254 replies to this topic

[RegalPrime]

Edit: Someone told me Power Absorption no longer absorbs SP from monsters. Is this true? If it is, why?

It is true because people were able to get full sp with almost 0 work.
Right now, you get 1% of your total SP back per sphere (Yours and everybody around you).
Zen does give all 15 spheres if you are buffed, so zen->absorb would net you 15% each combo (-sp skill costs)

You can also grab spheres from ANYBODY (friend or foe) and get that 1% SP per sphere. Ive stolen a few spheres from afk lvlers.

Edited by RegalPrime, 05 November 2010 - 08:10 PM.

[sgvince]

Zen and Guillotine Fist cast times are very intentional nerfs to the champion job. Don't forget that guillotine fist is the strongest damaging skill in the game. It deserves a 1 second cast time (0.5s in secrament). One could argue it should take even longer.


Think about it from this perspective. Before renewal, in order to gfist someone, you needed to zen, fury, zen, gfist. Lets say your champ had 100 dex, 100 int. In renewal, those stats are 75% reduction of variable (feel free to calculate cast time with this or use the formula sqrt((dex+int/2)/265)).

Pre-Renewal Zen-Fury-Zen-Fist

0.4s zen
0.0s fury
0.4s zen
0.4s fist

1.2s Total

Post Renewal Zen-Fury-Zen-Fist:
1.4s zen
0.0s fury
1.4s zen
1.25s Fist

4.05s Total

Now that would seem slow, but you're not doing it right. You have new tools at your disposal, and you should be using them. Let's break it down further.

Post Renewal Rising-Fist:

0s Rising Dragon
1.25s Fist

1.25s Total

Post Renewal Zen-Fury-Fist with Secrament:
(With rising dragon up, after casting fury you still have 10 spheres and can cast fist without a second zen)

0.7s Zen
0.75s Fist

1.45s Total

Post Renewal Rising-Fist with Secrament:

0s Rising Dragon
0.75s Fist

0.75s Total

I don't know about you, but renewal not only allows you to match your pre-renewal speed, it can even allow you to exceed it. You just aren't using the proper setup. These skills don't need a change AT ALL, I would hate for the GMs to over-react to complaints and make it even faster, in my opinion they already went too far when they shortened zen.



Rampage blast is very high damaging, it does not need to be changed. Gate of hell is intentionally made hard to get, like the old guillotine fist. If you don't like it, don't get the skill, there are plenty of good skills available. Power Implantation gives 5 spheres, which is +25 mastery damage to anyone. That's really good, even if you don't see the value in it.

you are forgetting that you should not count sacrament all the time. there are very limited number of ABs in ymir that has max sacrament. and most of em belongs to one guild. also, there is a huge re use delay for rising dragon. and you are wrong. it is not the strongest skill in the game. well it is but in a woe perspective, its inferior to alot of these other skills. stringed cart cannon can outdamage,outkill, and outplay GF anytime anywhere.theres no set up needed it for it. if cart cannon can do damage gf never did even pre-renewal, i dont see why we shouldnt bump up zen/gf to near what it was before. do you see what im saying? 4 seconds to kill one person is brutal. a genetic with 2 belts and a hammer can deck out a guild in a blink of an eye. a tao gunka'd RK can wipe a guild in a blink of an eye. heck, even an area reflect paladin can wipe people faster than GF. and none of those skills need such a drastic set-up

[sgvince]

How is a 3750% skill BAD? Before it was absolutely BROKEN! there is no point in comparing with a 11250% skill that is cappable of wiping guilds in 1 hit every 10 seconds.

Why don't you compare it to "balanced" skills with similar function like

Ignition Break 2250% in a 3x3 AoE using FIRE weapon with a 2s casting time and a 2s cooldown or
Storm Blast 4000%, if the RK has 120 total INT, in a 7x7 AoE with a 2 second casting time a 1s cooldown and is a RUNE which costs Zeny and is limited to 20 uses unless they go to kafra (If they use kafra cards then it will cost real $)?

