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#1 DestinyDeoxys

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 10:46 AM

So...after the skill update, I've been messing around with balanced build vs. INT build vs. CHA build for a supportive cleric, and I'm wondering why in a crystal defender. A team with a high CHA cleric usually outclass the other two types of the cleric above.


By balanced build, I refer to like 350INT 350CHA,
CHA build, I refer to 400CHA,
INT build, I refer to 400INT.


I tried CHA build finally and still wondering why I couldn't reach that level, the reason is because I'm broke, so I don't have zulies to afford those CHA buff items yet, this should show you why the problem is not onto stat build itself, because your other stat will suffer as you go heavy into 1 stat alone, going 400CHA will make your INT or DEX or SEN relatively lower.


Before going further on this issue, I would also like to tell you that buffset still exist, it is cross-client buffset effect not a self-client buffset effect. Let me give you an example, a 1000 CHA cleric buffed the whole teammates and switch back to fighting gear, the teammates will get to keep the 1000 CHA level buffs, even if the cleric buff again at fighting gear ~400CHA, it will not overlap the 1000 CHA level buffs.


Then, you can also realize that it is ok for costume to contain a high CHA stat, because you just won't war with them, since they are low def/mdef/dodge.



Now, I think it is clear that why a team with a CHA cleric outclass any other kinds of cleric, not because of the stat build, not because of the 1:3 = INT:CHA ratio thing, not because of the high CHA stat on the costume because you won't war with them, it's because there are some items with improper CHA scaling whether they can be used as fighting gear or not.



We understand that cross client buffset effect still exist, and the fact that clerics buff duration are 900 seconds, so you basically enjoy this bonus for quite a long time, that's why we need to limit the level of CHA you can reach with CHA gear, as I've pointed out on my cleric guide that the maximum CHA you can get currently is 1084. Compare to a full CHA cleric on fighting gear, it will have approximately 700 CHA.



1) Therefore, I claimed that the following items are overpowered in terms of CHA scaling, because they can be used as fighting gear since they belong to mask/jewelery category which doesn't have def/mdef/dodge.

-Santa beard 60CHA
-Heart frame glasses 60CHA
-Hiria's tears 60CHA 40INT


Note: If you agree with me in this point, then make sure you know the existence of other CHA mask, Raj'aj mask, Junon mask, Charming glasses, Style glasses, Reading glasses, Leprechaun beard.


Every class follows this pattern, your weapon holding stat [INT/DEX/CON/STR] to CHA stat ratio towards variable is 1 : 3
For example, for hawkers rapid twitch 100DEX will give you 25mspeed through rapid twitch variable and 100CHA will give you 75mspeed through rapid twitch variable.
Same for clerics, 300INT will give same stuff as 100CHA in terms of buff variable and healing amount.


So you understand that they are already balanced with this 1 : 3 ratio thing since CHA does not add any AP/ACC/HP/def/mdef/crit/dodge/mspeed directly, they are only affecting your skill variable indirectly.


2) This makes me question why when main stat [INT/DEX/CON/STR] to [CHA] is already balanced through 1 : 3 ratio. Then why would a re-roll stat itself is still not balanced? If you look at the stat tier below that all the main stat are capped at 20INT 20DEX 20CON 20STR 20SEN but why would a CHA stat capped at 30? Therefore, I also claimed that any re-rolled CHA stat capped at 30 is overpowered, they need to go back to 20 capped.


Note: If you agree with me in this point, then make sure you know existence of other CHA stat like 20CHA 25def, should be re-scaled as well.


High tier/Top tier stat

Spoiler



INT vs CHA onto buffs/heals, if you want to see how influential CHA stat to support cleric.

Spoiler



Also, if you wonder why I make this post, it's because I realized a support cleric currently has nothing but CHA to go for. At first, I thought like oh...if you wanna be a tank cleric, then go heavier on INT. And oh...if you wanna be a more support cleric, then go heavier on CHA. But then I realized it is not the case, there is no point to go for 60dodge 40mspeed anymore since you just can't reach the point to make someone miss on you, there is no point to go for 200HP stat, 75def, 50def/40dodge, because with this 30CHA crap, you don't care any other stat anymore since you get better heals and better buffs in-directly.


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#2 DestinyDeoxys

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:51 PM

I'd say they should leave it how it is. No offense, but your whole post is based on you being broke and not being able to get those buff items (You said it yourself in the 3rd paragraph!).

