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#51 Kaden14

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 01:57 PM

Hi, I'm Kaden. Welcome to Ragnarok Renewal!

Here in Renewal, there are many counters (as there should be) to the strongest single target skill in the game, Guillotine Fist. Because of this, we don't just walk up to people and cast it without first disabling them. Luckily, we were given a skill called Cursed Circle which happens to be.... that's right, a disable. It is, in fact, easier to kill people with Guillotine Fist now in Renewal than it was before. And one step beyond that, you now have several other killing builds to choose from that all offer very strong, very fast casting skills that can kill people without having to use your whole SP bar. There's even better news! Not one of these builds hinders your ability to kill people with Guillotine Fist.


You have now been educated, so shut the-_- up

Edited by Kaden14, 10 November 2010 - 01:58 PM.

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#52 Hitotsu

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 06:20 PM

who is this narb that keeps talking about Safety wall? even after it was pointed out to you.

If someone tries to cast safety wall when you Gfist them, GFIST WILL BREAK SW, THE DAMAGE WILL CUT THROUGH, AND THEY WILL DIE.

Safety wall is no longer an issue for suras, they IGNORE it. Your main worry is hide. :D
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#53 MagicHands

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 07:38 PM

ok now that i have too establish this for the third time in order for you too be even decent with Cursed circle you need around 130+ before Cursed Circle for a viable option. You cant really level with Cursed Circle so this skill is gonna be one of the later skills that you have. MEANING most of the times you probably wont have it because its so hard too level.
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#54 Kokotewa

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 10:42 PM

Hi, I'm Kaden. Welcome to Ragnarok Renewal!

Here in Renewal, there are many counters (as there should be) to the strongest single target skill in the game, Guillotine Fist. Because of this, we don't just walk up to people and cast it without first disabling them. Luckily, we were given a skill called Cursed Circle which happens to be.... that's right, a disable. It is, in fact, easier to kill people with Guillotine Fist now in Renewal than it was before. And one step beyond that, you now have several other killing builds to choose from that all offer very strong, very fast casting skills that can kill people without having to use your whole SP bar. There's even better news! Not one of these builds hinders your ability to kill people with Guillotine Fist.


You have now been educated, so shut the-_- up

Couldn't have said it better myself.
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#55 Anibe

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 06:09 AM

The only thing that is really wrong that has been mentioned here are the skill descriptions (including RIL's SP requirement, which says 80 instead of 30) and the sprite errors (could also take some time to fix the stupid behavior after GFist, and every sinlge monk in here should know what I'm talking about). Also, after being interrupted casting certain skills (like Zen pr Spirit Sphere Absorb) the character gets stuck and won't do certain actions like attacking, you need to move one cell or recast another skill to set yourself free; sounds small but it's pretty annoying.

Now I'll rant about the combo damage since everyone has proposed their own adjustments (that will probably end up being completely ignored):

Monk and champ combos got a nice buff, but I think they are still short in DPS. The damage doesn't worth the pain since these skills have so much requisites:

- You need certain amount of spheres (and recast spheres after every combo).
- You need trifecta to trigger.
- Even when it triggered, takes a while to perform the full combo.
- You just CAN'T use them if you are lagging a bit.
- When you reach certain ASPD there is no other option than just spamming your Ragging Quadruple Blow key every time you are hitting a monster.
- High SP cost (a full combo can easily take more than 100 SP, not even counting the zen requirement). Linking yourself is a pretty good option, but having to link yourself would be another contra of the combos.

Makes me sad to fulfill all those requirements to see HSCR or CS doubling or tripling CCC's damage, which only require to press a button and select target (and some zeny for HSCR). I still like the combo way a lot and I'm sticking with it because it does have lots of advantages, but having to fulfill all those requisites to do less damage than almost every other melee class in the game is what bothers me. I'd suggest to remove the sphere requirement for all the combo skills except CCC.

Edited by Anibe, 11 November 2010 - 06:38 AM.

