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Where is all the Monk talk?


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#51 JustGabe

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 02:59 PM

I just gave it a read and I'm still skeptical about the effectiveness of a critical monk. I would like to see a comparation in numbers to see if the HUGE sacrifice in STR and INT is worth the investing in AGI to make up the damage via criticals, and from that Roronoa said, a critical monk just doesn't do as much damage as a STR/INT based Monk so, I'm far from convinced...I feel that a crit Monk is far fetched like trying to make a Sin into a Tanker when it has a natural tendency towards DPS.

Edited by JustGabe, 30 April 2013 - 03:30 PM.

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#52 JustGabe

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 10:38 PM

So I just made a quick analysis of how a Monk would get benefited from AGI and so far I got this:
According to the distribution of stats, there are two types, the pure Agi monk or the pure Str/Int one:
19/50/19 and 41/0/41


If you choose the 1st distribution you would end up with:
ATK PWR (19+19)*2 = 76
CRITICAL (50)*0.0916 = 4.58%
DODGE (50)*0.0458 = 2.29%
PARRY (19+19)*0.0458 = 1.74%

With the second one the distribution would be like this:
ATK PWR (41+41)*2 = 164
CRITICAL (0)*0.0916 = 0.0%
DODGE (0)*0.0458 = 0.0%
PARRY (41+41)*0.0458 = 3.75%

Now if you compare the damage you do, you don't need to be a math genius to see that the 2nd option is way better.
Let's say you do 100 Quadruple palm which does 25% damage of ATK PWR with a constant ratio, it would be like this:
76*0.25*(100+4.58) = avg of 1987 dmg
While the 2 build would get
164*0.25*(100) = avg of 4100 dmg

Moreover, if you compare the damage you receive, supposing you get 100 attacks with a constant damage of 100 HP each, then it would break down like this:
100*100-(100*2.29)-(100/2*1.74) = avg of 9684 dmg
While in the 2nd build:
100*100-(100*0)-(100/2*3.75) = avg of 9812.5 dmg

So, at least in my personal conclusion, the boost you get with critical doesn't make up for the sacrifice you make by taking the points from STR and INT, and the damage reduction is so ridiculously low (barely a reduction of 2% of total damage received) that it's barely noticable and definitely not worth it, since you spend 50 points in a single status, while the distribution of STR and INT gives you 82 points for a good parry rate giving you almost the same results.

What would happen if for example we were to add 10 AGI instead of 10 STR to the 2nd build?
(With an intial damage done of 4100 and an inital damage received of 9812.5)

Adding 10 STR: +20 ATK PWR and + 0.458% PARRY
(164+20)*0.25*(100) = 4600 dmg done
100*100-(100*0)-(100/2*(3.75+0.458)) = 9789.6 dmg received

Adding 10 AGI: +0.916% CRIT and +0.458% DODGE
164*0.25*(100+0.916) = 4137.56 dmg done
100*100-(100*0.458)-(100/2*3.75) = 9766.7 dmg received

As you can see, if you add STR you get a boost of 12.19% of damage done and a reduction of -0.23% of damage received.
But with AGI you only get a measly boost of 0.92% of damage done and a reduction of -0.46% of damage received.

Now, I'm aware this isn't a complete analysis, that this is a very rough example, and there are still many factors we should consider like the total boost you get from the different combination of cards, titles and runes (since equipment doesn't give you any AGI), but at least from a 1st impression, a Critical Monk is just a terrible option compared to a full STR/INT build. I find it as far-fetched as trying to make a Sin or Rouge into a Tanker, when their natural tendency is towards DPS, but again, this isn't a conclusive analysis since I'm not taking into account many others factors.
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#53 synesthetic

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:13 PM

Good effort. But a problem occurs starting from here:

Now if you compare the damage you do, you don't need to be a math genius to see that the 2nd option is way better.
Let's say you do 100 Quadruple palm which does 25% damage of ATK PWR with a constant ratio, it would be like this:
76*0.25*(100+4.58) = avg of 1987 dmg
While the 2 build would get
164*0.25*(100) = avg of 4100 dmg


This example is true. But the situation changes once you start talking about higher atk and crit values.