I myself, dont have all those high CHA items yet, and I am not complaining, but am rather spending my time on trying to get them. You know if you want to have good buffs, you should take the time and patience and get the gear together.
Nothing good in life/game for this matter comes easy. :P
Also not everyone uses their cleric to war in CD, some of us just use them for the buffs and thats it.

Oh and also it is the same for a CON artisan. They too have to get the gear together to get over 1200 CON and I havent seen a post where they are complaining about that.
Just spend some more time and get the gear, my friend.
Some of us already spent billions to get some of those items, not talking about me but other players. Keep those players in mind too. Would be kind of unfair towards them or not?

So yeah, feel free to love or hate me but thats what i think. :D

 

 

If you didn't get what I'm trying to point out. I'll summarize for you. The current state of clerics, they all end up going for full CHA, because there is no point to make cleric defensively because you won't die with a full CHA build, not to mention going for full CHA will just grand you more HP/def/mdef/mspeed/dodge/heals.

INT to CHA is already balanced due to this 1 : 3 ratio, but the CHA stat appear on re-rolled and base stat on mask and Hiria's tear, in my opinion is overpowered.

Look at Heart frame glasses 60 CHA, and a oro present 21INT, both are masks. But can you imagine the buffs/heals influence by both mask? 1 CHA is already doing 3 INT worth of buffs/heals, but here you are talking about 60CHA on 1 item. Using a heart frame glasses is 9 times better than using oro present in terms of heals/buffs.


Whether I'm broke or not for these items have nothing to do with these items being overpowered. I'm fine with any other CHA gear, but mask/hiria's tear and re-roll stat being 30CHA is not ok.
 


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#3 SlowBob

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 02:17 PM

Well my charm cleric dies like a fly, basicly that's why i got me a def cleric too. Switching gear may work, however your on buffs scale back once you change your equip. I myselfe played with a full charm cleric and gears CD, it worked out in that way that my teammates considered my support as important, means they backed me up. Without them i died after 3-5 hits.

 

However i get your point, by looking at the numbers it doesn't make much sence, but overall it looked balanced to me, since my only use was to buff up and heal at the back end of the battle. I'm not sure if lowering the charm stats on certain items would be a good thing, it would be probably a good thing for hybrid builds, however, since they aim for buffing and attacking, they should be a little bit weaker at both points than pure charm / int clerics.

 

What bugs me more is the fact that low lvls are pretty much overpowered due to the static buffs, sadly i got no idea how to fix this.


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#4 Feuer

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 05:22 PM

While yes the clerics buff will go lower from its self buffs from switching gear, what he's saying is the person who was buffed by the cleric, those buffs don't change even if the cleric changes gear. Which is not supposed to function that way. 


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#5 coalchamberloco

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 05:45 PM

I have 934 charm, because I put some items back over time to be ready for this patch.  I will not spend billions of in game money, or hundreds of real world money to catch up with the guys who have over 1k. 

 

Alas those who have spent more than my zero dollar investment in my charm set will have better buffs and heals, and I am ok with that.


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#6 SlowBob

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 06:14 PM

While yes the clerics buff will go lower from its self buffs from switching gear, what he's saying is the person who was buffed by the cleric, those buffs don't change even if the cleric changes gear. Which is not supposed to function that way. 

 

Yes i got that point, however i don't think that this will be changed, it would be hard to realize, have a huge complexity and would make the gameplay less transparent. (means if the idea was to recalculate the buffs)

Another way arround that would be to lock the clerics gears for the durations of his buffs, however this would be a huge disadvantage for that class.

If you found any neat solution post it, i'm curiouse :)


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#7 Feuer

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 06:49 PM

It's a terrible fix but yes I do have an idea. There's 2 ways about it.

 

The first would be that the party buffs require the cleric to stay in the party to remain in effect, and single target buffs either be done away with, or the buff is reduced in power as a penalty.

 

The second would be that buffs are based entirely off the receivers stats, this would be at the consequence of losing the role of a pure support buffer [excludes healing support].

 

Both of which solve the problem of buffset-clerics, however neither are worth the cost and would only anger the entire community as a whole [including myself, I'm rather fond of playing support roles]. So no, at the current time, there is no intelligent way to work around it. It would be something that would require a lot of theory crafting, testing, feedback and further testing. That would consume a lot of time that from what I can tell the staff doesn't have a lot of [time to invest]. Guess we'll all just have to deal with it for now -boohoo-. 


Edited by Feuer, 20 September 2013 - 06:51 PM.

