105 replies to this topic

[Castanho]

 sorry but I don't think so before update my champ could kill entire mob areas with only 2 aoes.... now it takes 4 aoe skills instead of 2

 

Hmmm so it seens better than i thought. It seens... balanced!

[DestinyDeoxys]

Can you please elaborate on how the both types get the same reduction in charm if your proposal takes effect? How will they both loose 110 cha lets say charm is 974 max and they buffed and changed gear to mspd then they lose charm coz of changing gears. Its still the same situation as having 1084 cha and then changing gears. Only difference is you lose more at 1084 coz stats are higher. So you are wanting buffs cha lowered making buff lower and ofcourse you lose less charm then coz the max charm reachable is lower. Im no pro cleric but i think i will want buffs higher as possible to get the best output from my team since its a support role even if i lose 290+ charm when i switch to battle gear.

 

If cross client buffset effect removed:
Those people who switch to 1084CHA gear and go back to fighting gear, will lose 294CHA buff effect because I'm assuming they are using reinforced 30CHA set, regular 30CHA magic tool, orlean backshield 30CHA and luna set, so they lose 20CHA from backpack, 30CHA from moldie inner tube, 30CHA from chest, 60CHA from hiria's tear, 22CHA x 2 from beautiful jewelery, 40CHA from mummy doll, 30CHA from rubber shoe, 40CHA from shamrock hat. A total of 294 CHA will be lost.

However, those who stick with their 1084CHA gear will just not lose anything, because they are wearing it.




My proposal:
Full support will lose 110CHA (from 1084CHA to 974CHA max), because 30CHA off from mask, 10CHA x 6 off from substat, 20CHA off from hiria's tear, that's 110CHA off total.

[siamore]

If cross client buffset effect removed:
Those people who switch to 1084CHA gear and go back to fighting gear, will lose 294CHA buff effect because I'm assuming they are using reinforced 30CHA set, regular 30CHA magic tool, orlean backshield 30CHA and luna set, so they lose 20CHA from backpack, 30CHA from moldie inner tube, 30CHA from chest, 60CHA from hiria's tear, 22CHA x 2 from beautiful jewelery, 40CHA from mummy doll, 30CHA from rubber shoe, 40CHA from shamrock hat. A total of 294 CHA will be lost.

However, those who stick with their 1084CHA gear will just not lose anything, because they are wearing it.




My proposal:
Full support will lose 110CHA (from 1084CHA to 974CHA max), because 30CHA off from mask, 10CHA x 6 off from substat, 20CHA off from hiria's tear, that's 110CHA off total.

 

your proposal is denied in my opinion, you just seem to not understand it will destroy us support clerics, you dont got 1 so you just sit there and "become happy", because you cannot afford stuffs.

 

charm is not OP far from, and seeing you to wanting to destroy cleric even more just makes me want to puke, sry but the fact is that charm cleric is so weak right now and all you can Think about "oh i want 20 on rerolls on charm to, its unfair they get 30 compare to other stats", if you dont know the fact please look up that charm does not affect def, armor, ap and so on and you asking them to make it more useless?

Edited by siamore, 23 September 2013 - 06:40 AM.

[Phish]

This would 'destroy' clerics in the same way reducing party heals 'destroyed' them, which is not at all. The purpose of the change would be for consistency, but I don't think it should take place because of the number of people opposed to it. 

 

I don't see any problem with cross client buff sets, and honestly it would probably be too much effort to 'fix'. So a cleric buffs you in charm gear, and then they switch gear and your stats go down. What would happen if the cleric leaves the map? Dies? Logs off? Too many scenarios that would also effect it and it's really not even worth it because.... who cares if still works as a buff set.

[siamore]

This would 'destroy' clerics in the same way reducing party heals 'destroyed' them, which is not at all. The purpose of the change would be for consistency, but I don't think it should take place because of the number of people opposed to it. 

