201 replies to this topic

[xxalucard]

So with these calculations what do you think about pyromaniac? Would we better off saving our skill points than investing 5 into it?

[Xafir]

Yes I think it would be better to put those points into one of our skills that helps keep us alive and/or Meteor storm.

[awayish]

i'd put points into pyromaniac purely because later raids can be big dps checks and you need as much damage as you can get.

[Xafir]

i'd put points into pyromaniac purely because later raids can be big dps checks and you need as much damage as you can get.

So you think that it is better to have Pyromaniac maxed and have teleport at 1 with a 60 second cooldown? I would imagine if any fight required movement teleport would net you more damage than Pyromaniac.

[Nirrado]

B> Damage Meter that's accurate, leave offer!

[awayish]

So you think that it is better to have Pyromaniac maxed and have teleport at 1 with a 60 second cooldown? I would imagine if any fight required movement teleport would net you more damage than Pyromaniac.

put 1 point into fire explosion. 1 in meteor storm.

Edited by awayish, 06 June 2013 - 04:56 PM.

[Xafir]

put 1 point into fire explosion. 1 in meteor storm.

1 point in Fire Explosion is a waste as shown in my calculations. You will definately do more damage with maxed Fire Explosion and using it every time you are at max Pyro stacks. Hell at 1 point it is not even worth casting as it does less damage than 2 Fire Bolts.

[awayish]

it's for pvp sniping. instant damage cast with a stun.

[xxalucard]

it's for pvp sniping. instant damage cast with a stun.

I'll believe this when I see a video.



I'm gonna sit and wait to see what other wizards have to say about keeping pyromaniac at 1. If that's the case I may reset and leave pyro at one and put flame explosion at 5.

I'll wait first to see some other thoughts on the subject

Edited by xxalucard, 06 June 2013 - 05:47 PM.

[Nagittchi]

Using Flame explosion at PvP? lol good luck.

You'll get Noob Speared before you can get one off.

[Nirrado]

Actually, one of my champion runs I won with a (was testing random stuff) 5/5 Flame Explosion. #1 was a priest and he coloseo'd himself at 8sec with 3 others beating on him. Rank 5 flame explosion with Fire Seal Explosion does ALMOST 1100 per hit. I'm not currently spec'd that, but it can definitely be a LOL moment when the stars align like that lol.

[Drizzled]

Flame explosion is completely useless in PvE, and has been proven time and time again. Pyromania is a huge DPS chunk, not getting that is straight stupid.

[xxalucard]

Flame explosion is completely useless in PvE, and has been proven time and time again. Pyromania is a huge DPS chunk, not getting that is straight stupid.

Where has this been proven?

[iyoter]

Where has this been proven?

People who keep respec'ting their characters have proven it to themselves, for themselves. I got a Ranger and a Wiz in ro2sea, and Arrow Vulcan and Flame Explosion sux. All the proof I can give you now is a screen shot of my Wiz having a Wind Arms build with Cold Bolt and Lightning Bold combo. Did a two build for my Wiz and 4 builds for my Ranger.

[xxalucard]

No offense but that's not proof of anything, just a general statement and a possible screenshot.

Videos are where proof tends to be, and that's usually what I (and hopefully others) want to see in action.


I recall standing next to another wizard in an RHD run where we were both throwing fire bolts at the boss. I noticed that it looked like he was throwing his fire bolts exactly as fast as mine, despite me having wind emblem out (5/5) while he had his fire emblem out. This seems to all be due to the animation of spells like fire bolt and the fact that haste does not affect them (only the cast time). IF that's the case, I don't see why the lackluster 10% haste from pyromaniac (which is only 10% at 100 stacks) would make any difference.

Just curious-- why would you make a wizard build with wind emblem, cold bolt, and lighting bolt? That sounds like a sub-par DPS version of sorcerer, by not taking advantage of the wizard's fire tree.

Personally I did level up lightning bolt to 4/5, but I can't see why you'd level cold bolt also. IMO cold bolt would only be used as a Wiz for the slow down effect. If you want quick finisher damage you can use lightning bolt (cold bolt has a .50s cast time), and if you want to pack a punch you can use fire bolt (a 1.00s cast time), since fire bolt has a lot of synergy with other skills.

