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Training Grounds Improvement program


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#26 trahsc

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 07:32 PM

Might be slightly off topic but I hope you guys include some effective anti bot measures with this training groups revamp.

 

^this.

 

revamping training grounds gives you a fantastic opportunity to put in some anti-bot measures.

 

also, there's nothing outright wrong with the current training grounds(other than the swarm of bots), so perhaps all this stuff can be added in a separate room with a really flashy-looking NPC standing outside it with the name "NEWBIE ADVICE ROOM" or something.

 

make it look really obvious and gaudy so the people who never read anything in a tutorial zone ever won't skip over it like they do for all of the current tutorial NPC's that explain the game for you

 

a giant clown NPC juggling airships screaming ODA ODA ODA in lime green text every ten seconds should do the trick


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#27 Themes

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 08:55 PM

While not directly related to the Training Grounds getting an up to date copy of the monster data would be nice! I asked Oda about this and he said he'd put something together but didnt respond to my last PM and we still havent seen anything. It's a coin toss which info is actually correct at this point.


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#28 Sephiroth99

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 07:45 AM

Make it known to new players what items sell well and how important it is to start a merchant to start getting decent zeny. Items like strawberries, blue herbs, stems, poison spores, venom canine, ect. When I first started playing I hunting red bloods for days which was boring and took too long for not enough reward.

 

Probably cant do this but maybe include these monsters in the training grounds to make new players have a quick way to earn fast zeny, or increase the drop rates in the training grounds. New players will get more zeny faster and get tied into the game faster reducing the chance that they get bored and quit.

 

Make it easier to get to job 10 novice and even job 50 first class. I feel like more people would continue on if they got up to level 80 - 90 quicker and participated in WoE and gameplay that required them to join guilds or parties.

 

Explain WoE and Battlegrounds better? I feel like it would get new players more excited to learn about PvP and WoE aspects.

 

I feel like Classic should have some sort of moderate gameplay enhancement and then market it as kind of a grand re-opening. Entice people to come try classic again because __________________.

 

fill in the blank with an increased exp rate or drops rate or something else the GMs can actually do fairly easy. It would make some people upset but to get people to those higher levels faster would make them more apt to join a guild or community event and stick with the game.


Edited by Sephiroth99, 01 August 2013 - 09:51 AM.

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#29 Melkor

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 11:24 AM

Make it known to new players what items sell well and how important it is to start a merchant to start getting decent zeny. Items like strawberries, blue herbs, stems, poison spores, venom canine, ect. When I first started playing I hunting red bloods for days which was boring and took too long for not enough reward.

 

Probably cant do this but maybe include these monsters in the training grounds to make new players have a quick way to earn fast zeny, or increase the drop rates in the training grounds. New players will get more zeny faster and get tied into the game faster reducing the chance that they get bored and quit.

 

 

 

Firstly, that's what Ragial is for, and if we could just promote the use of ragial (although not "endorsed" by Gravity), that would solve this problem.

 

 

Secondly, that would be a WONDERFUL idea, if only the bot-to-new-player ratio was extremely low.  Bots could exploit this to the extreme to wash the server with ridiculous amounts of zeny.  If there was a more active bot removal team that could take care of this, or if it was even possible to keep up with that, then it would be a viable option, but as it is now, it would give much more harm to the server than benefit.


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#30 iamvrypwrful

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 11:33 AM

It should be illegal for ragial to show prices, just show locations..


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#31 EtNox

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 02:37 PM

It should be illegal for ragial to show prices, just show locations..

^this.

For years those marketwatchsites are ruining ingame economy now.

"just for convenience"? Hell no. Being able to manipulate item values with little to no effort or time spent is ridiculous. But just my 2 cent.


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#32 Melkor

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 05:14 PM

Hmm, I don't quite see how it "destroys" the economy.  In fact, I would contend that for a player who doesn't realize just how much something is worth, it is a very useful tool for them not to get ridiculously undercut.  Being able to check prices and find deals is how economy should work, in my opinion.  When someone takes the "gamble" of buying something and then trying to sell it for more, that's their prerogative.  Perhaps I am overlooking something..?