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#8 Aldrine

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 08:07 PM

I myself have 1084 charm and so is my other friend. We spent alot of time/ effort / money / zulie in complete two max charm sets. If your problem is that cross client buffsets then by all means make it so that if the cleric changes gear within pt or group the buffs of everyone in it should be recalculated. But dont go nerfing the charm items. Especially when the devs have this habit of listening only to a select community members ( instead of deciding through votes) and giving them updates on patch notes to come before it even gets posted in the forums.
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#9 DestinyDeoxys

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 08:55 PM

Few points that I need to say again, since many people still don't get what I'm trying to say:

1) I'm not against the idea of cross-client buffset

2) If everyone go for full CHA build, I don't care because they are supportive after all, nothing wrong with that.

3) I'm saying since CHA is such a big buff modifier, we need to limit them, since many of these CHA items were designed for questing pre-skill update, so the GM don't care just type whatever big number they want, but right now CHA becomes an important stat.

4) I feel like if 30CHA is a possible stat on an item, then there will be no point to use other stat such as 60dodge 40mspeed, 20INT, 75def, 50def 40dodge.

5) The CHA stat on mask is just totally over-scaled, no doubt about it and they belongs to fighting gear category.

6) It has nothing to do with who's able to get a hand on these CHA items, if you get 1084CHA, then good for you.


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#10 Aldrine

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 09:10 PM

Scaling the effects of charm lower will make classes like bow scouts weaker as they only rely on the dodge/def/hp buff from cleric to be able to go head on with a good raider for 20secs. Instead of doing so they should just raise int instead.. Win win for everyone.. I dont get my buffs nerfed and you get to be an even better cleric in CD. Or just go make do with whats been implemented already since its annoying that they keep changing things.

Edited by Aldrine, 20 September 2013 - 09:30 PM.

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#11 DestinyDeoxys

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 07:48 AM

http://forums.warppo...ls-buffs-heals/

I'm guessing these values are reliable and updated to pre-skill update. And I'll translate that to every 100INT for easier comparison.

Spoiler


Now, go compare these pre-skill update INT onto buffs modified effect to the current new CHA onto buffs modified effect and tell me how important CHA stat is.

Spoiler




Again, I don't care if the world of support cleric turn into full CHA scenario, but at least don't over-scale CHA on certain items because CHA is already too strong. 60CHA 40INT on Hiria's tear? 60 CHA on a mask? 30 CHA on re-rolled stat? Are you kidding me?


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#12 siamore

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 09:44 AM

lol because you cannot afford them, you ask them to remove items people paid for? what kind of joke is this?

 

 

and all the suggestions about the buffs is compleatly broken, will ruin the cleric class compleatly, how you guys thinking?

 

Let it be how it is, or no one want a cleric you just keep want to ruin cleric more and more.

 

 

If they change the stats of ingame items who already exist they doing some illegal and is against their own Terms of Service, cant change something who being here for over years.

 

 

 

Do you realise how many people who will quit if your worthless suggestion would be used, people invested alot of Money in the game to recieve their stuffs to build a charm cleric, and changing buffs to give only to int will break the game compleatly.

 

Time for you to Think twice of what u saying.

 

 

BESIDE pure cha isnt to strong, from what planet are you? as pure cha cleric we got no defense, you never played against a pure charm cleric so you dont know what you talk about.

 

I get 2-3 hitted by few people by being pure cha cleric, you truly gotta straighten ur fact Before you write useless topics as this.

 

 

Add:

 

Sry if i sounded offended, but i feel offended to see a topic like this after they reduced the aoe heals by 50%, our heals got long cooldown and not rly healing much anymore.


Edited by siamore, 21 September 2013 - 09:53 AM.

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#13 Aldrine

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 11:22 AM

So in the end you dont care about it being a full charm scenario but you are complaining about the effects of charm. How do you know its high? Just because you post numbers doesnt mean thats it too high. And you tested it on where? CD? TG in a contolled dituation with one of your mates ingame? And yes ,it doesnt mean if you cant have it its OP i wonder if you will be posting a topic like this if you were running around with 1084 charm. From my point of view you want the said items to be lowered or charm effect lowered so it wont matter much get it or not since you are broke.

And i think you are overlooking the fact that stats are scaled differently post- skill update the only thing wrong here is int is too low

Edited by Aldrine, 21 September 2013 - 11:52 AM.