On paper it might look like you can do 2 cold bolts per fire bolt, but in reality (as we've been discovering throughout the thread) due to the animation time (not cast time) of the spell, it's highly doubtful you can.

[awayish]

flame explosion is instant damage, that makes it a better kser than basically any other skill you have. if you run around and don't die you can get it up and ready pretty much most of the time in colo and be ready for sniping that high ranked guy who's about to die. you can't do this with fire bolt and lightning bolt does too little damage to be that effective at this.

[iyoter]

No offense but that's not proof of anything, just a general statement and a possible screenshot.

Videos are where proof tends to be, and that's usually what I (and hopefully others) want to see in action.


I recall standing next to another wizard in an RHD run where we were both throwing fire bolts at the boss. I noticed that it looked like he was throwing his fire bolts exactly as fast as mine, despite me having wind emblem out (5/5) while he had his fire emblem out. This seems to all be due to the animation of spells like fire bolt and the fact that haste does not affect them (only the cast time). IF that's the case, I don't see why the lackluster 10% haste from pyromaniac (which is only 10% at 100 stacks) would make any difference.

Just curious-- why would you make a wizard build with wind emblem, cold bolt, and lighting bolt? That sounds like a sub-par DPS version of sorcerer, by not taking advantage of the wizard's fire tree.

Personally I did level up lightning bolt to 4/5, but I can't see why you'd level cold bolt also. IMO cold bolt would only be used as a Wiz for the slow down effect. If you want quick finisher damage you can use lightning bolt (cold bolt has a .50s cast time), and if you want to pack a punch you can use fire bolt (a 1.00s cast time), since fire bolt has a lot of synergy with other skills.

On paper it might look like you can do 2 cold bolts per fire bolt, but in reality (as we've been discovering throughout the thread) due to the animation time (not cast time) of the spell, it's highly doubtful you can.

I'm not saying Wind Seal build + Cold Bolt + Lightning is better. Like I said I was trying different builds in seaRO2 so when ro2 is available in our country I will know the right build for me. That build is a for fun build which kinda proves that "I was trying different builds". It just happens that that's the last build I had for my Wiz before I quit that server.

If you wont trust anyone, go try out Flame Explosion build and compare it to a 0 Flame Explo build with max Pyro.

Edited by iyoter, 07 June 2013 - 12:47 AM.

[xxalucard]

I decided to try a 5 flame explosion & 1 pyro build.

The 1/5 pyromaniac fire bolt speed feels very similar to the max pyro speed, which is really disappointing since I was hoping to see a significant slow down.

The main reason I ever did max pyromaniac the first time was because someone once told me "10% faster means 1 more fire bolt every 10 seconds." Now, thanks to Xafir, I can clearly see that statement isn't accurate-- due to animation time & global skill delay. Not to mention everyone tends to overlook that you need the same build up in pyromaniac (100 stacks)-- just like you would need for flame explosion-- to get the most out of it.

In all my skill resets since i've played as a wiz, I have to say that 1 pyromaniac vs 5 pyromaniac yields little to no difference in terms of speed & dps. I was always afraid that I was somehow a noob by NOT maxing pyromaniac, because several SEA players & max level wizards had told me that the skill is "more useful than it appears." I actually was a young noob back then, so I just mindlessly trusted them. But now I see even the glorious SEA players can be wrong about things.

The build I decided on is this --> http://ro2base.com/b...1.1.1/0.0.0.0.0

I did Ice Wall 4 because I realized that this still allows you to use Ice Wall once per round in Colo during the last 10 seconds. I remembered there's a 15 second countdown to add up the score, then the 1 minute break, and THEN you have the 3 minute round. Since 230 seconds = 3 minutes & 50 seconds, and the break time is 1 minute & 15 seconds, that means that even with 0 vigor you should be able to do it again near the end of the next round. (Subtract 1:15 [break time between rounds] from the 3:50 [ice wall CD] and you get 2:35. So that means in the last 25 seconds you will have the ice wall option available again in every round).

A SEA player also misinformed me when I first asked about this, saying there wasn't enough time, but...yea.

[iyoter]

Ice Wall in every round seems unnecessary. Once you are secured with your ranking, there's no need to Ice Wall.

In raids, it seems promising but still I doubt it coz survivality still depends on the party.

[Xafir]

I decided to try a 5 flame explosion & 1 pyro build.