For example, consider that you could have 2k+ atk by endgame. Let's add 2000 to each of the two builds there.
2076*0.25*(100+4.58) = avg of 54277 dmg
2164*0.25*(100) = avg of 54100 dmg

Suddenly the AGI build wins.


The breakpoint between whether STR+INT or AGI wins changes depending on the total atk and crit rate. Quoting myself to make it easier on me:

There's a breakeven point varying with how much crit rate and attack you have.
If you have less attack than that point, then STR/INT will do more.
If you have more attack than that point, then AGI will do more.
The breakeven point if you have 0% crit rate is about 2184 attack.
Then for roughly every 5% crit rate, the breakeven point for attack increases by about 109.
By 30% crit rate, the breakeven point is 2839 attack.



I think the bigger question for you guys is what cards and runes are most worth getting, rather than just which stat builds.

I wanted to help out earlier towards that end, but I don't know how much atk and crit monks get off of plain gear by endgame, and I don't feel like looking up gear to figure that out.

Keep at it. You're on the right track.
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#54 ExeltusPendragon

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 01:16 AM

That's where it gets tricky, as Monk gear doesn't have Agi naturally on it. Also, when I mentioned the build before I forgot to mention that in theory Agi builds make for great tanking at higher levels of Agility due to the effective HP increase via Dodge. While Parry is great you still take half damage from it. Of course the ideal would be a mix, since in current game it'd be real money expensive to set up a decent Agi monk.
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#55 SOS101

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 05:52 AM

Ill go with the 36/36/25 build with this skill build http://www.ro2base.c...310617.22310543
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#56 JustGabe

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 06:26 AM

Keep at it. You're on the right track.

Thanks, I'll do a more complete analysis because it was very theorical one rather than an analysis based more on a real character with equipment. And your point is really interesting, at which level of STR/INT is it better to spend points in AGI rather than the two main statuses to get the best of it? I wasn't that aware that at some point, 1 point of STR is almost nothing, while 1 point of AGI starts to add more to the average damage, that's some great insight there.

Edited by JustGabe, 01 May 2013 - 06:31 AM.

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#57 JustGabe

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 09:57 AM

Well, I just did some more research this time with equipment, titles, status builds and cards. I'm too lazy to explain it all, but from my findings I could tell that apparently one build isn't better than the other; basically an AGI based Monk is more suited for tanking due to the huge damage reduction given by Dodge, however it seems that the critical rate doesn't compensate the potential damage taken from STR and INT, so a STR & INT based Monk is suited for a pure DPS because of the huge damage it does compared to an AGI-monk.
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#58 zdhayman

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:40 AM

JustGabe, I wanted to thank you for all of your input. You've provided a lot of information for anyone considering playing a Monk. I wouldn't be surprised to see "THE OFFICIAL MONK GUIDE" by JustGabe in a few days.
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#59 Ilyuusha

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:55 AM

JustGabe doin gods work! Keep it up son!
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#60 JustGabe

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 12:34 PM

JustGabe, I wanted to thank you for all of your input. You've provided a lot of information for anyone considering playing a Monk. I wouldn't be surprised to see "THE OFFICIAL MONK GUIDE" by JustGabe in a few days.

That wouldn't be a bad idea! :D we really need some guide that could enlighten us about the PRO's and CON's of the different Monk builds. I'm still tweaking in an excel file all the variables, but the explanation will be a pain in the baht, I barely know what I'm doing :P
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#61 zdhayman

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 10:45 PM

Really excited about playing my Monk. Sadly I wasn't able to hit level 25 tonight. A buddy and I agreed to level up together and he got hit with the hackshield error pretty early in the night. Hopefully they'll have that all fixed up by tomorrow night when we play again. Level 25 here I come. Hope all of you Monks out there are having fun. Best wishes!
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#62 AkiraTouma

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 12:43 PM

I was wondering if there's such a thing as a Monk that can Tank and Solo PvE. I have no interest in PvP, and I would love to focus on helping others with their quests.

If there was already an answer to this, please let me know.

P.S. I hate that Monks can't use the Acolyte Skills. :p_sad:
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#63 Alastorsz

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 02:19 PM

I was wondering if there's such a thing as a Monk that can Tank and Solo PvE. I have no interest in PvP, and I would love to focus on helping others with their quests.

If there was already an answer to this, please let me know.