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#14 SlowBob

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 01:12 PM

Volks stop flaming DestinyDeoxys. He asked a reasonable question, it got nothing to do with being able to afford something, the prices would stay the same, the items will still be the best ones you can get. He is refering to balancing, which is totally fine in my opinion.


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#15 DestinyDeoxys

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:16 PM

I'm perfectly fine with criticism, but I'll like to see some valid argument to disprove my point of view first at least. I mean like many people here doesn't seem to know that "I'm broke" was totally a sarcastic joke.

And I will not defend myself against any sort of invalid argument, it will just make me look like an idiot.

Now, get back to topic.

I would like to see some competitive clerics to reply first before I give up on this subject, those who actually learn off-hand block passive that don't die in 2-3 hits.


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#16 Nifa

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 04:44 PM

Since I um, don't have the money to get more than, say, ~910 CHA on a full charm cleric, I don't think I can say too much about this. 

 

tl;dr I like hybrid build but have seen decent full int/full charm builds.

 

I've tried a full int, full charm, and hybrid build with my original full int gear from pre-update. You can easily see that the gear will favor int/hybrid build and make testing of full charm build pretty inaccurate. Anyways, I play tanky, slightly worse than OK (but not absolutely horrible) damage cleric. I tested standing around tanking scout/raider/champ, not to mention simply going by the numbers. This testing was a while back before I found my current build, so forgive me for my vagueness. I also still believed in the int-dex cleric build, so my int/cha were lower than current, my def during testing also lower than now. Full int build gave perhaps .5-1.5k more def than hybrid build. Charm build was quite a bit less def than both full int and hybrid but slightly more dodge. Now full int certainly makes your hp drop just a bit slower than hybrid build, but your heals suffer, so if you are unable to heal until right before you die, it is quite a bit easier to die. So you have to keep watch over your health. Full charm build makes hp drop much faster, but heals heal more. So you are constantly healing. For full int. vs. full cha., I would say full int. has better survivability because with full charm, you run a higher risk of running out of heals. Hybrid build lets me heal a bit less but tank a bit more, which is why I personally like a hybrid build best. (it also lets me put some points into con/dex/sen but that's besides the point). 

 

I recently did a CD with 3 other clerics, one of which had +58 angelic buff. I have no idea what gear (s)he was running in, but it died very quickly, so its amazing (or at least, much better) heals were pretty much worthless. We couldn't keep it alive with at least two clerics healing it (not sure if it was healing itself). I have done CD with a full int cleric. Tanky, but quite a bit more difficult to keep the team alive. So I think that full int, full charm, hybrid builds are all still viable, depending on your style. 

 

If you had the exact same team facing itself save for buffs, yes, the one with the better buffs/heals would be at an advantage, but I think it can be offset enough by changing playing style. I let someone test out builds by standing around, healing once or twice every time my health dropped to 20%. First time had lower buffs than the second time by a couple of angelic points. I did not notice too much of a difference.

 

 

 

I think hiria's tear is fine as is because every class would receive the same amount of cha+[main stat]. I can see where some of the face items are pretty overpowered though. 90 (60 because I don't have 90 ..) cha glasses are perfectly fine battle gear (for dungeons, haven't ever tried them in CD) since you get a bit of every stat + heal power. Def drops ever so slightly from my clean oro's present, but not enough to make a difference. 

I actually started a thread in the Cleric section about tankiness of full charm cleric, because I am curious as to whether you can find a balance of charm substats/gear and int gear that makes you absolutely the tankiest. e.g. legendary with rerolled 30 cha/20 int (some combo of pieces with these subs). If so, then I think we'd have a way OP cleric class since legendary gear boosts AP/def, cha/int substats increase def/ap/accu/all stats. But until I am able to test such gear, I'm afraid I cannot say much about 30 cha [substat] needing to be scaled down.

 

 


Edited by Nifa, 21 September 2013 - 04:44 PM.

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#17 Aldrine

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 04:55 PM

First you complain about charm having too much effect on buffs.. Next you complain about items having too much charm thus making buffs higher coz charm has too much effect. Now you are complaining about clerics dieing in 2-3 hits... There is no such thing as a cleric dieing in 2-3 hits. Unless if they are wanting to die on purpose. Seriously just let the subject go you are conplicating an already messed up game. FYI hands down you are one of the best clerics. CD wise the team that wins is the one with better clerics and good mix of fighting classes. Nothing to do with buffs its not a 1v1 fight after all, its 1 group vs another. Shouldnt you be complaining on one team getting 3 clerics and none on the other? At the end of the day its the good players like you that make clerics good in CD and not the gears you wear.