Though RB is bad DPS but it is high enough burst to level quite well in PVM after you have weakened the mob with Sky net blow.

no seriously though, my sura is 131. RB is inferior to alot of leveling skills. it needs more damage. it does so little in pvp and woe scenarios without belts that you can barely even tell a sura is hitting you. the re use delay and the sp cost of it makes it even more useless in woe. it only becomes good when double belted. and if you are, youll still feel that RB is a bit sluggish compared to other skills. a sura needs 2 belts, a glorious mace, and gentle change to efficiently level at bio2. you need so much just to use rampage blaster. it kinda limits me from going to other places as well if i have RB as a leveling skill because it needs so much sp, i have to bring so much blue pots, this is brutal on good leveling spots, where bwinging back to the inn for sp is out of the question, or requires a tele scroll.

[Clogon]

you are forgetting that you should not count sacrament all the time. there are very limited number of ABs in ymir that has max sacrament. and most of em belongs to one guild. also, there is a huge re use delay for rising dragon. and you are wrong. it is not the strongest skill in the game. well it is but in a woe perspective, its inferior to alot of these other skills. stringed cart cannon can outdamage,outkill, and outplay GF anytime anywhere.theres no set up needed it for it. if cart cannon can do damage gf never did even pre-renewal, i dont see why we shouldnt bump up zen/gf to near what it was before. do you see what im saying? 4 seconds to kill one person is brutal. a genetic with 2 belts and a hammer can deck out a guild in a blink of an eye. a tao gunka'd RK can wipe a guild in a blink of an eye. heck, even an area reflect paladin can wipe people faster than GF. and none of those skills need such a drastic set-up

1) Well just help/wait for more AB's lvl up for Sacrement.
2) Blame the devs for giving Cart cannon a quadratic formula damage formula with exponential DPS capabilities. (BTW Rift is much better than Strings if you want to increase its DPS)
3) There is a reason why DBreath and Reflect damage are blocked by Gunho in jRO. XD


Bio 2 is a horrible place to lvl as a 131 Sura... you get ~0.11 exp/hp on the monsters their but they have SO much HP that killing them takes a very long time. Lvling at thanathos tower will probably give you better exp/hour as they are 25% easier to kill but also give the same similar exp/hp.

[Doddler]

you are forgetting that you should not count sacrament all the time. there are very limited number of ABs in ymir that has max sacrament. and most of em belongs to one guild.

People said that about assumptio pre-renewal, but that didn't change the fact that in order to do anything remotely challenging, you needed assumptio. The fact that people don't have many high level ABs YET shouldn't be a reason to change class balance.

also, there is a huge re use delay for rising dragon. and you are wrong. it is not the strongest skill in the game. well it is but in a woe perspective, its inferior to alot of these other skills. stringed cart cannon can outdamage,outkill, and outplay GF anytime anywhere.theres no set up needed it for it. if cart cannon can do damage gf never did even pre-renewal, i dont see why we shouldnt bump up zen/gf to near what it was before. do you see what im saying? 4 seconds to kill one person is brutal. a genetic with 2 belts and a hammer can deck out a guild in a blink of an eye. a tao gunka'd RK can wipe a guild in a blink of an eye. heck, even an area reflect paladin can wipe people faster than GF. and none of those skills need such a drastic set-up

PVP isn't the entirety of this game. Of course other skills are better in certain situations. That doesn't change the fact that GF does the highest damage. Highest renewal fist damage I've seen was just below 5 million damage. It should be balanced like a skill that deals the most damage of any other skill in game. Yeah, rising dragon has a 30 second reuse delay, but it i still an instant preparation for gate of hell or gfist.

It just seems that you're arguing that you won't be happy with the class unless you eliminate the need to prepare your one shot skill. My post was arguing that by utilizing your skills as a sura, you don't take any (or much) longer to get fist off than it did before. I disagree that there needs to be any adjustment to the class, it is already stupidly strong. If you don't see it, you should come back when you play with sura's at level 150.

