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#26 Heimdallr

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 10:01 PM

I'm not sure if the keep the gear on death would be viable, I didn't consider it a mount I considered it your super hero form instead.
Certainly many of the mado skills will need to at least do what they say. I haven't seen this much info regarding the axe stuff before, so this is very good feedback for that.

The upgrading thing is frustrating, but they really aren't smiths anymore from a storyline aspect. But I do know that there are more 3rd class skills and skill point expansion planned for the future so I believe in the long run that issue will resolve itself.
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#27 Sera

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 10:42 PM

Also, I've just recently begun to notice this, but Axe Tornado becomes severely underpowered as you become higher level.

It's a great leveling skill for like low level 100s, but once you get to 130 or so, it's just not viable to kill monsters with like 70k HP by dealing 5k damage to them at the rate the skill can be used at.

This is also why the skill is not useful for damage in WoE.

--------------------

Also, the mech's Super Hero form is about as Super as Super Novices are. Please don't delegate us to that. I would like to see it considered a serious class able to stand toe-to-toe with the other third classes. Having the gear lost on death really kills a lot of the WoE potential of the class because you die A LOT in WoE.

--------------------

Regarding more skills / points:

Why didn't they release this info before hand? Here we are all complaining about renewal being broken, and they plan to expand it in the future but don't tell us? >.>

Edited by Sera, 04 November 2010 - 11:04 PM.

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#28 Clogon

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:53 AM

Aside from what has been already pointed out:

Pile Bunker (The skill not the item) says that it can remove Kyrie. However due to how it is programmed it cannot do so since Kyrie will make the skill miss!
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#29 Taper

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 12:26 PM

I'm not sure if the keep the gear on death would be viable, I didn't consider it a mount I considered it your super hero form instead.


Think about it, being unable to keep mado suit on death is a major issue in certain situations like instance dungeons (like ET and Nyd) and spots that have limited access like Thanatos Tower and DG in which they require you to be either in a party or to have a specific number of players before you can go in. If we lose our mado on death in those spots, it's an major issue becuase you would have to leave those maps and return to Prontera to get the suit; there can potentially be problems in getting back to those maps. Why would a party inside those maps, like TT for example, have to waste their time going back to "pick" us up?

I consider it a mount, regardless. If you're going to see it as super hero form, then at least make it possible for us to "resummon" it regardless of where we are. After all, super-heros have alternate identities and can switch beteen both forms at will. Or seeing how there have been some Gundam references in RO lately, think of it as them being summonable mechas like in those Mecha-themed anime where heros can call out for their mechas to show up for them to board.;
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#30 Taper

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 12:29 PM

Also, just FYI, Pile Bunker gets nerfed in a future update due to it being a level 3 weapon. Level 4 weapons will have a special enchantment NPC that can add bonuses of up to like +12 ATK +1 Str onto them.


Not to mention that you need a Brocca, which is a level four weapon, in order to make a level... three weapon? Something doesn't add up right here.
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#31 Brindizer

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:27 PM

Domon Kasshu simply has to snap his fingers and yell, "COME OUT, GUNDAM!" to summon his 'Magic Gear' Then suddenly a national monument of some kind (Statue of Liberty, Roman Colosseum, etc) explodes to reveal his Gundam. If he had to run back to Japan every time he needed his Gundam it wouldn't be nearly as cool.

There is a script in the game to say a certain phrase to get a certain result (Dear Angel, can you hear my voice?), so why can't we do something similar? It could perhaps be a quest skill, "Mado Summoning." With a cast/cool time, it would be certainly more usable (and more awesome) than it is now. Not that saying a phrase is required, as it could easily be an On/Off skill.

Edited by Brindizer, 05 November 2010 - 05:28 PM.

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#32 Sera

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 06:32 PM

I wanted to elaborate on my comments about Axe Tornado a bit, since reading everything I've said on this page seems to contradict where I said there was nothing wrong with it on the first page.

Axe Tornado is an excellent skill at the level you get it at, and for the level that it is obtained at, there is really no reason to change it.
The problem is that it doesn't scale well, and the higher tier axe skills are utility skills rather than damage skills.

An example of a skill that scales fairly well would be High Speed Cart Ram. It's a skill with a lot of levels, and a pretty heavy dependence on gear, endow, stat build, etc. This may not be in line with the developer's plan for skills, but it is nice from a player's point of view because you have complete freedom to adjust the damage of the skill within your means.