Edited by Aldrine, 21 September 2013 - 04:56 PM.

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#18 DestinyDeoxys

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 05:22 PM

First you complain about charm having too much effect on buffs..

 

Yes, I'm "stating" that CHA have high impact on buffs, not complain. Look at what I said in my 6th paragraph on my 1st post, I stated clearly that there is nothing wrong with INT to CHA being 1 : 3
 

 

Next you complain about items having too much charm thus making buffs higher coz charm has too much effect.

 

Yes, now this is what my major concern is.
 

 

Now you are complaining about clerics dieing in 2-3 hits... There is no such thing as a cleric dieing in 2-3 hits. Unless if they are wanting to die on purpose.

 

Go read again, I didn't edit anything.
 

 


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#19 Aldrine

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 06:12 PM

Well.. Maybe the down side of having high charm is that you die easy. So its the players choice if they wanna be tanky or squishy. Coz you most certainly cant be tanky and with best buffs that just takes away the versatility everyone is wanting in the game for so long. So now i suggest remove cross client buffs so if the cleric switches gears the buffs they made to pt members and group members get recalculated. Rather than messing up gears or stat effects
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#20 Phish

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 06:17 PM

What Destiny is saying is that charm stats gear (not armor) are scaled high which obsolete other stats for clerics. Ie  the highest substat for base stats (str, dex, int, con, sen) is 20, yet for charm it is 30 though it is a base stat as well. Same goes for masks with much higher stats for charm than other base stats. 


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#21 Aldrine

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 06:29 PM

Other than buffs and debuffs what other effects does charm give? Does it give dodge ap crit accu def mdef hp mp just for pointing it into your character stats or just from wearing gears with it? The other stats give ap and such for other classes and charm has that one use atm. So is it still a problem if its 30 and not 20?
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#22 siamore

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 07:14 PM

What Destiny is saying is that charm stats gear (not armor) are scaled high which obsolete other stats for clerics. Ie  the highest substat for base stats (str, dex, int, con, sen) is 20, yet for charm it is 30 though it is a base stat as well. Same goes for masks with much higher stats for charm than other base stats. 

 

lol it isnt scaled to high, maybe work for max charm Before Writing a topic as this, its really not that "good" as he write here, neither OP, either you choose a pure charm cleric were you actually sacrifice most of ur defense.

 

so Writing this topic when you never had 1084 charm, and it shouldnt even be easy to get max charm, i got max charm and it took me 3 weeks to search for all items i wanted, i sacrificed other chars Equipments to be able to perfect my cleric charm, and now he want them to remove "stats on Equipments" who give stats? lower them? what kind of joke is this and how many people will quit, yes alot.

 

its a really bad idea to ask them to change stats for charm when they lowered aoe heals by 50%, with max charm party heal heals for 3k.

 

so you plan to make our clerics even less survival now, you want rid of clerics or something?

 

 

str

int

dex

sen

 

etc add more stats then what charm does, charm only adds to heal and buff, while int adds to matk,mdef, mana etc, we sacrifice alot and should not be changed to 20, compare to the mainstats str,int,dex,sen who adds alot more benefits.


Edited by siamore, 21 September 2013 - 07:15 PM.

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#23 Nifa

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 07:30 PM

Buffs, affected by charm, do affect ap/accu/etc.. So you could maybe sacrifice say, a little bit of int for charm (think swapping clean oro's with clean heart glasses) and get a small boost in many stats and a small loss in def/mdef/ap.


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#24 siamore

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 07:41 PM

Buffs, affected by charm, do affect ap/accu/etc.. So you could maybe sacrifice say, a little bit of int for charm (think swapping clean oro's with clean heart glasses) and get a small boost in many stats and a small loss in def/mdef/ap.

 

no charm does not affect AP, accuracy etc. charm only increase by buffs/heal. We sacrifice defense, hp, mdef, AP, crit, crit dmg, crit dmg/protection for being a pure support while other stats add more benefits.

 

this explains it all why charm adds 30 instead of 20, and should not being hard to figurated if you played a cleric instead of starting rant and make a topic like this.

 

I do Believe if this is changed again it does ruin the will of many players.


Edited by siamore, 21 September 2013 - 07:42 PM.

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#25 kaminichuan

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 10:22 PM

don't forget that CHA is only useful for clerics.. I don't think clerics are OP now so who really cares if there is a 60 CHA mask?


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