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#56 Brindizer

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 06:40 AM

Is there a way to perhaps allow Dragon Combo to be used after Chain Crush? That way we can keep going. With Rising Dragon we should have enough spheres to pull off a ridiculously long combo, but the game artificially makes us stop after CCC. If CCC is intended to be a finisher, I'm sure there's another point in this chain where Dragon Combo would fit. You can use it after Trifecta, but there's currently no reason to. As I suggested before, Dragon Combo should do increased damage when used as part of a combo. I plan on making a Sagat build and I would like it to be streamlined a little better.

Imagine the awesome key setup. From W to I: Raging Quadruple Blow, Raging Thrust, Glacier Fist, Chain Crush Combo, Dragon Combo, Fallen Empire, Tiger Cannon.
That would use 8 spheres, meaning you'd have to at least summon an additional sphere to do it twice without pause if you had Rising Dragon 10.

@Anibe

The number of spheres you need for a combo suddenly stops mattering once you have Energy Gain. At level 5 I can literally chain crush everything I come across and never have to zen. Ever.

Edited by Brindizer, 11 November 2010 - 06:45 AM.

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#57 Myzery

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 08:22 AM

The only thing that is really wrong that has been mentioned here are the skill descriptions (including RIL's SP requirement, which says 80 instead of 30) and the sprite errors (could also take some time to fix the stupid behavior after GFist, and every sinlge monk in here should know what I'm talking about). Also, after being interrupted casting certain skills (like Zen pr Spirit Sphere Absorb) the character gets stuck and won't do certain actions like attacking, you need to move one cell or recast another skill to set yourself free; sounds small but it's pretty annoying.

Now I'll rant about the combo damage since everyone has proposed their own adjustments (that will probably end up being completely ignored):

Monk and champ combos got a nice buff, but I think they are still short in DPS. The damage doesn't worth the pain since these skills have so much requisites:

- You need certain amount of spheres (and recast spheres after every combo).
- You need trifecta to trigger.
- Even when it triggered, takes a while to perform the full combo.
- You just CAN'T use them if you are lagging a bit.
- When you reach certain ASPD there is no other option than just spamming your Ragging Quadruple Blow key every time you are hitting a monster.
- High SP cost (a full combo can easily take more than 100 SP, not even counting the zen requirement). Linking yourself is a pretty good option, but having to link yourself would be another contra of the combos.

Makes me sad to fulfill all those requirements to see HSCR or CS doubling or tripling CCC's damage, which only require to press a button and select target (and some zeny for HSCR). I still like the combo way a lot and I'm sticking with it because it does have lots of advantages, but having to fulfill all those requisites to do less damage than almost every other melee class in the game is what bothers me. I'd suggest to remove the sphere requirement for all the combo skills except CCC.


They should make combos cost no spheres while in fury, just like with snap.
I really don't see how it's viable to lvl without link, although gain and rising dragon kind of make up for it as a Sura.
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#58 Anibe

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 09:58 AM

Is there a way to perhaps allow Dragon Combo to be used after Chain Crush? That way we can keep going. With Rising Dragon we should have enough spheres to pull off a ridiculously long combo, but the game artificially makes us stop after CCC. If CCC is intended to be a finisher, I'm sure there's another point in this chain where Dragon Combo would fit. You can use it after Trifecta, but there's currently no reason to. As I suggested before, Dragon Combo should do increased damage when used as part of a combo. I plan on making a Sagat build and I would like it to be streamlined a little better.

Imagine the awesome key setup. From W to I: Raging Quadruple Blow, Raging Thrust, Glacier Fist, Chain Crush Combo, Dragon Combo, Fallen Empire, Tiger Cannon.
That would use 8 spheres, meaning you'd have to at least summon an additional sphere to do it twice without pause if you had Rising Dragon 10.

@Anibe

The number of spheres you need for a combo suddenly stops mattering once you have Energy Gain. At level 5 I can literally chain crush everything I come across and never have to zen. Ever.


I know, but I'm trying to make up for the low damage with PP: Change.

I like the no sphere requirement when in fury state :]

Edited by Anibe, 11 November 2010 - 09:59 AM.

