168 replies to this topic

[SonicTMP]

Ah. Well the dot stacking needs testing. Though it might be nothing more than me seeing different specs having more or less AP + crit + lvl on their headcrush. Its not something to worry over, its weak skill overall.

[Reppu]

Then, I suppose the 3 Points would be beneficial in Aura Heal (Bleck), Aura Shield (Never hurts to have a panic button), or Shield Charge (It hits pretty hard!).

[SonicTMP]

yeah, nothing stands out in the end. So pick what you like for those last points. All the needed stuff is covered.

[Chocs]

In a way, when you compare Head Crush to a skill with CD, it's very similar to one of those burst damage attacks like Shield Cannon. 7% damage each tick at level 1 every two seconds, total duration reset after each Aura Strike.

In 30 seconds, that's equal to a skill with 105% damage and 30s CD (7% damage multiplied by 15 ticks). At level 5 and 10% each tick, that equates to a Shield Cannon worth 150% attack power. Combining Head Crush and Shield Cannon, you can maximise your single target damage ...


But as Colosseum is coming, maybe less CD on Shield Charge will help? I've never tried Colosseum before.

[Reppu]

Head Crush is perfectly good... if there's no other Knight (unlikely) or Warrior (likely) in the team/raid.

[Jargous]

In a way, when you compare Head Crush to a skill with CD, it's very similar to one of those burst damage attacks like Shield Cannon. 7% damage each tick at level 1 every two seconds, total duration reset after each Aura Strike.

In 30 seconds, that's equal to a skill with 105% damage and 30s CD (7% damage multiplied by 15 ticks). At level 5 and 10% each tick, that equates to a Shield Cannon worth 150% attack power. Combining Head Crush and Shield Cannon, you can maximise your single target damage ...


But as Colosseum is coming, maybe less CD on Shield Charge will help? I've never tried Colosseum before.

Shield Charge at 5 is needed to set the tone on a lot of players that you won't take any BS.

[SonicTMP]

Blargh, gotta pvp just enough to get the accessorys. After that don't care.

[rollchan]

This is interesting, I always thought that warriors have higher ATP due to their great swords

[Reppu]

More interesting?

Knight Effective Attack with Concentration always active: 1859 > 2230.8

Warrior Effective Attack with Berserk at default cooldown (Effectively providing 10% Bonus attack at all times): 2029 > 2231.9

Of course Warrior value increases with more vigor, but that's semantics. But, with more vigor, Warrior slowly gains more attack... but... they don't have the utility or survivability of a Knight. And of course the moment they toggle Defender for survivability, Done and Done.

And with more vigor comes more ATK, which Knight benefits from more and more.

To put it into perspective? Knight has the same DPS and potentially superior, with more survivability and more Utility, AND this explodes further if they proc Aura Mastery sufficiently. Which they will.

Still, I -really- would like similar numbers for Rogue, Assassin, and Ranger. If anyone can provide them, that would be most excellent. For the record, Monk and Beastmaster would be nice, too.

Let's honestly see if Knights bring just enough DPS to warrant a slot over a Pure DPSer with their added utility and survivability, and how the other two tanks fair. Because I'm getting real itchy to try a DPS Knight.

[SolidJelly]

In a way, when you compare Head Crush to a skill with CD, it's very similar to one of those burst damage attacks like Shield Cannon. 7% damage each tick at level 1 every two seconds, total duration reset after each Aura Strike.

In 30 seconds, that's equal to a skill with 105% damage and 30s CD (7% damage multiplied by 15 ticks). At level 5 and 10% each tick, that equates to a Shield Cannon worth 150% attack power. Combining Head Crush and Shield Cannon, you can maximise your single target damage ...


But as Colosseum is coming, maybe less CD on Shield Charge will help? I've never tried Colosseum before.

Colosseum is a nightmare for melee classes, with the exception of Assassins (they have shadow form). They usually get kited to death by ranged classes (Rangers, Sorcs, DPS Priests specifically - these guys dominate colosseums). Rogues also have it better since they can restealth during battle, but they still lack skills to catch up to ranged classes and thus can still be kited. Unfortunately Warriors and Knights are no exception, Warriors have leap but they still get kited hard.

[Reppu]

I'm starting to really wonder about Shield Cannon as it is right now. Due to it's abyssal animation and all, you could, if the frames are correct (I'm not the best at this), manage an Aura Strike and most of a Bash in the time Shield Cannon triggers.

I do know Shield Cannon is a DPS gain over a period of time, but is it worth the investment for a small gain (if I'm right here), where you could add those points into further versatility and utility? If we're going purely to maximize DPS, maybe... but this is one of those odd calls.

Does someone else have numbers of how beneficial Shield Cannon truly is, considering the cooldown and it's hefty animation? With how I view it, it's almost tempting to simply take Aura Armor with a small DPS loss, for the ability to Tank and DPS very effectively. This, again, is if I'm right about the total animation time of Shield Cannon.

Spike damage is nice, but it really seems like Knights are Consistency over Burst.

