85 replies to this topic

[Oda]

That's the issue honestly. If it were something like an item that we could give to people who have reported bots in the past and they could "cast" a status effect on the character that would be detected only by the GM Team for follow up that might work, since making it available to everyone would risk the system being flooded with false reports by botters and trollers.

[Ralis]

If that's possible it would work. Just give it to five anonymous people or so, since I'm sure if people know they have that power they'll be harassed nonstop by people wanting to report bots...

[100002358896362]

yeah give power to people you guys can trust, i love "flag as bot" thing,
like moderators here.

[kbb93]

That's the issue honestly. If it were something like an item that we could give to people who have reported bots in the past and they could "cast" a status effect on the character that would be detected only by the GM Team for follow up that might work, since making it available to everyone would risk the system being flooded with false reports by botters and trollers.

This is a great idea. A way to approach who gets this item could be based on merit and only a certain number of them given out. What I mean is their are only (for example) 50 of them on the server at any one time, and that item can be given to you based on accurate botting reports you've submitted as well as be taken away from you based on someone more deserving than you (your lack of reporting/inaccuracy/ect.)

[Facekiller]

ill take one of those items.... ive never sent a false report.... in fact ive helped close several botting rings

[kerrylee]

There are issues with having bots or non employees of gravity conducting bot tests and suspending accounts, an oversight and legal issue

Are you saying it would be like someone slips on wet floor in a McDonald's and sue the company? That person might be successful in court because they are legitimate customer. However in this case, the "victim" isn't an innocent customer, they have knowingly violated iRO's the terms of use.

Moreover, noone would bring you to court just because of a game, even if the account is loaded with god items.

Just trying to understand the extent of this precaution.

And wouldn't selecting merit-based bot taggers be similar to volunteer (non employees of Gravity) bot hunters, so there should be a legal issue as well?

Edited by kerrylee, 03 June 2013 - 01:39 AM.

[kbb93]

Are you saying it would be like someone slips on wet floor in a McDonald's and sue the company? That person might be successful in court because they are legitimate customer. However in this case, the "victim" isn't an innocent customer, they have knowingly violated iRO's the terms of use.

Moreover, noone would bring you to court just because of a game, even if the account is loaded with god items.

Just trying to understand the extent of this precaution.

And wouldn't selecting merit-based bot taggers be similar to volunteer (non employees of Gravity) bot hunters, so there should be a legal issue as well?

What she is saying as far as the auto-ban GM bot goes is that it would take a tremendous amount of code and, even with a very well scripted bot, it would still make mistakes. The bot would need some to literally sit at the computer with it (oversight) to ensure no mistakes are made, and if a mistake is made they can in fact be brought to court for breaking their own terms and agreements.

And for the bot-tagging idea, these people would simple be tagging the bots, meaning reporting them. This would then give the GM's a direct ticket to look at and make a final decision themselves.

[FScholar03]

Well, I saw too many bots, day to day go to Dungeons and Fields like Elder Willows, using default hairstyle and hair color (Red and yellow); and is very annoying that attack the enemy and illegally use Greed, being Swordsman or Rogues. Also, they teleport (like cowards) when there's a stronger enemy. (This thing is not much problematic, but the first "yes")

[HeIIraiser]

Are you saying it would be like someone slips on wet floor in a McDonald's and sue the company? That person might be successful in court because they are legitimate customer. However in this case, the "victim" isn't an innocent customer, they have knowingly violated iRO's the terms of use.

Moreover, noone would bring you to court just because of a game, even if the account is loaded with god items.

Just trying to understand the extent of this precaution.

And wouldn't selecting merit-based bot taggers be similar to volunteer (non employees of Gravity) bot hunters, so there should be a legal issue as well?

I like your statement very much the one I highlighted...

So... That makes me think about the whole population who is incarcerated in jail/prison because they are deemed as "criminals" in the society and they have "broken the law."

I am not here to dispute or debate with you on this issue, but my opinions with this view is... The court system is a game... Many innocent people have been incarcerated because of false accusations. I am well aware that the majority of the people incarcerated are not saints either, some must have done "bad" things, while others haven't; but that is not enough to justify a cause like this.

There have been a few cases in court about this internet "piracy illegal downloading" crap, I am sure there has... Let a lone for a game? I believe you can be taken to court for a stupid game, and at the end, everyone comes out laughing at the system.