 

I don't see any problem with cross client buff sets, and honestly it would probably be too much effort to 'fix'. So a cleric buffs you in charm gear, and then they switch gear and your stats go down. What would happen if the cleric leaves the map? Dies? Logs off? Too many scenarios that would also effect it and it's really not even worth it because.... who cares if still works as a buff set.

 

agree with this

[Leonis]

DestinyDeoxys,

 

Looking over the original post, I see and feel your point, this is what I will confirm for you. Charm was not reviewed thoroughly throughout all potential equipment combinations to see how it would play out in the 'ultimate collection' case. It is possible that some pieces may need some consideration in adjustment, because of the ease of obtaining the item or it not having comparable alternatives that are equally obtainable or are on a different level of difficulty. However, that being said, a full Charm build is still a bit of a sacrifice, because of the amount of equipment and stat focusing it has.

 

At this point in time, there's no plans to make any dramatic changes to the existing gear, aside from perhaps updating (upgrading) some pieces with some of the new stat types that were added with the skill update.

 

I appreciate the time and effort you've placed in to reviewing the impact and differences of certain gear and even singling out specific gear that you feel are in need of attention. Those items and others like it will be put to a review to ensure they fall within the guidelines we have for equipment balances. For now, let's just keep in mind that many of these older gear pieces were given the stats without the consideration of what Charm has become.

[siamore]

DestinyDeoxys,

 

Looking over the original post, I see and feel your point, this is what I will confirm for you. Charm was not reviewed thoroughly throughout all potential equipment combinations to see how it would play out in the 'ultimate collection' case. It is possible that some pieces may need some consideration in adjustment, because of the ease of obtaining the item or it not having comparable alternatives that are equally obtainable or are on a different level of difficulty. However, that being said, a full Charm build is still a bit of a sacrifice, because of the amount of equipment and stat focusing it has.

 

At this point in time, there's no plans to make any dramatic changes to the existing gear, aside from perhaps updating (upgrading) some pieces with some of the new stat types that were added with the skill update.

 

I appreciate the time and effort you've placed in to reviewing the impact and differences of certain gear and even singling out specific gear that you feel are in need of attention. Those items and others like it will be put to a review to ensure they fall within the guidelines we have for equipment balances. For now, let's just keep in mind that many of these older gear pieces were given the stats without the consideration of what Charm has become.

thats why they shouldnt be changed, games Always have some kind of rare stuffs and this game needs more of those items, in the length the game Always end up "all got same stuffs", and thats the Point of having stuffs not everyone can get or afford.

[Aldrine]

If cross client buffset effect removed:
Those people who switch to 1084CHA gear and go back to fighting gear, will lose 294CHA buff effect because I'm assuming they are using reinforced 30CHA set, regular 30CHA magic tool, orlean backshield 30CHA and luna set, so they lose 20CHA from backpack, 30CHA from moldie inner tube, 30CHA from chest, 60CHA from hiria's tear, 22CHA x 2 from beautiful jewelery, 40CHA from mummy doll, 30CHA from rubber shoe, 40CHA from shamrock hat. A total of 294 CHA will be lost.

However, those who stick with their 1084CHA gear will just not lose anything, because they are wearing it.




My proposal:
Full support will lose 110CHA (from 1084CHA to 974CHA max), because 30CHA off from mask, 10CHA x 6 off from substat, 20CHA off from hiria's tear, that's 110CHA off total.

So it was still going to be the same thing as with 1084 only that the loss will be smaller coz the stats are lowered. Someone should beat some common sense into you. You should pvp 1v1 or war with a clan buffed with 1084 charm cleric then talk about charm being too much instead of crunching numbers or getting a mate to test damage on you. Your only gain from this change is classes will have less buffed stats making your cleric more tanky. Instead of equal balance you are tipping the scale to your favor.

Edited by Aldrine, 23 September 2013 - 01:41 PM.