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#59 Brindizer

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 10:01 AM

Is the increased damage really worth having to Zen every couple monsters though?

Unless you're only using Quadruple. I dunno! I have an alt account linker so I bring that everywhere I go. Currently I raging thrust mobs and use sky blow when it gets nasty.
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#60 MagicHands

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 12:56 PM

Oh, Kaden you forgot too mention the 1 sphere requirement Cursed Circle takes up. Meaning without rising dragon = NO fist but thanks for your input.
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#61 Pururu

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 01:12 PM

It's still a pretty good disabling skill before you get rising dragon though, like disable a shadow chaser so another sura can fist it without a possibility of casting shadow form etc...
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#62 MagicHands

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 06:03 PM

Oh and Kaden let me know when you play a Sura /no1 so you can actually have valuable input on this conversation.
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#63 Kaden14

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 06:20 PM

Oh and Kaden let me know when you play a Sura /no1 so you can actually have valuable input on this conversation.


http://ropd.info/?na...vel&dir=asc&s=4

What lvl are you?
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#64 Skank

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 06:28 PM

http://ropd.info/?na...vel&dir=asc&s=3

a+++++++++++++++++++=
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#65 MagicHands

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 07:23 PM

Lol well ymir is a bit easier too level but im gonna shut my mouth anynways. The point is if you ever go too valk, look at how many suras there are vs every other class. The fact that there so hard too play without god items or extremley great gear is pretty lame.
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#66 Kaden14

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 08:43 PM

Lol well ymir is a bit easier too level but im gonna shut my mouth anynways. The point is if you ever go too valk, look at how many suras there are vs every other class. The fact that there so hard too play without god items or extremley great gear is pretty lame.


Summary:


-suras are balanced
-I did not have fun leveling
-renewal isn't so bad
-we need new maps
-suras are balanced



Post:


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that sura leveling doesn't suck. It was very annoying and very expensive (I used around 45k mastelas going from 148-150) not to mention a leveling build is completely different from a woe/pvp build.

The point I was trying to get across was that suras are not pre-renewal champs. In fact, they are a huge improvement and shouldn't be played like champs. You get amazing offensive skills that don't rely on god items and you also have (arguably) the best survivability in the entire game thanks to:
1) snap
2) pneuma (probably the best defensive skill in renewal)
3) great HP mod (with 100-110 base vit easily fitting into builds)
4) a couple of really strong disables


The renewal classes aren't NEARLY as unbalanced as the people on these forums are making them out to be. I think these issues are more closely related to the partying/maps/monsters and don't warrant all the skill balancing that is being cried for:

We have the same maps, the same monsters, the same AI and there aren't any good options for parties working together using their new skills right now. I'd like some more maps similar to bio 3 (yeah i know the current bio3 exp is a joke and nobody would ever level there as it is) that actually have hard monsters and allow big parties where not everyone is a killer to pull rates comparable to soloing on a killing class. We should have different maps like this for all level tiers.

If the leveling wasn't so monotonous and you could actually party, more people would probably be excited/have fun leveling up so that they could get stronger and use their new skills rather than see them as being out of reach and just complain, give up, make uneducated requests for buffs/nerfs, etc. I think not reaching the limit of your character's potential skill-wise right away is actually a really good feature that gives players an incentive to level other than more hp/sp/aura (this incentive didn't exist before renewal) and the more linear exp table fits perfectly with this.
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#67 pomdjyer

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Posted 12 November 2010 - 01:36 AM

Lol well ymir is a bit easier too level but im gonna shut my mouth anynways. The point is if you ever go too valk, look at how many suras there are vs every other class. The fact that there so hard too play without god items or extremley great gear is pretty lame.


so... you'd be level 104 on ymir instead of 103 on valk?

Nice!!!!!!! at least you have a good "input" in this thread.

reasoning with these sort of noobs is really pointless, but fun as hell. Keep up the good work.
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#68 Miii

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Posted 12 November 2010 - 08:00 PM

Kaden win as always :P

Edited by Miii, 12 November 2010 - 08:00 PM.