[Chocs]

Regarding Shield Cannon viability... One of the hardcore kRO2 players told my Knight friend to drop Cannon and that spamming Bash/Aura Strike is "faster". Since that guy lived in Korea he would probably have almost zero latency and can pull it off easier, so I guess it depends on your connection to the server.

Personally, I am planning to build a dual role Knight without Cannon this way: http://www.ro2skills...dCrFqBrBaddBbf1


Oh... and that's a pity regarding melee in Colosseum. Kinda expected it with how the game is set up, BUT I CAN STILL TRY---

Edited by Chocs, 10 May 2013 - 11:25 PM.

[Wandrin]

My post from another topic reppu:


You can only consider the Damage increase comparing shield cannon to aura strike so 88% vs 45% and you also have to consider that shield cannon takes ~1.75 seconds(this is when the last hit of damage lasts even not when you are able to use your next bash) to complete the animation meaning you can use aura strike and bash and be ~.25 seconds from using your next bash(meaning it is probably less than .25 seconds to the next bash).


So you have 88% vs 45%+25% in 1.75seconds vs 2 seconds meaning DPS of 50.28%/sec vs 35%/sec. This is where the fight duration come into play you have a dps increase of 15.28% over 2 seconds which is an increase of .5093% over the duration of the CD. Head crush goes from 7% to 10% over 2 seconds meaning an increase in dps of 1.5% or just under 1%dps over shield cannon for a 2 point reduction(4 points to max head crush compared to 6 for max shield cannon since you don't need boomerang mastery)

Conclusion: Shield cannon is a DPS loss in fights over 10 seconds and is purely a burst DPS skill.

Edited by Wandrin, 10 May 2013 - 11:29 PM.

[SolidJelly]

Regarding Shield Cannon viability... One of the hardcore kRO2 players told my Knight friend to drop Cannon and that spamming Bash/Aura Strike is "faster". Since that guy lived in Korea he would probably have almost zero latency and can pull it off easier, so I guess it depends on your connection to the server.

Personally, I am planning to build a dual role Knight without Cannon this way: http://www.ro2skills...dCrFqBrBaddBbf1


Oh... and that's a pity regarding melee in Colosseum. Kinda expected it with how the game is set up, BUT I CAN STILL TRY---

To be fair, a lot of people ignore knights because of their toughness and just focus on glass cannon targets like Sorcs or Rangers. If Knights get lucky and don't get targeted, plus they kill steal enough in arenas they can still pull off champ, it's been done before. Just pop Aura Shield / Shield Fortress if you get focused and they'll give up DPSing you and switch targets to save time and rack up kills. Unless they hate your guts for some reason and want you dead...

[SonicTMP]

Missing variables. Shield cannon can crit, 3 hits. How often and how many of those 3 hits does it need to crit to pull ahead of Aura strike? What is the crit ratio for AS needed to match or exceed that via a spam focus. Also the DoT tick from head crush does not crit.

I beleive we don't get animation boosts from haste. It also doesn't effect the speed of the DoT ticks. On the other hand vigor can shorten the CD on Cannon to be used more often.

Are you going for a pure str/crit build? Are you trying the theory crafted int/agi battle manual build? AP doesn't mean as much when you crit for over twice what anyone else can.

It's not that simple. There's alot you need to take into account.

With how I view it, it's almost tempting to simply take Aura Armor with a small DPS loss, for the ability to Tank and DPS very effectively. This, again, is if I'm right about the total animation time of Shield Cannon.

I've said this before. Your role is going to be determined by your gear. You can not mix and match evade/dodge with hit/haste/vigor. You give up far too much to do both at the same time.

Figure that if you want to do both, you need 2 full sets of gears, including accessorys. We already have to get an extra weapon token for the shield. You want to double that up? Also figure in runes for both sets. You'd need a balanced setup for cards as well since you can't switch those around as you please. The more you try to do both roles the less effective you will be.

In a raid you'll get hand-me downs for your lesser used role. Not to mention if you want the set peices from tokens? You'll be waiting for everyone we share the tokens with to get their first set before you work on your second.

As negative as i'm portraying this. My views are based on a raid enviroment. For 5mans RHD you can get away with both roles. But past that you need to focus or have the time investment and loot RNG luck.

Edited by SonicTMP, 11 May 2013 - 12:31 AM.

[rollchan]

I'm starting to really wonder about Shield Cannon as it is right now. Due to it's abyssal animation and all, you could, if the frames are correct (I'm not the best at this), manage an Aura Strike and most of a Bash in the time Shield Cannon triggers.

I do know Shield Cannon is a DPS gain over a period of time, but is it worth the investment for a small gain (if I'm right here), where you could add those points into further versatility and utility? If we're going purely to maximize DPS, maybe... but this is one of those odd calls.

Does someone else have numbers of how beneficial Shield Cannon truly is, considering the cooldown and it's hefty animation? With how I view it, it's almost tempting to simply take Aura Armor with a small DPS loss, for the ability to Tank and DPS very effectively. This, again, is if I'm right about the total animation time of Shield Cannon.