[Feuer]

Shouldn't some items like [Hirias tear] be left as is, after all, there is a limted fund for those items [1 created per character that completes the quest] and should remain as a special item? I understand the need to limit the max possible stats to be balanced with other comparable stats / items, however I feel some items should retain that special luster. I guess what I'm saying is don't make it too bland, keep a few special items around, like the old union rings. 

[LoveU4ever]

Stop saying "cant afford" no one cant afford anything.

It is just cleric should have different kind, not only get the max charm.  Support cleric is support cleric should be only for support like buff and heals not really able for war.

 

I dont know why this time they took out the buff set , but let cleric switch to CHA gear for buffs. what is it suppose for this "changed"?

[Feuer]

Stop saying "cant afford" no one cant afford anything.

It is just cleric should have different kind, not only get the max charm.  Support cleric is support cleric should be only for support like buff and heals not really able for war.

 

I dont know why this time they took out the buff set , but let cleric switch to CHA gear for buffs. what is it suppose for this "changed"?

 

No this is an error technically, it wasn't supposed to function in that manner

[Bendersmom]

The clerics are not using buff sets per se.  When they change their gear their stats change with the gear.  I really don't see it as a problem.  Fighters change gear as needed depending on who they are fighting.  The stats change with the gear.  It is a part of our class and strategy.  In CD I usually buff the group in the beginning with my charm gear and change to war gear, but during a good battle I rarely change so the group has to deal with my lower charm buffs.  That is one of the trade off that I have as a war cleric.  I last longer in my war gear but my buffs are not as strong and my heals are a lot lower than if I wore charm gear.  If wearing charm gear I would die a lot faster and not be able to support my team as well (other than standing way back and buffing the group or using my ranged heal).  To me, those are options of the class and makes clerics a bit more diverse.  Just like other classes are able to adapt to their playing style and type of things they are doing.  I don't think gear needs to be changed atm but charm stats do need to be considered on any new gear or weapons that are introduced.

[jagz]

The clerics are not using buff sets per se.  When they change their gear their stats change with the gear.  I really don't see it as a problem.  Fighters change gear as needed depending on who they are fighting.  The stats change with the gear.  It is a part of our class and strategy.  In CD I usually buff the group in the beginning with my charm gear and change to war gear, but during a good battle I rarely change so the group has to deal with my lower charm buffs.  That is one of the trade off that I have as a war cleric.  I last longer in my war gear but my buffs are not as strong and my heals are a lot lower than if I wore charm gear.  If wearing charm gear I would die a lot faster and not be able to support my team as well (other than standing way back and buffing the group or using my ranged heal).  To me, those are options of the class and makes clerics a bit more diverse.  Just like other classes are able to adapt to their playing style and type of things they are doing.  I don't think gear needs to be changed atm but charm stats do need to be considered on any new gear or weapons that are introduced.

 

Definitely agree, and we don't always agree.

 

I love feasting on full charm clerics. When they are alone I think they are in trouble, it's when they have a couple other clerics with them that their build becomes very good and helpful for their team's survivability. In fact I think quite a few are wearing IM + reroll 30, IE no defense, easy target. However if someone is in full charm 30 reinforced, sure they'll be alright but still on the squishy side in my opinion. The heals are huge, sure, but will they out last one mute alone? Maybe not.

[Feuer]

The clerics are not using buff sets per se.  When they change their gear their stats change with the gear.  I really don't see it as a problem.  Fighters change gear as needed depending on who they are fighting.  The stats change with the gear.  It is a part of our class and strategy.  In CD I usually buff the group in the beginning with my charm gear and change to war gear, but during a good battle I rarely change so the group has to deal with my lower charm buffs.  That is one of the trade off that I have as a war cleric.  I last longer in my war gear but my buffs are not as strong and my heals are a lot lower than if I wore charm gear.  If wearing charm gear I would die a lot faster and not be able to support my team as well (other than standing way back and buffing the group or using my ranged heal).  To me, those are options of the class and makes clerics a bit more diverse.  Just like other classes are able to adapt to their playing style and type of things they are doing.  I don't think gear needs to be changed atm but charm stats do need to be considered on any new gear or weapons that are introduced.