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#69 MagicHands

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 07:22 PM

Ok the simple fact that you have alot more access too better gear and you have no exp loss along with more access too gear.....thanks for that last piece of input. And Kaden There not Balanced what so ever. are they better than most at 150 definetly...But its so crazy too get them too 150 that most people are even discouraged too try and when you get lag and 3% exp loss on valk as where you dont on ymir things add up along with the natural 150% exp bonus. Come play on valk before you talk about how easy it is too level.
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#70 heyxsean

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 09:02 PM

Ok the simple fact that you have alot more access too better gear and you have no exp loss along with more access too gear.....thanks for that last piece of input. And Kaden There not Balanced what so ever. are they better than most at 150 definetly...But its so crazy too get them too 150 that most people are even discouraged too try and when you get lag and 3% exp loss on valk as where you dont on ymir things add up along with the natural 150% exp bonus. Come play on valk before you talk about how easy it is too level.


You do not know how to use "too" lol. One "O" too many.
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#71 Myzery

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 03:04 AM

Ok the simple fact that you have alot more access too better gear and you have no exp loss along with more access too gear.....thanks for that last piece of input. And Kaden There not Balanced what so ever. are they better than most at 150 definetly...But its so crazy too get them too 150 that most people are even discouraged too try and when you get lag and 3% exp loss on valk as where you dont on ymir things add up along with the natural 150% exp bonus. Come play on valk before you talk about how easy it is too level.


Tard
He played on Valk way before you even thought about it.
Use insurance if playing on a free server is that much of a burden on you.
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#72 Hrishi

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 03:14 AM

Ok the simple fact that you have alot more access too better gear and you have no exp loss along with more access too gear.....thanks for that last piece of input. And Kaden There not Balanced what so ever. are they better than most at 150 definetly...But its so crazy too get them too 150 that most people are even discouraged too try and when you get lag and 3% exp loss on valk as where you dont on ymir things add up along with the natural 150% exp bonus. Come play on valk before you talk about how easy it is too level.

Fairly certain he had(has?) more classes than you ever did on valk :unsure:.

Not sure if it's been pointed out but Lightning Ride has a mistake in saying it's 80 SP when it only costs 30 SP.
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#73 MangoKing

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 06:52 AM

The description of Earth Shaker is wrong, it says its 11x11 but at level 2 it only affects a 5x5 radius or so. I'm assuming it will be 11x11 by lvl 5, but could we get a accurate description of this skill?

I can only guess it will go something like this

Level 1 -> 3x3
Level 2 -> 5x5
Level 3 -> 7x7
Level 4 -> 9x9
Level 5 -> 11x11

Also..

Gentle Touch:Cure does not cure GX's Oblivion Curse. The description states that it will cure some GX poisons. Could we get a list of which poisons it actually cures? (Though if Oblivion Curse can't be cured when another Sura cast GT:Cure on you, its pretty useless against GX poisons in general because I assume most GX's will be using Oblivion Curse in WoE)

Edited by MangoKing, 15 November 2010 - 07:04 AM.

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#74 RegalPrime

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 10:12 AM

^ Those in game descriptions are almost all wrong on sura.
Even at lvl 1 earthshaker, it does 200% damage (not 100%).

To tell you the truth, its extremely hard to figure out what skills I want to get just because I have no clue what the formulas are. When I actually test a skill, it ends up being totally different (damage wise) to what I expected.

Edited by RegalPrime, 15 November 2010 - 10:13 AM.

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#75 Litta

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 11:52 AM

Ok the simple fact that you have alot more access too better gear and you have no exp loss along with more access too gear.....thanks for that last piece of input. And Kaden There not Balanced what so ever. are they better than most at 150 definetly...But its so crazy too get them too 150 that most people are even discouraged too try and when you get lag and 3% exp loss on valk as where you dont on ymir things add up along with the natural 150% exp bonus. Come play on valk before you talk about how easy it is too level.


http://ropd.info/?na...el&dir=desc&s=3

Hmm... It definitely doesn't look like he's played on Valk before 8D
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