226 replies to this topic

[jerremy]

When mentioning all this, you should not forget that mages die in 3 hits. The mage class is a high dps/crowd control character, but is squishy. Not to mention they get focused incredibly hard because of this and usually die before they even get to do anything. Don't forget that the aural pierce mdef down is laughable now as well since clerics can purify the entire group pressing the button once.

As a champion, you get highest attack power in game, among the highest skill powers, possibly pierce defense and extra skill power or criticals and enhance damage. On top of that, your base attack speed is decently high (really high for spear champs) and knights and clerics aside as a champion you are one of the tankiest classes in game thanks to your base HP and defense. Your skills pretty much all have amongst the lowest of cooldowns and can easily be spammed, you do have access to a defense, attack power and movement speed down, a dodge down, possibly a crit down, ...

When berserk was not even available in CD cause of buffs not overriding eachother, champs were already doing fine as they were, even without the 50 or 100% additional damage. Now that it is available and didn't get looked at thoroughly it makes champs easily score top of the board by using berserk and aoeing for a bit. If you really think this 'nerf' is laughable and that champions are balanced as they are.. please recheck a few things.

[DigitalKitten]

I suggest you to play a Mage or a raider and go straight into the crystal, when you've done that a few times ... Feel welcome to say what you think about champs.

[Logi]

The only characters to get more points every single time is cleric, its easy for me now to obtain 360 points as easy as it was 110 ( patch coming so ill stop there), but Id gladly give in some tankyness as I agree sometimes I can take tons, 1 cleric might be down fast but 2 already creates a problem as mutes get canceled by each others purify ( if your lucky enough to have a cleric with a brain that is).

 

I think alot of champions have had it too good for too long. They expect to tank and do strong damage, have high ap and be able to get good aspd, like jerermy said, make em work for it. As much as I thought katars were strong in pvp, I have to heal my ass of now just to keep them alive, and like digitalkitten said, they better not get close to the aoes, or ill be reviving another one.....

 

I wont even start about bourgs, yes their ranged aoes hurt or the killpower of gunbourgs can be impressive, but target them and I have to drop all my major heals on them just to delay their death by 5 sec, a death which WILL come.

 

This is just to give you a feeling of CD, kick champs AOE power or dmg back a bit, make clerics a little more squishy and I think it could be alot of fun !!!, these words just make it seem like there are alot of problems, but I got a feeling were are closer to are reasonble pvpstatus then before ^^.

[jerremy]

The only characters to get more points every single time is cleric

O'really?

 

 

[DigitalKitten]

Barely anyone but the defenders are capable of standing in the crystal nowadays though, that is a problem as they hide there = no game play.

[Logi]

Yes really, im on my lappy now so I dont have the screenshots here sbut I can easily enough post scoreboard with several clerics on top wiht 360 points. Ths doesnt mean clerics only get high points just like yours dont prove only champions get high points. Both can get it, I just wanted to poiint out they are the only other class that can do this easily.  Perhaps I should have made the sentence: The only other character that can ALSO get high points..... happy ?

[jerremy]

Yes really, im on my lappy now so I dont have the screenshots here sbut I can easily enough post scoreboard with several clerics on top wiht 360 points. Ths doesnt mean clerics only get high points just like yours dont prove only champions get high points. Both can get it, I just wanted to poiint out they are the only other class that can do this easily.  Perhaps I should have made the sentence: The only other character that can ALSO get high points..... happy ?

*Puts on grammar-_- cape and flies away* I am delighted!

 

My job as a ghost haunting the forums aside, I think points in general are too easily generated by raw damage/healing inflicted. Although kills do improve the honor you gain, and deaths make your gain lower, the effect is barely noticeable. 

Edited by jerremy, 18 December 2013 - 07:16 AM.

[Logi]

Its just to easy indeed, we have to fight for points, not just collect them with ease, the current high point numbers are being looked into so Ill stay away from that but just to show what I did yesterday, 3 wars, some more difficult then others, I had to work like crazy in only 1.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

[SlowBob]

O'really?