Axe Tornado always seems to deal around 5,000 damage per hit (Yellow number). The range is actually more like 4k ~ 6k damage, but my point is, it's really difficult to get the skill to deal more damage beyond that. You can hit on the higher end of the range by using the smith buffs or an endow.

The problem with an endow is that most renewal paradigm maps have mixed monster elements, so while you could hit for 6k on some, you'd be hitting for 3k on the others.

I know you can wind endow to make the skill stronger, but basically the damage that is added is about the same as a proper element endow on a monster that wind would hit neutrally on. Against water monsters, this is spectacular, unfortunately there are no water element maps at the level the skill is useful at that are mobby enough to justify using it. I tried using it in ID3, but the mob density was so low that HSCR was more efficient 90% of the time. I tried in ID2, but I get penalized for most of the monsters there, and axe mech has no good way to deal ranged damage, so I can't deal with Gazeti.

tl;dr: Axe Tornado itself does not need to be fixed in my opinion, but there needs to be a 'follow-up' skill to it. Perhaps something like Axe Hurricane, pre-requisites would be some of the axe skills, and the skill would maybe have a slightly larger AoE, perhaps one cell or so, but would deal 500% damage plus the ATK bonus from Axe Tornado.

---------------

Please implement some new level 4 axes for us that are not obtainable only from MVPs no one kills. Our realistic choice of weapons are either Hurricane Fury or Giant Axe, all the other pre-renewal Axes having pretty low attack power for two-handed axes. It's not so much that the weapons themselves are unobtainable or unaffordable, it's just that there's hardly ever any on the market. A good Cardo or Hunting Spear (Final weapons for RK/RG) will cost around the same thing as a Hurricane Fury or a Giant Axe, but they're actually available on the market.

I've been looking to buy a Hurricane Fury for like a week now and I haven't been able to find one for sale.

The only other Axe that really measures up is the Doomslayer, but the 2x SP cost basically kills it as a viable weapon for anyone.

----------------

Pile Bunker is really sort of a useless weapon to be honest. I made one based on the jRO and kRO people all using them, but I'm really disappointed with it.
1. It is a mace, so I can't use it with any of the axe skills.
2. It is a level 3 weapon that requires an extremely difficult to obtain level 4 weapon to create. Level 3 weapons will be pretty undesirable compared to a level 4 weapon once we get the enchantment patch.
3. It is not slotted. Maybe slots aren't worth quite as much as they used to be, but even with that massive attack power, it is still outdamaged by a Giant Axe for High Speed Cart Ram.

-----------------

Also, perhaps I could buy that the mado gear is supposed to be our 'super form,' but the thing about that is that all of the mado skills are in reality, pretty anemic compared to the other third class skills. There's no Clashing Spiral or Dragon's Breath, there's no Hell's Gate, there's no Manhole, there's no Overbrand or Defending Aura, there's no Coluseo Heal, it's just sort of a hodgepodge of mediocre, but not necessarily bad, skills that leaves the class completely without a strong focus or role.

In MMOs, you have four main kinds of characters in my opinion: Damage dealers, clerics, tanks, and debuffers.

The mado suit doesn't really fall into any of those roles. It has a small part of each of those roles, just enough to possibly be considered for the role, but ultimately, never enough to fulfill any role.

Perhaps the intent of the class was to make it so that it would be able to function well in any situation?

In reality though, like I said, it just comes off as anemic and underpowered in every situation.

Edited by Sera, 05 November 2010 - 06:34 PM.

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#33 ZeroTigress

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:38 PM

I'm not sure if the keep the gear on death would be viable, I didn't consider it a mount I considered it your super hero form instead.