[sgvince]

in the end theyre gonna do some fixing doddler. i dont like how you think everything is just find the way it is. suras need to get vamped.

[Bomm]

since when were monk class supposed to be good at leveling as well as killing everything else in the game? The idea had always been that monk class = slow leveling but the best in killing mvps and other players. That was the tradeoff but a lot of things have changed and that's what made the monk/champion/sura branch overpowered to the point it shouldn't be.
People complain about renewal that the monsters are easy to kill and boring yet everyone keeps wanting their characters to be buffed all the time.

Sura is already the best class in the game, if there's something to be done it is to either nerf it or bring everything else up to its level.

[Myzery]

1) Well just help/wait for more AB's lvl up for Sacrement.
2) Blame the devs for giving Cart cannon a quadratic formula damage formula with exponential DPS capabilities. (BTW Rift is much better than Strings if you want to increase its DPS)
3) There is a reason why DBreath and Reflect damage are blocked by Gunho in jRO. XD


Bio 2 is a horrible place to lvl as a 131 Sura... you get ~0.11 exp/hp on the monsters their but they have SO much HP that killing them takes a very long time. Lvling at thanathos tower will probably give you better exp/hour as they are 25% easier to kill but also give the same similar exp/hp.

You 1 shot bio2 with belts, how is it not good?
Lvling a Sura is so painstakingly bad without god items, I'm pretty much just gonna give up until bbs are put back in.
Not sure if you have ever lvled one, but a lot of places look decent on paper and aren't.
I was making around 6m+/h in Magma 2, but when you out lvl it everything else is slow without god items.

[Myzery]

since when were monk class supposed to be good at leveling as well as killing everything else in the game? The idea had always been that monk class = slow leveling but the best in killing mvps and other players. That was the tradeoff but a lot of things have changed and that's what made the monk/champion/sura branch overpowered to the point it shouldn't be.
People complain about renewal that the monsters are easy to kill and boring yet everyone keeps wanting their characters to be buffed all the time.

Sura is already the best class in the game, if there's something to be done it is to either nerf it or bring everything else up to its level.

You know nothing about classes in renewal if you think this.
Genetics are the strongest in every aspect, along with one if not the fastest lvler.

[Brindizer]

I really don't know what the hubbub about Sura is. Why does everyone think it's the strongest? Gate of Hell is ridiculous, but it's reducible by defending aura, blockable by pneuma, and it's supposed to be neutral.
Tiger Cannon will one shot you and 24 of your closest friends, but it's really hard to set up properly. Using Dragon Combo/Fallen Empire before it isn't always easy.

Gate of Hell requires a lot of job levels and Tiger requires high HP/SP. Suras before that have to rely on being a combo champ with auto-generating spheres or with Lightning Ride, and leveling with Lightning takes a hell of a lot of pots.

Suffice to say, people aren't leeching off Suras in Abyss Lake 3 right now, but they're definitely leeching off something else there.

Edited by Brindizer, 06 November 2010 - 04:57 PM.

[Bomm]

You know nothing about classes in renewal if you think this.
Genetics are the strongest in every aspect, along with one if not the fastest lvler.

So Sura is supposed to be buffed to become as strong as a Genetic?
Secondly, 1v1 duel, a sura will win, mvping, a sura will win. In a team vs team scenario, haven't seen much of those to judge yet. SO yeah, Suras are the strongest.
Btw, by "strongest", I don't mean being able to let people leech off them, I call that leveling fastest.

[Brindizer]

So Sura is supposed to be buffed to become as strong as a Genetic?
Secondly, 1v1 duel, a sura will win, mvping, a sura will win. In a team vs team scenario, haven't seen much of those to judge yet. SO yeah, Suras are the strongest.
Btw, by "strongest", I don't mean being able to let people leech off them, I call that leveling fastest.

It's not exactly true. At the beginning of the duel the Geneticist can pull out a mandragora or place a weed on their face. You can hide clip a Gate, but after the mandragora the Sura's pretty much screwed since pneuma will have a cast time to it.