 

 

 

 

 

In my opinion one of the main probs is the high amount of clerics in here. Since they are just permanently spamming heals, hardly anyone dies, means a champ can just spam the aoes and have an insane dmg output that way. A single target class however, which relys on kills due to the lack of an aoe, has a bad time in those matches. (Beside the fact that it isn't fun to play that way)

 

This shows pretty much what i mean:

 

 

[Phish]

Out of curiosity have any Akram Arena games started?

[Bendersmom]

The worst thing about CD now is that everyone hides in the crystal and there are too many clerics.  I have been in a number of CDs where we could not get the crystal down because we had no real attack power on our side.  I think the amount of points you get for healing the crystal should go down.  Not how much you can heal it but the amount of points you get for healing it. Maybe then some of the crystal healing spamming clerics will actually help heal the team and not just the crystal.  But if the cleric is working their butt off healing, buffing, purifying the team then they should be rewarded as much as the fighters.  It is not easy to be a good cleric in wars, and I mean a good cleric that does everything.  But being a crystal healing spamming cleric is a piece of cake and those should not be rewarded.

[DigitalKitten]

Tried to que akram but people are too "busy" with Crystal defenders. Unless people stand and shout in trade chat for it, I doubt it will start. But we're planning on getting two plans to organize one later on so for who ever on Leonis is feeling like helping us to make it start, it would be appreciated. I still feel like trying the expanded Akram arena. I've only managed to play it once since it was implanted, back when we had a free energy event up.

[Mintmms]

I suggest you to play a Mage or a raider and go straight into the crystal, when you've done that a few times ... Feel welcome to say what you think about champs.

Champs cannot dodge, and they cannot cloak to negate dying. The only way to slow impending death is to either get a stun in as axe or the mute as sword(which still allows for normal attacks). Once you start getting ganged by 2+ people, its pretty much over, while mage has an out with mana shield and raider has an out with cloak.

 

When mentioning all this, you should not forget that mages die in 3 hits.

I guess Intelligence/MP build+mana shield doesn't exist right? It's kind of funny because mages can kill champs in like 4-5 hits. Either even out the damage or tone down the skill effects.

Edited by Mintmms, 18 December 2013 - 01:21 PM.

[DigitalKitten]

Yes, I agree with this, pre-patch. Now, not so much. If you used your HP pot and you don't have the cleric to save you, you instant die after two seconds. There's a reason why everyone wants to defend.

[Dutcheagle]

Well i was gonna sum up almost everything you guys posted but after reading this topic especially the last 2 pages i realized you guys mentioned it all.Lets hope we can make some change somehow in CD.

[Leonis]

The values of honor given for damage and healing, I'm looking to reduce significantly and focus it more on kills, so gaining honor really is about making a definitive impact (removing a player from combat). We had wanted to include additional point bonuses for other objectives, but we haven't reached that point yet and the score board doesn't support them yet either. But it is obvious the skill update changed the scale of damage to check for along with the match arena sizes.

[cloud1221]

still fixing issue about accu vs dodge?

[Bendersmom]

The reason healing was added into the mix was that clerics do not do much damage, even battle clerics.  So clerics were not doing any Game Arena games because they got nothing for working so hard.  So healing was increased for clerics.  It is a good plan but some clerics are really taking advantage of it by just sitting and healing the crystal and spamming party heals for members.  A good cleric does a lot in a good fight.  They heal, buff, puri, rez, etc.  Those clerics work their butts off in a good war and should be rewarded for that as much as the bourgs or champs that just aoe the crystal.  There are ways for each class, other than knights and raiders atm, to just use AOEs to mass kill for points just like there are clerics that just mass heal.  

 

I think that healing the crystal should not give points or the points should be reduced.  But healing in general should still give clerics a good chance at max points if it is a good war.  Like I said, a good cleric really does a lot of work and deserves the points.  I often feel that in a tough war I do a lot more work and a lot more is expected of me than most of the fighting classes.  

 

If you nerf the ability for clerics to get decent scores then you will not have clerics in the games.  Maybe reducing the healing points for the crystal will make less clerics join, but a few less clerics that do nothing for the team really won't hurt the game, and may improve the games with less clerics that do no damage and more fighters that can do damage to the crystals.

[borgahutt]

lets just say imo the pvp is pretty screwed right now.