P.S. I hate that Monks can't use the Acolyte Skills. :p_sad:

Apparently the Crit Monks can solo, there's a youtube video where a Monk is soloing Merem, which is far from being an easy Khara Boss.
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#64 AkiraTouma

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 02:46 PM

Apparently the Crit Monks can solo, there's a youtube video where a Monk is soloing Merem, which is far from being an easy Khara Boss.

I watched it as soon as I saw this post. Unfortunately, it doesn't tell me what Stats or Skills I need to put for my Monk.

Plus I have no idea how the cards work in this game. Do they permanently stay there, or is there a way to take them out without spending real cash? :p_swt:

EDiT: I'm also pretty casual when it comes to playing games, I don't read a lot about calculations and that kind of stuff.

Just let me know that it's good for what I want to do (Tanking and Soloing) , And I'll be good to go. :p_smile:

Edited by AkiraTouma, 02 May 2013 - 02:54 PM.

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#65 JustGabe

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:21 PM

I watched it as soon as I saw this post. Unfortunately, it doesn't tell me what Stats or Skills I need to put for my Monk.

Plus I have no idea how the cards work in this game. Do they permanently stay there, or is there a way to take them out without spending real cash? :p_swt:

EDiT: I'm also pretty casual when it comes to playing games, I don't read a lot about calculations and that kind of stuff.

Just let me know that it's good for what I want to do (Tanking and Soloing) , And I'll be good to go. :p_smile:

Well, unfortunately you'll have to reasearch and inform youself A LOT before doing a Monk that can Tank and solo PVE and not mess it up.

About the cards, they are permanent, and if you try to put a new one on an occupied slot, it will be destroyed by the new one.
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#66 AkiraTouma

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 09:15 AM

Well, unfortunately you'll have to reasearch and inform youself A LOT before doing a Monk that can Tank and solo PVE and not mess it up.

About the cards, they are permanent, and if you try to put a new one on an occupied slot, it will be destroyed by the new one.


*sigh* There's never an easy answer, I guess. Thanks for your help.
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#67 zdhayman

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 09:26 PM

So I'm pretty close to 25 and finally being a Monk. What can I expect as far as getting full Monk gear? I don't really want to run around in Acolyte clothes which lacks Strength. Any advice for getting a nice starter set of Monk gear?
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#68 zdhayman

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 12:09 AM

Might have answered my own question. I found the Cat Merchant in Izlude that sells pretty nice Level 25 gear for Izlude Hill Statues. You can get a full set plus the knuckles. Are these Statues hard to come by?
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#69 RevLoveJoy

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 12:41 AM

^You`ll get them as rewards for finishing Dungeon quests starting from Izrude Cave.
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#70 zdhayman

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 01:06 AM

^You`ll get them as rewards for finishing Dungeon quests starting from Izrude Cave.


Alright sounds good, thanks ^_^
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#71 hongaun

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 02:33 AM

Like Gabe said, the agi would be more beneficial to monks for dodge rather than crit. When you reach end game, sometimes dodge can save you from those boss i hit KO (especially maya purple).

Don't worry too much about monk's dps...monk's dps can't vary that much even with steel body on.

for new monks at lvl 25-30...be prepared for the shock of your life....you swear you drank so many potions before in your life :P
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#72 JustGabe

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 06:44 AM

for new monks at lvl 25-30...be prepared for the shock of your life....you swear you drank so many potions before in your life :P

Oh God, and those annoying mushrooms who can evade a freaking Asura! I spent a whole Salad after killing 1 or 2 of those motherf!
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#73 zdhayman

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 07:56 AM

for new monks at lvl 25-30...be prepared for the shock of your life....you swear you drank so many potions before in your life :P


Yeah I assumed those levels would really suck. But I'm ready to push through it. :D
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#74 SOS101

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 02:32 PM

http://www.ro2base.c...310617.22310543

This one is going to be mine. :I

Monk is sexy as-_-.
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#75 zdhayman

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 03:32 PM

Wow, this thread got a sticky. I feel like we should summarize what we've covered, in the original post. :D

EDIT: Summary complete. Feel free to make suggestions. i.e. Errors or anything that was left out.

Edited by zdhayman, 04 May 2013 - 04:46 PM.

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