Spike damage is nice, but it really seems like Knights are Consistency over Burst.

Regarding Shield Cannon viability... One of the hardcore kRO2 players told my Knight friend to drop Cannon and that spamming Bash/Aura Strike is "faster". Since that guy lived in Korea he would probably have almost zero latency and can pull it off easier, so I guess it depends on your connection to the server.

Personally, I am planning to build a dual role Knight without Cannon this way: http://www.ro2skills...dCrFqBrBaddBbf1


Oh... and that's a pity regarding melee in Colosseum. Kinda expected it with how the game is set up, BUT I CAN STILL TRY---

From my experience that if it crits even just once then it'll surpass aura strike's damage.

[Reppu]

TMP: Well of course you'd need to 'focus' in raid scenarios, but it's not an unrealistic scenario to form two gear sets. It's a 'viable' goal, but not a 'likely' goal in the IMMEDIATE future. Still, it's one of those things you can consider.

rollchan: Well, yes it's -damage- surpasses Aura Strike, but it's a matter of DPS. Unless you're implying Critical Hits are what make the difference. But, Knights aren't really set for Critical builds, are they? At least their end-game gear.

Wandrin: That is interesting math, although relying on Head Crush is bad form since, as people have noted, Tanks should have priority on that (of course if your tank is a Monk or Beastmaster, it's a moot point). What about the critical hit claims from roll? How does that factor into it all?

[Chocs]

DoT ticks might not crit, but they don't miss or get parried either...

...I'm supposed to be doing my assignment right now.

Edited by Chocs, 11 May 2013 - 04:26 AM.

[SolidJelly]

Regarding Shield Cannon viability... One of the hardcore kRO2 players told my Knight friend to drop Cannon and that spamming Bash/Aura Strike is "faster". Since that guy lived in Korea he would probably have almost zero latency and can pull it off easier, so I guess it depends on your connection to the server.

Personally, I am planning to build a dual role Knight without Cannon this way: http://www.ro2skills...dCrFqBrBaddBbf1


Oh... and that's a pity regarding melee in Colosseum. Kinda expected it with how the game is set up, BUT I CAN STILL TRY---

Your Korean friend is right - Shield Cannon is not worth those points. But that's just my opinion as well.

[Wandrin]

Wandrin: That is interesting math, although relying on Head Crush is bad form since, as people have noted, Tanks should have priority on that (of course if your tank is a Monk or Beastmaster, it's a moot point). What about the critical hit claims from roll? How does that factor into it all?

I tank with 5/5 head crush so that isn't a big deal.

[Tamashiimizu]

Shield Cannon is splited in 3 hits. In lvl 5, total damage is 88%, so each one of these hits would deal 29,3% damage. Just add this to the 88% and you will have your total damage (117,3%).
But a critical hit is very random because Knights don't have a huge crit rate, so the more times the skills are used in examples and calculations, the more accurate the real damage dealt will be. Taking this into note, S.Cannon lands 3 hits, Aura Strike only one, and Bash only one too. So even if you compare S.Cannon to A.Strike + Bash, I think S.Cannon have more consistent damage, and the other 2 skill combo more burst damage.
Of course, this in a totally isolated situation, not considering the DoT from Head Crush, Mastery, and the battle's time.

Personally, I am planning to build a dual role Knight without Cannon this way: http://www.ro2skills...dCrFqBrBaddBbf1

Wow! I was planning in a almost identical build! But in my build, I will leave A.Mastery lvl 2 and A.Shield lvl 5, since i'll focus on Tank equip

[SonicTMP]

Reppu: Viable yes? But I can tell you from experiance that obtaining 2 full sets is a major pain in the ass.

The way i see it DPS knights are a rarity and I'm starting to run into more closed minded people 40-50 . Convincing others the iconic tank can also dps just as well is a challenge at times. And if you have the tank aura, every one is going to expect you to tank. I'd rather not put myself into that trap. It does cause problems but finding a good raid guild fixes that.

[rollchan]

rollchan: Well, yes it's -damage- surpasses Aura Strike, but it's a matter of DPS. Unless you're implying Critical Hits are what make the difference. But, Knights aren't really set for Critical builds, are they? At least their end-game gear.

I meant that if it crits at least once then it'll provide better DPS than aura strike, moreso if you have battle tactics. With end-game gears 30% crit is not very hard to achieve for swordsman classes.

[Chocs]

I meant that if it crits at least once then it'll provide better DPS than aura strike, moreso if you have battle tactics. With end-game gears 30% crit is not very hard to achieve for swordsman classes.

But what happens if Aura Strike/Bash crits once too? I think we're talking about varying potential burst damage when comparing crits. After all, both methods share the same crit rate, so technically the end result will be proportional to the original values.

[SonicTMP]

Re-reading part of this.... I really get this feeling some of you don't understand how a dps rotation works.

Are we really aguing over which single skill is the best dps?

Edited by SonicTMP, 11 May 2013 - 07:49 PM.