.

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#11 Sparda

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 06:14 PM

u should post S1 skill tree and effects

offtopic make PB armor has skills like S1 :D
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#12 Deevious

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 06:31 PM

This game is centered around the Item mall. people are not asking for balance cause theres a bunch of solid +5 druids running around kicking butt. the problem is the +30 ones going 160 -4 in the battlefields. You make the +5 ones stronger you make the +30 ones stronger and there will be +30 ones.

That's only on Doomguard, and hey guess what. It's for tanking, not PvP. WoH can be untouched. Why make a tank transformation if it can't do it's job?


So commanders and protectors need 2400 hp buffs too. Commanders prolly some def buffs as well as i bet you get more then they do from your buffs and they are a tank class.

Also, you've probably never played a BM based class at 85 before too.


I don't need to play that class to know what it's about. You dash across the board and transform, ae stun, cast rage of bugs dash off and transform so no one can stun you as you stroll off. Doomguard should Have a 1.5 second cast time on it too. So the sins can catch you before you can get away and transform. Since you only want to use it for raiding you shouldn't have a problem with it.

I'm not knocking the work you put into what you wrote.But you have to base your skills on +30 toons because there will be +30 toons of every class.Overbearing needs nerf ,stealing weapon needs nerf, Adamant mind, the list goes on and on.

All of our skills are affected by hushes now, even the physical damage based ones.


Well then it's right on track with you being a caster class.

Edited by Deevious, 19 February 2013 - 06:34 PM.

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#13 Cleffy

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 06:31 PM

There are 4 S1 skills that were removed going to S2.

Poison Mastery - Increases Poison Resistance
Awakening - Increases Evasion
Knuckle Strike - Melee ranged attack
Brain Smash - Melee ranged attack that decreases hostility.

Edited by Cleffy, 19 February 2013 - 06:31 PM.

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#14 Viole

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 06:48 PM

This game is centered around the Item mall. people are not asking for balance cause theres a bunch of solid +5 druids running around kicking butt. the problem is the +30 ones going 160 -4 in the battlefields. You make the +5 ones stronger you make the +30 ones stronger and there will be +30 ones.


So commanders and protectors need 2400 hp buffs too. Commanders prolly some def buffs as well as i bet you get more then they do from your buffs and they are a tank class.



I don't need to play that class to know what it's about.



Essentially my first priority was to remove every single aspect of a caster from Druid, that's why I pointed out strictly that you did not read it CAREFULLY. The +5 ones hardly get their job done, I know the difference between that gear disparity first hand. Also, the skill for HP is OPTIONAL, you obviously do need to play the class to know what it's about in the physical sense, and only a handful of Druids that would even post in this topic now have played old physical SS Druid. What you described in essence was the 'Druidele' fad that I want gone. I don't need rage of bugs, if anything I wish I could still have my Druid that was great at 1v1 lockdown, but bad at multiple targets, but am I going to get that? No, I highly doubt that. So the next best thing is to play into the physical aspect of our skill set, and make that more appealing than your Dash->HCL->MS->WW->LCT->HCL->Dash->DG->AoE Stun->RoB->Dash away play-style. Like I said, you don't know the class at all, so you really can't balance to the other aspect of the tree. When you switch to purely physical based damage, you'd be at 20 meters max for two or three skills, then 4m the rest of the time. And I want to make the priority transform Inferno, not DG, both are one point wonders right now and not maxed because it's worth skilling BM skills higher. (This makes DG strictly utility based, and you'd have less chance of dodging a stun unless you predict it since Inferno is priority to keep up your damage)

Edited by Viole, 19 February 2013 - 06:57 PM.

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#15 Deevious

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 07:05 PM

i understand what you are saying. But if you did get physical based damage how many of your stuns will remain? It would be a melee class like a commander with more stuns,Def,resists and the ability to heal lol. Whats the total amount of time you can stun someone for with all your stuns added together in a 1 vs 1 scenario?
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#16 Viole

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 07:20 PM

i understand what you are saying. But if you did get physical based damage how many of your stuns will remain? It would be a melee class like a commander with more stuns,Def,resists and the ability to heal lol. Whats the total amount of time you can stun someone for with all your stuns added together in a 1 vs 1 scenario?