For a superhero form, you have to admit it's pretty retarded that you're stripped of your "uniform" when you die and have to warp back to a city in order to wear it again.
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#34 Iseal

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:50 PM

Give Pilebunker the ability to crush the rest of sader def buffs (Shield Reflect, Defending Aura), or maybe let it deal more damage through Sacrifice, then Mechanics will have a important use. Historically, people stopped wearing heavy armor once technology caught up enough to make a portable way to break it (strong melee weapons, bows strong enough to pierce armor, good guns...), so why not let Mechanics serve the anti-tank role? Follow it up with Analyze, and you can take them down easier for a brief period. Maybe even give a bonus to dmg when hitting a frozen/Stone Cursed enemy with the skill? It's a huge robot, and you build huge powered armors to apply more strength, right? Would also be nice if Vulcan Arm did 3 hits visually, but still counted for the same damage or less, so as to give it a better role as a lockdown skill. Overheating could prevent poisons and freeze type stat effects, and turn stone curse back to the old way (I've noticed you instantly turn to stone now, am I just seeing things?), as well as add a small fixed cast. I always looked at Mechanics as a revolutionary class attemping to overturn the old way of playing, but not fully refined yet so it still has errors in the mado gear's programming (weird skills, overheat, harder to get after death (but not THAT hard...)).
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#35 RegalPrime

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 08:19 PM

Im ok with loosing mado on death, but they need to add in a "mado repair" skill that uses either a certain item or a high amount of SP (long cast time too) to repair and remount your gear.
I dunno 300sp, 10s cast time, 1x Repair Kit (cost 50k?)

Axe skills are just unimaginative. They seemed to have used all their time thinking about mado gear skills and then threw these other skills in for kicks. I like the idea of having mado as your "almost perma mount" and be able to use all your old skills when in your mech.
I was a fan of the tomahawk's boomerang, because of the spammability (ya it was only 100% damage), but wow the cool down is just nuts on the mechanic's boomerang.

::EDIT::
So I was down in ein dungeon2 screwing around and I noticed I actually missed a monster. Did they change how Weaponry Research works?
The person above mentioned that it was not giving the +Hit bonus, but there was always that +20 Never Miss Damage too. I didnt seem to have that down there.

Edited by RegalPrime, 05 November 2010 - 08:59 PM.

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#36 Sera

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 08:36 PM

Tomahawk Throwing is what I too had in mind for the Axe Boomerang skill.
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#37 Ultimate

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 02:28 PM

The pile bunker really should be usable with all the skills. Man I have endless amounts of complaints of the mechanic versus other classes but I'll try to organize them. I don't know if I can say anything that Sera hasn't said.

One very, very, extremely irritating aspect of HSCR in renewal is a certain glitch that seems to occur in mobs? I haven't quite figured out how to explain it...I'll be in a mob, or even a single enemy a lot of the time, and I'm trying over and over to HSCR and it just isn't working. I can click the monster to hit it normally so I know I'm right beside it, but when I HSCR it just doesn't do ANYTHING. So I have to move a cell then try again. It seems like it's due to position lag but I'm close enough to punch. Extremely annoying, anyone else experiencing this? It really sucks up a lot of resources to move around, keep using whites, dying, etc.
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#38 Ramen

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 03:02 PM

Going with what Heim said, if they're no longer smiths, but mechanics, why not give them a skill or an item that will allow them to "rebuild" their MADO gear? Not sure why that wouldn't be doable. >_>
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#39 RegalPrime

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 09:43 PM

I got to thinking about these 2 skills and it kinda bothers me.

Axe Boomerang - Hits at range AND knocks them back
Power Swing - Damage + Stun and a loooowww chance of doing Axe Boomerang

To me it kinda makes more sense that power swing would be some sort of knockback skill (kinda like smite) and then after you knock them back you have a X% chance of tossing an Axe Boomerang after them.
Boomerang does get annoying at times, because when i use it, its because I want that monster to come to me, not to push it away another 5 squares. Even if I did want to get some monsters away from me, the aftercast is so brutal you can only get one monster away at a time.

Im not sure the reasoning behind powerswing. HSCR does a lot better job at stunning (not to mention the damage). The additional Boomerang is unreliable.
If anything, they need to up the chance of the Boomerang to at least 50% at lvl 5.
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#40 Sera

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 11:40 PM

Please recheck the skill Stealth Field to make sure that it is working as intended. I cannot really say how to 'fix' this skill as I am not sure if it is currently having the intended effects. It does not cloak the caster.

Please recheck the skill Neutral Barrier to make sure that it is working as intended. Despite the in-game description, there are reports that it currently has the effect of granting all players, caster, enemy, and allies, who are within the field a 95% chance to avoid all close range physical damage. If this is the intended effect, please update the in-game description of the skill.

Please recheck the skill Repair to make sure it is functioning properly in relation to the Repair A, B, and C items.

I say "Please recheck these skills" because I'm really not entirely sure how they currently work in-game or how they are intended to work, but I've read reports that they are not working properly.