[Segaia]

I still want to keep the conversation going about solutions to this topic. Altough a bit technical I may or may not have found a decent and manageable way for administrators to suppress and identify bots.


My Suggestion:
A good technical solution that all third-party-tools hate is screwing with the client-server-communication. You have to know that client-server communication is pretty sensitive and that's why in other mmos whenever there is a big patch some add-ons, plugins and of course bots need to be adjusted by their respective developers as well.

Let me explain the common problem: when a client sends a message to a server like "I wanna hit this monster now!" this message does not only need the right data but as well the right AMOUNT and ORDER of parameters for the server to be able to even understand it. Botclients figured out what to tell the server in order to attack a monster and that's the reason they can do it in the first place. So what can we do against it? You screw with the order and amount of parameters needed for something very common (in our example an "attack") - you cloak them and make them dynamic, hence unreliable and unpredictable for third-party-tools:



The key here ist that the structure of "data[]" can be changed by an administrator at any time resulting in the botclients malfunctioning in an instant. The administrator decides the order of parameters and/or dummies for a certain message - may it be "Login", "Attack" or the "Heal"-skill and supressing and identifying botclients in the process.

Here is a short example:
Monday: "data[]" for attacking changed to { "monsterID", "position_me", "position_target" }
Wednesday: "data[]" for attacking changed to { "monsterID", "dummy-string"*, "position_target", "dummy-string"*, "position_me"}
Friday: "data[]" for attacking changed to { "position_me", "position_target", "monsterID" }
Sunday: "data[]" for logging in changed to { "password", "username", "dummy"}

*A "dummy-string" is a unique set of characters that needs to be sent in order for the server to process the request. This keeps the communication unique.


Easy for admins to manage
All these changes can be made in no time and screw with the botclients. An administrator will need 1 minute to change it but a bot-developer will need hours to packet-sniff the new data structure, adjust the code and deploy a new download. Since the communication-structure is defined within simple tables there will be NO NEED FOR CODE-CHANGE-REQUEST after this system's implementation.

Administrators should now have a weapon that botclients need to adjust to EVERY TIME. This puts you one step above bot-developers because they are the ones that need to catch up now. Giving that an admin can use this system every 5 minutes if he wants to the bot-developers will soon get tired. Packet-sniffing the new structure of "data[]", adjusting the code, redistributing the new botclient... you can be sure this will piss them off.


Advantages:
- Only need to grab one core function that involves monsters like "attacking" and make it dynamic like above
- You can identify bots with 99% accuracy. The normal game-client will always get it right - the botclient does not.
- You can set accounts on a high-priority-banlist that failed to deliver the right data and investigate them more effectively.
- The system is very user-friendly. The time an admin needs to invest is spent efficiently.
- Code-requests and money needed to invest are being kept to a minimum

Disadvantages:
- Data processing might be slightly hightened.
- People need to update their clients through the launcher (which they always should anyway)
- A change in the "parameter-table" would require a server-restart to apply it


Closing
With this system you dont craft yourself a holy grail but you give administrators a tool that enables them to suppress and identify bots more efficiently. Let's face it: there won't be more staff to handle this problem. We need a dynamic system in the tools of administrators that gives them a weapon that can strike bots and bot-programs at their core.

Botclients that farm but later have been caught still damage the economy. Botclients that are malfunctioning from the very beginning do not. So last but not least: Any Suggestions? Critique? Ideas? I will continue to post ideas here, anything that my mind can come up to help making this game the experience it deserves: without bots.



~Segaia

Edited by Segaia, 30 June 2013 - 08:56 AM.

[kbb93]

^

Praise:

Very intelligent and comprehensive idea Segaia, love the work you put into describing this and I believe this system would work if Gravity issued the time to work on it (...i'm even sure if requested volunteer coders, people would be more than happy to invest their time in order to create better gameplay). The parameter orders could be changed every maintenance as to negate having to restart the server during normal playing hours.

 

Critique:

I'm not a professional coder, just a thinker, so correct me if i'm wrong: Although I agree with this system's ability to deter most of the bots; I think once you get a veteran coder they could crack this system within a day. They would just run test feeds to the server and once they receive a correct response, save the setting as semi-permanent until the order is changed again, rinse and repeat.