 

I see a valid point to that indeed. Having a cleric that buffs the group, but loses their own buff strength from swapping to a combat gear. Seems like just a class benefit rather then a bug. It puts the clerics at a dissadvantage

[Genesis]

I dont know why this time they took out the buff set , but let cleric switch to CHA gear for buffs. what is it suppose for this "changed"?

 

Clerics are no exception to the rules of the status effect system.  There are a few simple rules to this system following the skill update:

 

1. All buffs and debuffs (both cast on yourself, and recieved from other players/monsters) are recalculated based on the character's stats following a change in equipment or passive skills.

Rationale: You should not be able to benefit from equipment bonuses that are not currently equipped, or passive bonuses that are not currently learned.  Increasing your stats through learning/upgrading skills and equipping stronger items will automatically scale your buffs to take these new bonuses into account.

 

2. Self cast buffs will also have their base stat modifiers (CHA + STR/DEX/INT/CON depending on class) updated to reflect your updated base stats following a change in equipment or passive skills.

Rationale: Same as above, you should not be able to benefit from equipment bonuses that are not currently equipped, or passive bonuses that are not currently learned.  Increasing your stats through learning/upgrading skills and equipping stronger items will automatically scale your buffs to take these new bonuses into account.

 

3. Self cast buffs which you are no longer eligible to recieve benefits from will be removed.

Rationale: You should not be able to benefit from an equipment specific buff when that equipment is not currently equipped.

 

4. Casting a buff or debuff on a target other than yourself will not cause the base stat modifiers to be recalculated.

Rationale: You should be able to exchange and share buffs and their effects between other players based on your current abilties.  It would have been interesting to have targeted buffs recalculate based on the original caster's current stats and their proximity to you, but this would be a technical challenge in itself.

 

---

 

I've seen a reference to a new fangled term "cross client buff sets", which I'm assuming is supposed to be some way of justifying a normal process in the status effect system (see point 4).

 

The bug/concept of "buff sets" existed because of how percentage bonuses from status effects would be converted into a single static amount based on your stats at the time of casting a status effect, and relied on that single static amount not being recalculated when switching equipment, unless the resulting static amount from a recast of the skill could override the old amount as a stronger bonus.  That no longer happens with the new system - all bonuses are calculated from their original percentage and static components, and that's what finally put this issue to rest.

 

As to what spurred us to finally make the change (which we did say would happen eventually), was during the skill update, where it was brought to our attention that even with weapon restrictions on certain passive skills, it was still possible to attain many of the benefits of those passives by switching to a compatible weapon required by the passive skill, buffing up and switching back to an incompatible weapon.  This is behavior we were not willing to allow as it went against the design intentions of the skill update and had to be addressed.

 

Lastly, when INT was the only primary stat that affected status effects, the base modifier wasn't recalculated for self cast or target cast buffs, but that wasn't down to a bug, it was more of a design consideration.  While reviewing the status effect system during Pegasus testing, we decided that at the very least, base stat modifiers should follow the same recalculation principles as other stats to further reduce the caster's direct benefits from items that are not currently equipped.  It would have been interesting to have targeted buffs recalculate based on the original caster's current stats and their proximity to you, but this would be a technical challenge in itself that couldn't have been addressed in a reasonable timeframe during the skill update.

 

Hope that gives a little more insight into why the change was made.

[Clockwyrk]

<coughs gently>

 

I'm just an average, aspiring cleric here, currently evenly balanced between int and cha as my primary stats (not my only stats).  I don't really have anything terribly special (other than I make sure I keep my gear upgraded as high as is safe to upgrade without risking item level loss).  On that note:

 

[Nifa]

Great to see you in forums Miru

[Clockwyrk]

<wavewave!>  Thanks, Nifa! <3  I'm hoping to connect with more of the friends I've been making ingame, here. :3

[Feuer]

88 muse, with standard gear, in OT fighting 148+ mobs. This, should not be occuring in a game like ROSE. 