 

how is it a good strategic game when you can literally die in 1 second... thats ridiculous. i think many people will agree with me that before all of the balancing update the pvp was way way better!!! you could tank and i can tell you if it was reverted back to how it was there wouldnt be a gang of spammers in the crystal like there is in EVERY war now. everyone just stands in the crystal and if your out and you die the cleric will just say 'stay near me in the crystal' how ridiculous is that.

 

imo changes need to be made to actually make pvp gameplay appealing as its runined so bad... its run run run or stand and die.

clerics dont need any skill anymore as its just a job of get as many points as possible for healing etc.

 

i remember back in the day when team work and skill was needed for example, there would be me as a cleric with a good cleric friend of mine and we would puri and position ourselves in the wars to enable us to tank away and heal our team at the same time. gear is a joke now as there is only need to stand in one place and spam.

 

high AP is what most is going for, so the removal of buff sets and changing gear has really made all gear choices more linear than they were before, i saw a variety or different builds that people would use and it would work well for them, now everyone follows the same pattern which is needed for the dull pvp side of this game.

 

it annoys me how the game has gone from being fun to play and now the 'changes and choices' being made are really not benefiting at all as everyone dies stupidly quick and its even more unbalanced than before. yes youve made some good skill and class/stat changes but alot have really gone backwards.

 

dissapointing really

[jerremy]

I guess Intelligence/MP build+mana shield doesn't exist right? It's kind of funny because mages can kill champs in like 4-5 hits. Either even out the damage or tone down the skill effects.

Yeah, that will net you on a full MP build at most 15k dmg buffer, but as the fight progresses and your mp keeps downing cause of using the shield (and endlessly getting manabraked thanks to the cooldown being reduced to 3.5seconds, which I think was a really bad move Leonis..), it actually doesn't help a lot. The best mage I know doesn't even use mana shield aside from the start of battle since the casting time is long and tends to get stuck, so it easily gets interrupted by sleeps, mutes or stuns.

[Dutcheagle]

The reason healing was added into the mix was that clerics do not do much damage, even battle clerics.  So clerics were not doing any Game Arena games because they got nothing for working so hard.  So healing was increased for clerics.  It is a good plan but some clerics are really taking advantage of it by just sitting and healing the crystal and spamming party heals for members.  A good cleric does a lot in a good fight.  They heal, buff, puri, rez, etc.  Those clerics work their butts off in a good war and should be rewarded for that as much as the bourgs or champs that just aoe the crystal.  There are ways for each class, other than knights and raiders atm, to just use AOEs to mass kill for points just like there are clerics that just mass heal.  

 

I think that healing the crystal should not give points or the points should be reduced.  But healing in general should still give clerics a good chance at max points if it is a good war.  Like I said, a good cleric really does a lot of work and deserves the points.  I often feel that in a tough war I do a lot more work and a lot more is expected of me than most of the fighting classes.  

 

If you nerf the ability for clerics to get decent scores then you will not have clerics in the games.  Maybe reducing the healing points for the crystal will make less clerics join, but a few less clerics that do nothing for the team really won't hurt the game, and may improve the games with less clerics that do no damage and more fighters that can do damage to the crystals.

Well to be honest i know you do a lot in a CD but there a lot of clerics that just only know buffs,party heal and healing xtal thats it and yes believe me thats true.

With that said i don't mind clerics keeping the pts but then they should make it capable for a scout,raider to get the same amount cause in the end of the day we all fight to win so it should be based on your activity in a CD.If not then i think they should lower the max capable points in a CD so its fair i know i will make a lot of people angry by saying this but at this moment its just way to unfair how honor is distributed if someone play's a lot of cd he will notice champs,clerics and then bourg mostly end up beeing on top with the highest honor this is all because of the healing / aoe .. 

[Logi]

I think what bendersmom is also trying to say is that certain clerics are their purely for the points and don't hel their team at all. The world may be burning down around them, they focus on healing the crystal to get more points. You can't expect people to solve this themselves so decreasing to amount of points you get from healing the crystal could help change their attention to their team. I've stood next to crystal as well, but I am no stranger to running around and helping with puri and heals, tactical gameplay needs to be rewarded while egocentric behaviour shouldnt be rewarded as good.

