174 replies to this topic

[Kalandros]

[16:29:16] <+> ok silver
[16:29:23] <+> i will bet you 5k zenny
[16:29:28] <+> that my rog will own you in dps
[16:29:40] <~> it will never be on par silver
[16:29:49] <~> you have to outgear the other dps
[16:29:52] <~> to do the same dps
[16:29:54] <~> as a knight

 

Guild Leader and guild Main Tank are really on my case.

[SonicTMP]

Without the colo acc you're going to be behind quite a bit. What's their gear level at?

[Kalandros]

well yea, I'm not saying right now that I should be on par, I'm not as geared as some of them but we're not decked out with all colo-geared DPS either, so I think I'm already ahead of some.

Gonna get all 5 colo accessories next. 30% crit, 202 INT right, now unbuffed. Some tasty 4k Aura Strikes.

 

But their complete refusal to even consider my DPS Knight is irritating at best.

Edited by Kalandros, 07 July 2013 - 12:04 PM.

[SonicTMP]

More int than I thought you have, but you're pretty close to the first major goal. You might want to take someone closely geared to you to arena and test on the scarecrows.

[Yoruno]

You have my full support. Also im interested in your skill build, cos that's gonna be quite significant.

[Kalandros]

So far I've stuck to Sonic's skill build and using aura strike only when the F button flashes but I am tempted to test Bronx' build later and using AS every 2 Auras. But for now, I like my shield cannon (Sonic has it, Bronx doesn't)

[ZefirusKZ]

Bad thing is that on colo you don't get enough int >_<

Spoiler

Who can sell me stat reset scroll for lower price? 1700z for scroll is too much for me >_<

Want to reallocate stats to 41/41 int/agi.

[Kalandros]

colo accessories and good cards gets you to at least 250.

 

I wish he'd just post on the forums instead of just throwing counter-arguments at me

 

[18:34:39] <~> that sonictmp guy

[18:36:30] <~> he doesn't know
[18:36:32] <~> did you see my math
[18:36:45] <+Silver> your math is pointless

[18:36:49] <~> no it isn't
[18:36:51] <~> it's how you show dps
[18:36:58] <~> luck is a bull-_- excuse
[18:37:12] <~> yes if you're lucky you'll crit 100% and outdps everyone
[18:37:19] <~> but that's not gonna happen for more than like 10 sec
[18:38:42] <~> if you want to min/max you always use math
[18:38:46] <~> that's why EJ had all those threads for wow

 

So basically he's saying that Knight DPS is not a good use of a raid slot if you want to min/max, ignoring the entire utility of an Extra Shield For and, aura shield for 16-20% dmg redux every ~45 seconds to lessen the burden on healers, shield charge and shield bash to intercept and get adds off healers or whatever else you can think of. And heck, even emergency taunt every 20 sec!
etc

 

Sigh~

 

edit: oh hey, an Ange posted under =v

 

Edited by Kalandros, 07 July 2013 - 02:04 PM.

[AngeChan]

Full colo equips knight with +10 weap and int acc with raid buff: 3100 atk, 34% crit (using concentration), 3.2x crit bonus (300 int)

Full colo equips rogue with +10 weap and acc with raid buff: 3445 atk, 62% crit (unstable doping crit buff) or 3975 atk, 42% crit (unstable doping atk buff), 2x crit bonus

 

rogue spells: double attack 25%, deadly blow 60% (5 CP),  moonlight dance (20 sec cd) 110%, poison weap 15%/2sec

bonus dps: 9% for free deadly (assume MD on cd) = 5.4% dps increase, 15% bonus CP = reduce average DA to 4.3 instead of 5 per DB, mark of death 10% bonus damage every 2 min for 30s = 2.5% dps increase (assume no vigor)

 

knight spells: bash 25%, aura strike 45% (3 aura), shield cannon (30s cd) 88%, head crush (max) 10%/2sec

bonus dps: aura mastery 15% chance free aura strike = 6.75% dps increase

 

rogue already have 30% more dps from base stats

assume animation times for big spells are the same, moonlight dance is 1.875x more dps than shield cannon (110% every 20s compared to 88% every 30s)

double attack + deadly combo average average takes 33% longer than bash+strike combo, 4.3x DA+DB = 167.5% dmg, 3 bash + AS = 120% dmg in 33% less time, in same time it does 156% dmg so rogue come out ahead there too

 

Rogue can also use smoke bomb for double damage on moonlight.