 

I see the scaling down in power for balance as good, however there needs to be a REAL impact that rejects players fighting mobs with such huge level gaps. This doesn't only occur for clerics either. The tie in I see is that losing ~200 cha from not being able to "cross client buffset" is really not that big of a deal. People complaining about a 1% difference in stats that Everyone~ loses is a global impact but everyone end up on the same field still. 

 

Seeing as this issue which I assume is being looked into for a fix judging by the posts from the staff, it affects clerics, specifically buff clerics which everyone relies on for power. So a reduction in the amount [not the ability to] buff affects all classes that receive the buff, it fixes it, and keeps everyone on the receiving end of the buff on the same level. It shouldn't be an issue technically, but there are people who will complain about their numbers going down, even when everyone + every class stats all go down to match. 

[Bartik]

Where can I get CHA gear for my cleric? Orlo monsters?

[siamore]

88 muse, with standard gear, in OT fighting 148+ mobs. This, should not be occuring in a game like ROSE. 

 

I see the scaling down in power for balance as good, however there needs to be a REAL impact that rejects players fighting mobs with such huge level gaps. This doesn't only occur for clerics either. The tie in I see is that losing ~200 cha from not being able to "cross client buffset" is really not that big of a deal. People complaining about a 1% difference in stats that Everyone~ loses is a global impact but everyone end up on the same field still. 

 

Seeing as this issue which I assume is being looked into for a fix judging by the posts from the staff, it affects clerics, specifically buff clerics which everyone relies on for power. So a reduction in the amount [not the ability to] buff affects all classes that receive the buff, it fixes it, and keeps everyone on the receiving end of the buff on the same level. It shouldn't be an issue technically, but there are people who will complain about their numbers going down, even when everyone + every class stats all go down to match. 

right now you making me laught, either you choose to be a pure support or a war cleric, some people choose to be a war cleric and some choose to be a support cleric.

 

People complain for having war clerics in team instead of support clerics, because their buffs is lower then a pure support cleric? eh what, this made my day.

[Nifa]

The thing is, Miru is fighting OT mobs at 88 with simply her own buffs and gear refined to +7-9. If she was working off, say, 1084 Cha buffs, then OK, the scaling is still problematic but more understandable. And she kills them fast enough such that it's faster for her to level on these OT mobs than on..idk, golems.

 

Only immediately after the update did I find someone complaining about war cleric buffs. They all know better by now about the sacrifice for better buffs. 

[siamore]

The thing is, Miru is fighting OT mobs at 88 with simply her own buffs and gear refined to +7-9. If she was working off, say, 1084 Cha buffs, then OK, the scaling is still problematic but more understandable. And she kills them fast enough such that it's faster for her to level on these OT mobs than on..idk, golems.

 

Only immediately after the update did I find someone complaining about war cleric buffs. They all know better by now about the sacrifice for better buffs. 

exactly, we sacrifice alot for better buffs, but some people seem to not understand that all they see is "they got good buffs buuuhuu, remove charm!", they dont see Everything we sacrifice.

 

def,

mdef,

AP.

crit,

Dodge,

crit dmg reduce

 

and so on...

[Clockwyrk]

How is it unfair for me to be fighting those mobs with a wand, whatever power that wand gets from my int and self-buffs, and my ability to heal myself to keep my pixels "alive" :3 ?

Edited by Clockwyrk, 27 September 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[SlowBob]

How is it unfair for me to be fighting those mobs with a wand, whatever power that wand gets from my int and self-buffs, and my ability to heal myself to keep my pixels "alive" :3 ?

 

it's not unfair for you at all, however it brings up the question how "balanced" the game is if you can kill a mob which is 40 lvls higher than you.