It's not necessary to buff a Sura at all. It's just their options for leveling skills are pretty harsh as it stands, where a Geneticist can do it much easier and still be a god among men at 150.

[Myzery]

So Sura is supposed to be buffed to become as strong as a Genetic?
Secondly, 1v1 duel, a sura will win, mvping, a sura will win. In a team vs team scenario, haven't seen much of those to judge yet. SO yeah, Suras are the strongest.
Btw, by "strongest", I don't mean being able to let people leech off them, I call that leveling fastest.

Mvping the Genetic will win easily, lol.
Where did I say that they need buffs? I really like the Monk class, tons of utility. It's very strong, but not the best.

[Bomm]

It's not exactly true. At the beginning of the duel the Geneticist can pull out a mandragora or place a weed on their face. You can hide clip a Gate, but after the mandragora the Sura's pretty much screwed since pneuma will have a cast time to it.

It's not necessary to buff a Sura at all. It's just their options for leveling skills are pretty harsh as it stands, where a Geneticist can do it much easier and still be a god among men at 150.

snap around, don't stay where you'll be affected by HoM. Snap + CC and the Genetic is useless.

And how does a genetic beat a sura at mvping?

[MangoKing]

snap around, don't stay where you'll be affected by HoM. Snap + CC and the Genetic is useless.

And how does a genetic beat a sura at mvping?

If you are asking in relation to high end mvping competition, a mvp biult sura with megs/etc all the good stuff will do twice as much damage as a fully geared genetic to most mvps.
For example, a sura will do 900k fist to satan morroc, genetic will do around 450k per a bomb.(This is not including lex because its not feasible to include while competing against others in mvp. Genetic can at least get 3 bombs off per a fist. Point is, even with Rising dragon, genetics will out dps suras. Even if you start degrading both class's gear or level, dps of genetic will always be higher. Granted, sura's have the advantage if their fist will one shot the mvp, but I was refering mostly to high end mvps.

(This is not a rant post, rather a explanation of how genetics outdps suras. Even with the dps difference it's more of a luck thing of whoever finds it first.)

Edited by MangoKing, 08 November 2010 - 09:14 AM.

[sgvince]

genetics are able to do this because MVPs are back to pre iRO nerfs. they have ridiculous amount of VIT

[Peeyo]

I just want the skills to do what their descriptions say (in other words please fix the descriptions), I've been having one hell of a time deciding what kind of skills to get as a Sura mainly because all the skills do not do what they are intended to do. RiL supposedly shoots 15 spheres, Howling lion is supposedly 15x15 and Rampage Blaster is also a supposed 7x7 yet none of those skills come close to dealing the damages intended within the spaces they are confined to.

That said I do hope that a new Resetting method enters the scene given that I could not level fast enough to barely begin to touch on any of the sura skills and understand their potential. THAT or bring back a sakray that allows us to test easily with super rates or instant level NPCs. Testing before became moot as all the skills are continuously entering new stages of development such as rampage blaster losing the blunt force of it's impact.

(Also messed up my skill build by two points and looking for a way to fix that) Please advise.

[Nick221cen]

Im for fixing the OI the way it was supposed to be, fix the cast time for TSS to be shorter, Zen shorter cast time along with SSA to work more often or if not then make it uninterrupted

I havent made a Sura yet so i cant say anything for the Sura abilites

[MagicHands]

Ok.....Lemme get this straight...the only reason zen is worth any amount of the cast time it has is because when you get rising dragon you automatically get the maximum amount of spheres right? other than that....champs are completley useless and on top of that Suras are too unless there id say around 125-130+ and its insane too level them even with god items. Zens cast time is retarded, plain and simple even with sacrement.....so Gates of Hell can kill one person...i see RKs wiping whole guilds out at like 140...rampage blaster has been completley nerfed too where the dmg cant be used in woe effieciently please....somebody please get some of these people too stop posting i find there rants straight up retarded. Seriously not only did champs get nerfed too where the only capable way of leveling is Combo but Suras seem weaker than prerenewal champs if you ask me. The only thing they did right with champ or sura layout is the gentle touch and Mental strength. other than that it is a horrible class, i dont even know why people complain about Gx's being nerfed i see almost nobody making suras because they know how crappy they are.