[Bendersmom]

Exactly what I mean Logi.  I do heal the crystal but only when it is about to die and we are trying to save it.  Otherwise I never do.  Therefore my points are usually lower than a lot of the clerics in the game we are in.  I heal players, I buff like crazy, I res, I purify all that need it as I can.  If we are trying to save the crystal by healing then that is to help the team.  I do not believe points should be rewarded for it.  That might solve the issues of having the clerics that just spam heal on the crystal and party heals.  If you don't participate in helping your team then you should not be rewarded.  Remember, we used to get mad at the people in UW that just came in and stood AFK at top.  To me this is the same thing.  Some clerics are just getting rewarded for spamming heals and not for supporting the team or helping in the outcome of the battle.  

 

Borgahutt - I understand what you are saying and I also feel the PVP aspect of the game is not there yet, but I think the Devs are working on it.  Give suggestions as to what needs to be changed or what the problems are maybe in a point by point way.  Just saying it should be like it used to be isn't very helpful.  I do agree that PVP seems to be less exciting then it used to be, but maybe that is because it is more balanced.  I guess it depends on which end you are talking from - the one owning everyone or the one being constantly owned.  But specifics would help I think.

[Nifa]

I think what bendersmom is also trying to say is that certain clerics are their purely for the points and don't hel their team at all. The world may be burning down around them, they focus on healing the crystal to get more points. You can't expect people to solve this themselves so decreasing to amount of points you get from healing the crystal could help change their attention to their team. I've stood next to crystal as well, but I am no stranger to running around and helping with puri and heals, tactical gameplay needs to be rewarded while egocentric behaviour shouldnt be rewarded as good.

Half of the ones that just stand at the crystal are just bot healing/aoeing too >__>

[Necromancer27]

So finally some ppl share my point of view about crystal defender....

 

I hate when some clerics (i play cleric too...) just stay at xtal and just spam party heals and heal xtal...they dont even help their other teamates......when i play defender, i dont like to hide at crystal...make the game soo boring....i almost always wait for the other team not inside xtal...then ask for some purifies cause as cleric, almost all champs mute me.....sometimes dont get even a single purify or a target heal... (when i play as mage and go attack side, it happens too...cause as mage (kill mage first) almost happens...so i got banged by a lot fo ppl and just get party heals, when 1 target heals r much more powerfull...but i think they think those heals r just for crystal......and that sux.

 

When those clerics go attack side, they got killed really fast, cause they dont have the protection of the crystal...some of the things i think that would make the crystal defender got much better are

 

1.- Try to balance the number of clerics per team (i know this has been discused, but just my opinion)

2.- Healing crystal gives NO points, not lower points thatn healing teamates....NO POINTS....if a cleric play for the team, they should focus on healing the rest of the team, and heals crystal not for getting point, they should heal crystal to avoid it to be destroyed.

3.- Ppl CANT HIDE AT cystal......just playing mage and when i go defend side, i hide at xtal, but almost always do that cause i got no good support from clerics (sometimes we got good clerics on the team and can go out from xta) but when they r focused on healing crystal is really hard to stay alive...so if ppl cant hide at crystal, make the roll of the clerics much more important than just party heals....is really annoying that almost all the games are the same : defend side - all hide at crystal - attack side - all really near crystal (both teams spam heals and aoes...) make it really boring....no strategy, no teamplay....nothing.

4.- i dont play rose as much as almost all people that post here do....i really dont like pvp, im just like a crystal-pvm player....and as a crystal players, i think xbow classes r really OP....for example, mages-artis r really powerfull attacking, but they are squishy....champs are good attacking and defending, but they need to get near to hit, but xbow knights and specially xbow scouts are ridiculous...they are really hard to kill and their attacks are really strong, ..they dotn have aoe but can kill mages or artis really fast....the advantage those classes (muses/dealers)got against champs or raiders (the range...i know is not just that, but is a really important one) is lost against xbow classes....sometimes all the team is against just 1 xbow and he/she can escape...wtf....

 

I dont know if all these ideas are ok with you, but those are the ones i think will make crystal better........