 

If any rogue is not doing at least 30% more dps than dps knight in equal gear, they are playing wrong.

Edited by AngeChan, 07 July 2013 - 02:12 PM.

[SonicTMP]

I don't see the crit damage calculated in there, which is what brings knights dps up to par.

Need for pots is going to screw up rogue threat so calculating dps on the meter becomes harder.

 

Double attack + deadly combo average average takes 33% longer than bash+strike combo, 4.3x DA+DB = 167.5% dmg, 3 bash + AS = 120% dmg in 33% less time, in same time it does 156% dmg so rogue come out ahead there too

 

The rogue hasn't even hit their power attack by the time the knight has done theirs. How does a rogue do more damage in the same amount of time when DA and bash both do the exact same amount of damage?

 

Edited by SonicTMP, 07 July 2013 - 03:01 PM.

[Bronx]

People will always argue that pure DPS > hybrid DPS. Knight is technically a hybrid DPS if you build it offensively, since it is by nature, a tank class. It took me a while to convince my guild leader that hybrid knights were the real deal. Results speak for themselves. It's hard for people to swallow, especially if they're experienced in these types of games. If it were possible for a hybrid class (DPS Knight) to outshine a pure DPS class (example: Assassin), then making/playing/raiding with assassins would be pointless. Aside from that awesome crit buff!

 

@ Sonic: I was just trolling about the dueling and whipping out our swords.  

[SonicTMP]

I know you were trolling though I'd be interested in seeing how the 2B-AS rotation compares.

 

[AngeChan]

Assume 300 int for knight give 3.2x crit damage at 34% crit rate is 1.758x dps, 2x crit dmg at 42% crit rate is 1.42x dps or 2x dmg at 62% crit rate is 1.62 dps.

 

Given the rogue and knight stat up there, rogue has either 10% more atk with 13% less dps from crit = 1.1*1.62 = 1.782x dps, or 28% more atk with 33% less dps from crit = 1.28*1.42=1.8176x dps.

 

Either way, crit dmg will at best bring knight to within 15%-20% of rogue dps.

 

since vigor scale equally we can calculate without vigor for 2 mins rotation. We also calculate without proc and then use proc dps multiplier to figure overall damage.

shield cannon, animation time 3 sec, bash/AS animation time 1 sec, assume same for rogue though rogue seems faster on animation

3x bash, shield cannon can be done 4x for total time 24s

3x bash, aura strike 24 times in remaining time.

assume head crush tick whole time

24*120% + 4*163% + 60*10% = 4132% atk power dmg per 2 mins

multiply by crit rate and proc on aura mastery

4132*1.758*1.0675 = 7754.38% atk power per 2 mins in dps

with 3100 atk, 240386 dmg per 2 min

 

5x DA+moonlight 6 times total time 48 sec

5x DA+DB 12 times in remaining time

assume poison tick whole time

 

12*185% + 6*235% +60*15%  = 4530% atk power dmg per 2 mins

multiply by crit rate/bonus atk (20% bonus to either is almost equivalent dps, if atk bonus proc it will do slightly higher so we use crit since it's lower), proc on combo mastery and proc on combo training and mark of death

4530*1.62*1.15*1.054*1.025 = 9117.49% atk power per 2 mins in dps without double dmg moonlight, in actuality rogue can smoke moonlight 2 of the 6 per 2 min for an extra 220*crit dmg (~312% atk extra).

with 3445 atk, 314098 dmg per 2 min

 

With full crit and all proc taken into account, knight is still ~30% dps behind rogue. If nothing proc for either, rogue is still ~20% ahead, but it's near impossible for neither char to get any proc at all.

 

I forgot to mention rogue also get around 100 more vigor/haste on their equips than knight which is about 2.28% more....

Edited by AngeChan, 07 July 2013 - 03:36 PM.

[AngeChan]

I don't see the crit damage calculated in there, which is what brings knights dps up to par.

Need for pots is going to screw up rogue threat so calculating dps on the meter becomes harder.

 

 

 

The rogue hasn't even hit their power attack by the time the knight has done theirs. How does a rogue do more damage in the same amount of time when DA and bash both do the exact same amount of damage?

 

Rogue can use lv 1 pot to maintain buff and only need 1 pot per 3 mins. If they buff before fight starts, they won't get any agro from potting.