The 1/5 pyromaniac fire bolt speed feels very similar to the max pyro speed, which is really disappointing since I was hoping to see a significant slow down.

The main reason I ever did max pyromaniac the first time was because someone once told me "10% faster means 1 more fire bolt every 10 seconds." Now, thanks to Xafir, I can clearly see that statement isn't accurate-- due to animation time & global skill delay. Not to mention everyone tends to overlook that you need the same build up in pyromaniac (100 stacks)-- just like you would need for flame explosion-- to get the most out of it.

In all my skill resets since i've played as a wiz, I have to say that 1 pyromaniac vs 5 pyromaniac yields little to no difference in terms of speed & dps. I was always afraid that I was somehow a noob by NOT maxing pyromaniac, because several SEA players & max level wizards had told me that the skill is "more useful than it appears." I actually was a young noob back then, so I just mindlessly trusted them. But now I see even the glorious SEA players can be wrong about things.

The build I decided on is this --> http://ro2base.com/b...1.1.1/0.0.0.0.0

I did Ice Wall 4 because I realized that this still allows you to use Ice Wall once per round in Colo during the last 10 seconds. I remembered there's a 15 second countdown to add up the score, then the 1 minute break, and THEN you have the 3 minute round. Since 230 seconds = 3 minutes & 50 seconds, and the break time is 1 minute & 15 seconds, that means that even with 0 vigor you should be able to do it again near the end of the next round. (Subtract 1:15 [break time between rounds] from the 3:50 [ice wall CD] and you get 2:35. So that means in the last 25 seconds you will have the ice wall option available again in every round).

A SEA player also misinformed me when I first asked about this, saying there wasn't enough time, but...yea.

Good for you xxalucard! I have to say all these supposedly pro SEA players throw their opinions around and provide 0 proof as to why what they say is actually better. At least I provided math to back up my claims and unless one of the nay sayers can provide something that sufficiently proves that either my math is wrong (possible but at this point since I have tested it in game unlikely), or show that a build with pyro who never used Fire Explosion does more damage than one that does the opposite I will just ignore them.

[Xafir]

Flame explosion is completely useless in PvE, and has been proven time and time again. Pyromania is a huge DPS chunk, not getting that is straight stupid.

I also want to know where this has been proven. I see a thread on the playpark forums disussing this very thing with a poll that Fire Explosion wins and the math for the only person who even tried to provide math for defending Pyromaniac is wrong as it makes 2 assumptions:

1. Pyro is a flat 10% haste. This is false it is MUCH less than 10% because in a 4min fight it is only at max stacks 5 times.

2. This 10% haste makes your Fire Bolts 10% faster. This is false all it does is make your cast bar on FIre bolt 10% faster there is still a 1.3 second delay on every Fire Bolt that will never go away.

http://forums.playpa...l-5-fire-explo/ This is the thread I am talking about for reference.

Edited by Xafir, 07 June 2013 - 02:49 AM.

[Kalandros]

Pyro is necessary in a haste build where you can reach instant cast during Guardian/Seal Explosion.
The only time I might consider dropping it is if I can possibly get another 10% from equipment, which is highly unlikely.

[Nirrado]

Update on videos, I worked enough overtime the last few weeks and will be procuring some Super Large bags(lol), and some skill scrolls. This weekend is when my group does the bulk of our RHDs so I'll be frapsing the last boss of Sandarman(since that's what I done my cold bolt/lightning bolt video on), and posting the results. Sorry it's taken so long but my job has been excrutiatingly busy the last few days and I just haven't had time to play much =(

Also if there is anything else you guys would like test videos of/etc please let me know, I'm a min maxer and don't have a problem sinking some money into my toon to find out what the best spec is lol.

[Fuumaki]

Seems like the debate now is Pyro v. non-Pyro. Like Kalandros said, Pyro is pretty much needed for Wind/Firebolt build. What about for high-end Fire/Firebolt build?

[Nagittchi]

Until they get rid of the redonkadonk animation for Fire Explosion, I'm just keeping it at 1 for a Pyromaniac finisher.

But it is a decent KSer, if you can survive long enough to have it proc. If your target's HP is about 1.3k, they're already dead.... if they all connect.

Edited by Nagittchi, 07 June 2013 - 01:47 PM.