12 Seconds before, + 6 seconds now with the new stun, before that was only enough time to kill casters who didn't have good defense, anything else took three rotations of lock and physical skills or more. I wouldn't mind trading Invisible arrow and FCS for more spam ability on my Inferno. The problem is you're trying to make every class balanced on 1v1. We all know sins, commies, serkers excel at 1v1 scenarios, Druid used to be able to play against serkers, but by no means were they the best against them it would go 50/50 depending on the skill. Commander is still far better because of their resists, and ability to not sacrifice anything else if GEARED properly. I've had discussions with both SooJi and LT in the past and they know how to handle a Druid. I used to duel commies all the time when I was purely physical, and they would usually win unless I managed to be slippery enough, after when I transitioned I wouldn't dare duel some of the commies I used to. I've dueled yemin, kazuya, and I can't remember the other serker from Korea for the life of me right now, but they were able to win against a Druid with equal gear. A druid would be nothing like commander because of the lack of AM, DG would have little to no offensive capability save for the utility of the stun.

On another note, let's take a class like WL. Before a druid used to be able to stomp a WL in a 1v1 situation (like most if not all melees can). Now it'd probably be a 50/50, assuming the silences don't miss from a WL. The ultimate counter against a physical Druid is a hush, so that is a huge blow to a class that NEEDS to cast skills to be a physical DPS.

Edited by Viole, 19 February 2013 - 07:21 PM.

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#17 Agamotto

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 07:39 PM

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#18 Sparda

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 07:43 PM

i understand what you are saying. But if you did get physical based damage how many of your stuns will remain? It would be a melee class like a commander with more stuns,Def,resists and the ability to heal lol. Whats the total amount of time you can stun someone for with all your stuns added together in a 1 vs 1 scenario?


please dont QQ Req staff make Commies more op than they are :)
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#19 DEADCATZ

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:48 PM

There are 4 S1 skills that were removed going to S2.



Contract with Vilovy was also nerfed into oblivion with dual-transformation "fix" S2.

-1k def and -50% resist is already a heavy toll for +2.5m/sec.

Please consider allowing Vilovy to dual transform again like S1.
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#20 Deevious

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:57 PM

So just remove the Defense buffs and give DG a 1.5 sec cast time and druids are good. Totally balanced class.
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#21 Viole

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:25 PM

So just remove the Defense buffs and give DG a 1.5 sec cast time and druids are good. Totally balanced class.


Get out of this topic. The point is to balance without breaking the class.

Edited by Viole, 19 February 2013 - 11:31 PM.

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#22 Sparda

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:12 AM

Transformations DG inferno casting time 1.5 sec or 1 sec u are a caster need time to cast x.X nd this will remove constant stun DG inferno lol
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#23 Viole

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:20 AM

Transformations DG inferno casting time 1.5 sec or 1 sec u are a caster need time to cast x.X nd this will remove constant stun DG inferno lol


Still doesn't fix being able to spam BM skills and get 5-10 kills in the process. Not the way to fix it. Again, you're nerfing entirely. Everyone will just go Elem and you will be here in a few months complaining how Elem is OP.
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#24 Daniels1976

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:38 AM

If you actually was reading what was suggested was to put a lock on the BM skills so druid could not max them, which would mean a skill like IA would only be able to max out at level 4 along with mysterious storm, this I personally see as a Nerf but some other people don't see it as such, and druid is not the class that has resistance its why they get the defense buff as once transformed they become melee and not caster base as you can see they don't have many actual skills when transformed. Druids resistance comes from its gear. Suggesting there be caster time on the skills your actually trying to get people interested in so you can do away with the druid/ele would not be the best way to go about it. Also ROB was suggested to be move to ele tree i do believe or to be deleted.

Edited by Daniels1976, 20 February 2013 - 02:07 AM.

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#25 Sparda

Sparda

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:16 AM

like S1 skills ¬¬ all locked at lvl 5 and depending on ur 2nd job they unlock some skills
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