 

Look at it over same time duration. Assume 1s animation time for all 4 spell.

 

then knight in 12 sec can do 3x combo, rogue can do 2x.

3x combo knight give 360% dmg (25*3+45)*3, 2x rogue combo give 370% dmg (25*5+60)*2

[SolidJelly]

What makes it worse is that DPS Knights lose 10 seconds of VALUABLE DPS time when they put down Shield Fortress. 

If I wanted the Shield Fortress utility, I'd bring 2 TANK Knights to my raid. 

When a TANK Knight puts down Shield Fortress, he loses aggro, which can be covered by the other Knight, so essentially he loses nothing. 

 

Like what I've been trying to say 1 month ago

[SonicTMP]

Well the numbers look good yet I can keep up with a fully geared sin and ranger. Care to try your rogue on raid boss scarecrows to confirm Ange?

 

@Solid: Tank knights do not lose agro, they stop generating threat. The boss doesn't switch targets because the knight tank uses SF. I won't deny I lose dps time when using SF but that's the entire point of group utility. I'm going to live and help others live.

 

Despite having to use SF pretty much on CD during rat master we still killed him in time during that 5 group rush. We meet the dps enrage timer. So I wan't so far behind for SF to be a determent.

[AngeChan]

I am actually priest but I can ask a partial colo rogue friend to try later when she log on. What kind of test do you want to use? 2 mins rotation, time to kill scarecrow, time how long it take for x amount of damage? I would suggest multiple 2 min rotation to average for a standard basis in case of lucky/unlucky proc and maybe time to kill one time cos 2mil hp is a lot...

Edited by AngeChan, 07 July 2013 - 03:41 PM.

[SonicTMP]

The multiple 2min rotations would work, maybe even a 5min rotation. Time to kill one would be interesting but ya 2mill is gonna take a long time to burn thru.

 

edit: tried for the hell of it. roughly 10min to burn down a raid boss scarecrow.

Edited by SonicTMP, 07 July 2013 - 04:00 PM.

[SonicTMP]

Came back from dinner a there was a  rogue waiting for me, not sure if it was Ange's friend. A single kill the boss test provided the following result.

 

Both of use had self buffs + buff pot + food. S/he worked up pot doping to max before we engaged.

 

As expected the rogue did beat me. But final tally shows that I'm about 8.8% behind in dps. I messed up my rotation a couple times, let concs drop and my Head crush is only lvl 2. I think I could close the gap slightly if I respeced for 4/5 HC and put some more into int from bonus but it's likely it only close the gap by 1-2%. Though gear difference + human error on the rogue's side and it probably stay the same.

 

So, only 1 test. Some more would help pin down an exact difference in dps, well as fixing my stats. Maybe even try fully raid buffed. Still, knight dps is fully viable, not the best but I can keep up.

 

 

 

[Bronx]

No pump it up hard pills? Or Boost Pots?

[SonicTMP]

It was just a  quick simple test. Full raid buffs would be interesting. I'd gain more since rogue's don't get anything from int, though I need to figure out when to switch from agi pots to int pots for best effect.

[Bronx]

I'd imagine Int buff would probably put you even, or maybe even surpass.

[Yoruno]

I'm not sure how much AP the battle order 5/5 can give at your current str, but if it isn't by that much you can drop it down to 1/5 to get 5/5 HC instead. Plus chances are you can get a 5/5 BO buff from a fellow swordie in party if/when you're running one.

Also depending on cannon's level 3B + AS is probably a better choice for long term dps simply because you can go back to bash sooner for aura gain. Meaning more chances to trigger aura mastery over time. Though in my case with 1/5 bash 2B + AS works better.

As for agi vs int pot, im really favoring towards agi pots. Battle tactics needs your crit to actually go into effect so.. or is there a reason to go for int pot instead?
I tried numbercrunching abit and as i was doing it i noticed int-oriented build's damage fluctuates too much compared to agi build which trades off abit of overall dps for lower but more reliable min-max damage. I might be wrong so... Scuse me while I borrow this comment for abit:

 

"Assume 300 int for knight give 3.2x crit damage at 34% crit rate is 1.758x dps, 2x crit dmg at 42% crit rate is 1.42x dps or 2x dmg at 62% crit rate is 1.62 dps."

Based on this and that at lvl 50 crit% = agi * 0.0916, the knight would have 300int and atleast 370agi, 670 stats total.