Edited by Melkor, 01 August 2013 - 05:15 PM.

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#33 cadan

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:10 PM

You are overlooking something. Just as an example, 1 guy has been vending an Evil Druid card for 70-80m, which has raised the average price of them from 35m to 50m in about a week. If a new player was to find one of these cards, they might think its worth 50m, when in all reality most players are unwilling to pay above the previous 35m average for them.


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#34 kbb93

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 06:24 AM

I think all of these things that are being talked about (cards, refinement, ect.) should be interactive; reading is out, participating is in.

 

First, revamp that nasty training grounds (TG) building. Make it more fun looking.

 

The first thing players should walk into after entering the building and verifying their name is (I think) every job sprite lined up on either sides, much like the rebirth NPC's on the Valhalla Island. This will give new players an early view of what they want to be.

 

Secondly, as far as the interactive part of TG, make a side-quest so players are given unique TG cards and refining materials so they can experiment with refining and adding cards to their novice weapons. This gives 'green' players a little experience on how a very important mechanic works. Make this weapons effective for 10-20 levels outside of TG, as well.

 

As far as for veteran players who don't want to go through training grounds EVERY time you make a new character, a [coding] value should be added to accounts that have gone through the grounds at least once. This allows existing players to immediately enter Rune-Midgard without going through the monotony of speaking to every NPC again, (I know there is already the direct-warp Kafra as soon as you get in but I hope the revamped TG is more interactive). This will ensure that every new account has to go through the training system at least once, while not negating the hindrance for bots whom won't make more than 1 character per account. 

 

The Magical Stone was implemented in an attempt to hinder the bot pollution problem. Seeing a lot of new players very shocked and upset with this requirement to turn to 2nd job, I think there should be an extensive (optional) quest in TG that gives the player exemption from having to use a Magic Stone when looking to change their job. This quest should be very visible and obvious in it's intention so new players don't leave TG without realizing what they may be missing out on.

 

 

 

**Recommending sites not backed by Gravity would be bad bad bad. Too much liability for one and Gravity can't supervise what content goes up. In order for them to recommend sites like Ragial, ROPD, RMS they would have to create sites of their own.

 


Edited by kbb93, 07 August 2013 - 07:43 AM.

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#35 Melkor

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:59 PM

But that isn't a problem with Ragial showing the price, that's just basic economics.  


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#36 EtNox

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 04:15 AM

Hmm, I don't quite see how it "destroys" the economy.  In fact, I would contend that for a player who doesn't realize just how much something is worth, it is a very useful tool for them not to get ridiculously undercut.  Being able to check prices and find deals is how economy should work, in my opinion.  When someone takes the "gamble" of buying something and then trying to sell it for more, that's their prerogative.  Perhaps I am overlooking something..?

 

Even if something isn't worth much - "but ragial says so its worth so much".

Even if you want to negotiate - "but ragial says its worth so much".

etc, etc.

 

Several people i know are manipulating ragial just to keep values for specific items by creating artificial "supply and demand", thus pushing average prices by a lot.

People are just relying on this site like it's everything, and that's not what it's supposed to be.


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#37 Melkor

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 08:26 AM

To me, it sounds like it's functioning as intended.  Preventing people from getting either lowballed or gipped.  I guess I don't see how that's "ruining the economy," it sounds like it's preventing people from becoming disgruntled and having regrets about transactions.  

 

And that's the trick, Ragial doesn't invent prices, it just records prices.  So if Ragial "says" something is worth something, it's only because it actually SOLD for that much, not just because it was vended in a shop for that much, because it doesn't include the ridiculous outliers that don't sell.  It protects both buyer and seller that way.  I suppose I don't see how that's so wrong.