[MagicHands]

The only thing is almost every class has something very reliable too kill with when they 3rd class and its decent for them too gain levels ect. Champs cast time for a Fist is like 4 seconds even with sacrament i think a clashing spiral could beat it and you dont even need too zen fury zen. Also i remember even having problems fisting people with a .7 cast time because they could throw down a saftey wall before i could get there. Saftey walls cast time hasnt changed much so Fist is obsolete in woe unless your a Sura with Cursed cirle and then you still need an insane amount of job levels. I just think that there skill tree needs better starting skills so it isnt so hard too level them.

[Tolrin]

This thread makes me sad. I see a lot of input from people who clearly do not have much experience with the end game, or much ability to understand simple math behind things. Comments like "you shouldn't have to rely on having sacrament" make me particularly aggravated, especially when people complain that the game doesn't require enough team work; having to rely on another classes buffs is exactly what is needed to have a fun team based game. Would you suggest that wizards should not have to rely on bards for magic strings, and therefor all the delay on their skills should be cut by half? Because thats more or less the same thing as the comments about sacrament.

Specifically about comments regarding safety wall and fist, not only does the champ class have tools to prevent a player from casting safety wall (pnuema blocks it) they also break an entire wall in a single hit now, fist is much stronger against safety wall than it used to be.

I think many of the complaints about champ stem from the fact that I hardly see any players on either server using the classes powerful skills. I'm not going to tell you how to play, but perhaps you should have done some experimentation when there was a test server open, or have watched some videos of WoE/PvP on kRO and jRO.

It is my personal opinion that the balance of the Sura class is perfectly fine as is, there are several viable builds to follow, and a few very, very powerful end game skills. If anything could afford to be changed, it would perhaps be in the monk or champ skills rather than Sura skills, say perhaps occult impaction or TSS could afford to be a bit stronger to allow players to play the 'pure spirit' build that so many seem to favour. That being said, there are viable options that are not pure spirit, and I personally don't even think that build is good either way in the end game, I think people need to re-evaluate their preconceptions of what the class SHOULD be and explore what the class CAN be.

[MagicHands]

But the fact remains a lot of other classes don't have too rely on other classes to become DECENT, I strongly disagree that this class is fine where it is, and also I'm pretty sure with the cast time that I have with fist, even if I pneuma'd it directly on an AB or high priest they would still have time too move away and still be able too throw a sw down.

[Tolrin]

The cast time you have with fist. As I said, perhaps you should change your build if you are unhappy with it's performance. I played a 99 base dex champion for the majority of valk server's existance, and now in renewal I have just as little cast time on my fist as I did before, but even if I didn't it wouldn't matter to me, as there are so many powerful Sura skills available to me that I don't feel the need to rely entirely on a monk skill for my build.

[Pururu]

Cursed circle kinda make fist cast time the last of your worries though.

The problem i have with that class is that the leveling tools are unlike many other class a complete waste of skill points (why should i get sky blow, ril or rb when it won't be able to kill anyone in pvp/woe? and instead get revitalize or whatever usefull skill) and they are also terrible leveling tools even if you have access to really good gears and only are decent at like job 26-30 if you don't take sky blow.
That class only really shines (and they do) at high level unlike almost every other jobs, and they are just completly usless at low level and kinda struggles to level decently, and honestly not fun to play with because of it.

Edited by Pururu, 10 November 2010 - 10:43 AM.

[MagicHands]

But the fact remains a lot of other classes don't have too rely on other classes to become DECENT, I strongly disagree that this class is fine where it is, and also I'm pretty sure with the cast time that I have with fist, even if I pneuma'd it directly on an AB or high priest they would still have time too move away and still be able too throw a sw down.