By shifting 50 point into agi, say 250int and 420agi, your crit dmg becomes 3x and your crit rate hits around 38%.

Can someone do some proper numbercrunching based on this to see which has better dps and which has better min-max range? Appreciated.

 

Edit: something about HC, since you have 5/5 BO you do have the option of using a str boost potion to trigger a better DoT. As long as you keep using your AS in that boosted DoT should keep ticking forever. Not bad for something you get outta a 30sec boost pot imo.

Also in case you've been using HC before conc, use it AFTER conc. Conc's boost works on DoT.

Lastly, don't use HC again once you have one with conc + BO + AB + str boost in, that'll just erase everything it's been doped with. =[

Edit Edit: Starting off with a unbuffed HC until you can use conc is also viable. Unless you trigger aura mastery on first hit HC's initial dmg + first few ticks probably does more than an unbuffed bash.

This is probably  my 9th time editing..

@Solidjelly
Even for a dps knight, I think being able to buff your entire party to survive an unsuspecting shetstorm every 2 mins probably does more good than doing 50% more damage and then getting wiped out by unsuspecting elements.in raid that'd spell a good run wasted, and possibly in woe that could be the difference between winning and losing the emp room. Speculations, ahem...

Edited by Yoruno, 07 July 2013 - 09:43 PM.

[SonicTMP]

I'm already loaded with as much agi I can possibly get without resorting to costumes. I'm crappy at making money.

So agi runes in all slots, 31 from bonus stats. Poisona cards. I could redo my stats and get it up to 51 but that's only 2% inscrease which would put me at that 34% raid buffed WITHOUT a pump it up hard pill. This is also using the 22 agi pot. A min-mongi set would further increase it by another 26. But that's so damned expensive I won't see it until the guild farms enough cards.

 

CoA crit bonus would help, but have to figure out if its a flat 5% boost or 5% of current amount, which would be something like 1.7% if its the later.

 

On the flip side of things, Int can only be increased in the same methods, either via card bonus, runes or pots. Runes are set in stone. The card bonus goes together since it's an int/agi build. So it comes down to simply switching out pot usage. So the math needs to be done, at what point does swaping agi for int becomes more effective IF it even does?

[Yoruno]

AGI pot would be a safe bet while INT pot would be more of "I'm gonna hit you SO HARD You'd die, get resurrected from the shock and drop dead again. IF i hit you in 30 seconds, by chance." This probably goes for any point at any time considering how much agi and int knight gets from their class specific stuffs, which is close to none.

 

After some hairpulling I think it comes down to skills you use and their cooldowns. For example a high cd high dmg skill would benefit more from higher crit rate for its reliability while low cd low dmg ones could use damage boost more.

If I have to put it in perspective, say 3B + AS and 2B + AS cycle.

Comparing the 2, 3B+ AS has more damage output but takes longer while 2B + AS has more frequency, which makes 3 the high cd high off "skill" and latter one the low cd low off.

in 2B + AS cycle, by using AS 1.3x more than traditional cycle I have more chance of critting on AS skill over time in return for losing some damage and less Bash. AS has 1/3 chance of being the skill that crits per cycle, meaning better chance of crit dmg boost happening on AS compared to traditional cycle.

While in 3B+ AS cycle your damage output varies alot depending on if you critted on Bash or AS. having more int on this would increase your max damage significantly while your min damage stays about the same, considering AS would have 1/4 chance to be the skill that crits per cycle. Having more agi however would boost your crit frequency overall which would help the less-frequently-used AS crit more.

 

I could factor in aura mastery proc in, especially considering your post on it:

"bashx2 AS - 25/P/25/P/38/25/P = 203

bash x3 AS -25/P/25/P/25/P/45 = 255

 

Proc strings are RNG so this could happen, but it couldn't as well. Though its safe to say 3 bash is more likely to get a proc vs 2 bash."

Thing is that I think in this case its not how many procs per cycle that matters, its how many bashes that procs. And as far as that goes both cycle has the same 15% chance per bash so.. yah. Omitted.

 

Int on high cd high dmg skill is a gamble. you either win big or you don't. I'd mention Lubu's 10k crits but rage strike does have considerably lower cd than knight's counterpart so =x

Agi on low cd low dmg skill works great too, just that i personally think knight should benefit from making use of BT more.

Edited by Yoruno, 07 July 2013 - 11:02 PM.