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#38 EtNox

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 01:04 PM

And that's the trick, Ragial doesn't invent prices, it just records prices.  So if Ragial "says" something is worth something, it's only because it actually SOLD for that much, not just because it was vended in a shop for that much, because it doesn't include the ridiculous outliers that don't sell.  It protects both buyer and seller that way.  I suppose I don't see how that's so wrong.

 

And here you're wrong.

 

People are selling stuff to themselves for ridiculous prices, vending stuff overprized for weeks and thus raising averages with little to no effort.

Ragial doesn't "invent" a price, but the people manipulating it do.

 

I'm amazed that people still don't get how easy it is to manipulate this site.


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#39 Xellie

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 01:43 PM

I enjoy forcing the average price of items up via logging 10 different merchants.

 

Now tell me how ragial can't be manipulated


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#40 Melkor

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 01:51 PM

...but if no one continues to buy those items, then they are wasting their time.  Intelligent people realize that Dokebi horns, for instance, should not be worth 20k each.  That's just insanity.  If someone is logging on their other merchant and buying them from themselves to try to "raise the average," then people will just continue to wait until a reasonable price is offered.  


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#41 Xellie

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 02:05 PM

no, people do buy them, cause they look on ragial, see my lower items as below average =P then everyone else uses the new average I've set, and so on


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#42 Melkor

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 02:15 PM

Those people are clearly insane.  I have been boycotting royal jelly for weeks because I refuse to pay more than 9k per.  I'll do the same with OCAs, Dokebi Horns, Antelope Horns, and anything else that I feel like I need.  

 

 

Anyone who caves in to overpriced junk is clearly a fool.  And a fool and his money are soon parted.  That has nothing to do with Ragial, that has to do with incompetence.  But I guess that's just my two cents.


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#43 kbb93

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 03:55 PM

Is this thread about Ragial or discussing how we can improve the new player experience...?


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#44 EtNox

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 02:05 AM

Is this thread about Ragial or discussing how we can improve the new player experience...?

 

Well, ragial is a big thing that forces newer players to pay stupid prices for usual equipment because every big guild is pushing the average.

But you're right, this is not the right place to discuss this.

 

@topic: Overall creating a new chara should take AT LEAST 10~15 minutes and include several random questions ranging from common sense to answering some questions being shown on pictures maybe.

 

Just so it's harder to bot novie ground - and it's impossible to spam 832948294 novies per hour. So a banned bot actually hurts at least a little, because it takes real time to create one.

 

Lowering bots would actually improve our new player experience by alot!


Edited by EtNox, 04 August 2013 - 02:06 AM.

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#45 KiloZulu

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 02:05 AM

Caveat emptor?


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#46 Melkor

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 12:45 PM

I don't think people understand just how EASY it is for people to make bots.  "Slowing them down" by 15 minutes is NOT going to help.  It is literally impossible for Gravity to ban bots even at the same rate, let alone faster, that botters can make them.  


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#47 JohnNooodles

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 01:26 PM

They could try something similar to what renewal's training ground has, skill books that are removed at the end of the training.  None of the quest NPCs of course but it can be annoying to level a full INT future Mage/Acolyte on spores.  Maybe they pick a future class and get a skill book + novice type weapon to help like a special Novice Rod or Mace that can only be used by them but would be useless to High Novices.  You could take this a step further...optional mini instance dungeon in the novice grounds that would introduce party play and give some kind of special reward like supplies or low level gear/cards (Nothing fancy of course...)  It could include aggressive Porings/Drops and other low level mobs with something like a Wolf or slightly tougher monster that a would be impossible to solo or duo...or even a special mob that looks like an MVP but a lot weaker so it's a boss only to novices.


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#48 EtNox

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 03:12 PM

I don't think people understand just how EASY it is for people to make bots.  "Slowing them down" by 15 minutes is NOT going to help.  It is literally impossible for Gravity to ban bots even at the same rate, let alone faster, that botters can make them.  

 

So you suggest doing nothing will help, as it's "literally impossible"?

 

If you HAVE to spend at least 15 minutes to create a simple novice, then jobchange it and maybe get it banned during the next 2 or 3 days (if our bot-hunting system works...i pray every day the "we get extra people to handle stuff" isn't a lie and they will finally get effective measures against it) you'll probably lost at least something: Your time.

 

People care for having their time wasted - and if you have to create every bot yourself you will get people to waste time on bots, losing at least something when one gets banned.

 

@Topic: Maybe give our newbies some sort of a special novice weapons: A little increased ATK, maybe adding 100~200 HP. I can't imagine how much better Novice/FirstCls-lvling was having a Roda Frog or Pupa Card when i started Ro years ago. But that was when Poring Card was a 0.2% Drop.


Edited by EtNox, 04 August 2013 - 03:17 PM.

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#49 Melkor

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 06:22 PM

So you suggest doing nothing will help, as it's "literally impossible"?

 

If you HAVE to spend at least 15 minutes to create a simple novice, then jobchange it and maybe get it banned during the next 2 or 3 days (if our bot-hunting system works...i pray every day the "we get extra people to handle stuff" isn't a lie and they will finally get effective measures against it) you'll probably lost at least something: Your time.

 

People care for having their time wasted - and if you have to create every bot yourself you will get people to waste time on bots, losing at least something when one gets banned.

 

@Topic: Maybe give our newbies some sort of a special novice weapons: A little increased ATK, maybe adding 100~200 HP. I can't imagine how much better Novice/FirstCls-lvling was having a Roda Frog or Pupa Card when i started Ro years ago. But that was when Poring Card was a 0.2% Drop.

 

Perhaps you don't realize it, but we HAVE gotten a more effective bot banning team.  I spend a significant amount of my personal time on RO going to highly botted maps (gef14, pay08, etc) and report bots, and there has been a SIGNIFICANTLY improved response time and efficiency. And they STILL can't keep up with all the botting done on the server.  It takes a lot of time to ban a bot; the administration can't just go around randomly banning characters.  There is a lot of "paperwork" to do and testing blah blah.  I'm not suggesting that we do nothing, trust me, I am ALL for banning all the bots. I'm just suggesting that what you're suggesting is the wrong thing to be done.


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#50 EtNox

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 11:29 PM

Perhaps you don't realize it, but we HAVE gotten a more effective bot banning team.  I spend a significant amount of my personal time on RO going to highly botted maps (gef14, pay08, etc) and report bots, and there has been a SIGNIFICANTLY improved response time and efficiency. And they STILL can't keep up with all the botting done on the server.  It takes a lot of time to ban a bot; the administration can't just go around randomly banning characters.  There is a lot of "paperwork" to do and testing blah blah.  I'm not suggesting that we do nothing, trust me, I am ALL for banning all the bots. I'm just suggesting that what you're suggesting is the wrong thing to be done.

 

So, tell me what's wrong about it.

15 minutes to create a toon won't hurt people who are willing to play this game for years now.

15 minutes a toon won't hurt newbies which have no clue about this game whatsoever.

 

15 minutes a toon will only hurt people who are spam-creating them, which are most likely people requiring a ton of them -> most likely people which want to bot.

 

To reach our "no bots or at least an acceptable amount" goal we have to

A: Speed up the process of Bots banned.

B: Increase the number of people hunting bots.

C: Slow down/Cap the number of bots being created in a set amount of time.

 

Let's do some simple math:

A GM bans 50 bots/h.

We have 10 botters creating 20 bots/h per person.

 

200 bots/H are created, our GM needs 4 hours - or we need 4 GMs to keep up with 10 people.

 

A GM bans 50 bots/h.

We have 10 botters creating 4 bots/h per person (maximum possible).

40 bots/h are created, our GM needs less time to ban them then people have to spend on creating them.

 

But what am i even talking...you even protected ragial for "working as intended" when it's clearly abused for years. I guess you don't get why I even come up with "math" or something like this in a discussion about bots. In the whole wrong thread.


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