The Cooldown skill does not seem to have any effect.

Suicidal Destruction, Magnetic Field, Neutral Barrier, and Stealth Field all have cooldowns that are much too long to be practical.

Pile Bunker (skill) does not nullify Kyrie Eleison because this skill causes it to miss. It should also be rechecked with Auto Guard to ensure that it properly removes it if Auto-Guard procs.

Edited by Sera, 07 November 2010 - 11:46 PM.

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#41 Asuki

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 02:45 AM

There is alot of things that are wrong with mechs


First off we went from the highest single target dps in game to nothing at all in damage compare to the other third classes

specific complains:

1) in mado suite you cannot use any of your previous skills , that doesn't make any sense at all why don't you stop all the other classes from using there trans and first class skills, and as you mentioned mado costume is suposed to be like our super hero costume, last time i checked super heros get stronger, not weaker and completly forget how to use all there previous skills. Its our super hero suite if we where superman but on a planet made out of kryptonite >>

2)overheating - this is completly retarded, eather remove overheating or give us counters to see how much we are overheating and make emergency cooldown actually remove it

3)why do genetics get better carts skill then we do? Give us the + extra weight to cart since alot of our skills revolve around cart weight. Last time I checked mechanics are alot better with mechanical things like carts, cannons then genetics >.>

4) make pile bunker a lv 4 weapon, give it a slot. No reason at all a 3rd class weapon is lv 3 without any slots

5) axes skills are underwhelming, they need major buffs, also make it so we can use axe skills with a mace

6) weapon research doesn't give +20 hit or +20 damage anymore? why the sudden nerf

7) axe mastery , 10 3rd job skill points for +50 damage and +30 hit ? Are u serious? take away 20 damage and 20 hit from weapon research and then give us a mastery at third skill that pretty much does the same thing? 10 skill points is really precious for a 3rd class, no one wants to waste it on a mastery

8) FAW are useless, eather make them pets like homuculous or simply remove them from the game, or make them much stronger and longer lasting, so that removing them actually because a priority. Currently there just a joke


yes it does sound like a huge rant, but personally i feel that mechs got shafted by gravity big time. You can check with your counter part at jro, the only 2 classes without any banned skills are.... mechs and guillotine crosses, i wonder why.... maybe its because all our skill are pretty underpowered to start with, even compared to some 2nd class skills
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#42 Taper

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 02:44 PM

Look at Genetics/Bio/Alch class; they have Homus, which are basically artifical creatures and can be powerful in their own right. Giving Mechanics a robot version was a good idea, but they're joke compared to Homus. And to top it off, there are already plans for more advanced versions of them while we're shafted with Juperos knock-offs. They should have their own customizable AI and actual useful skills.

Edited by Taper, 08 November 2010 - 02:45 PM.

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#43 Ultimate

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 03:37 PM

Pile bunker [1]
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#44 Asuki

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 05:40 PM

oh also


cart boost for us is a really really bad version of genetics cart boost, should make both the same
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#45 Taper

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 06:48 PM

Nope, Genetics got the IMPROVED version of OUR cart boost. We had it since MS days, yet how did a class that specializes in maniuplation of chemicals and artifical animals manage develop an improved version of our skill (which remains unimproved), and even manage to create some impressive attacking abilities with it? Are we, the Mechanics, with our forte in technology and metalwork, so inept at improving own carts? That is soooo sad...

It doesn't matter if our cart boost is buffed to be same as Genetics' cart boost really, unfortunately. If Genetics lose their boost in PvP/WoE, it doesn't affect them much, but we lose our main killing DPS power.
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#46 SamuelAdams

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 07:20 PM

Axe Tornado, Axe Boomerang: Should allow the use of maces (if Axe Training already does...)

Why?
I have the feeling the pile bunker is supposed to be used with the mado (even a mado skill named it), and not for axe skills, and that is why it is a mace...
It's like asking atroce blade to be used on spear only skills or something...

Oh homons aren't as good anymore if you are comparing the two classes, nerfed MATK, and max level 99. (Like Mercs.)
Before, trans blacksmith would always beat trans alchemist 1vs1.
Part of the trade-off having cart boost as 3rd class also means less of the 49 points to spend on 3rd class skills...

And, I agree Pile Bunker [1] plz. ^^

And, I think it would be cool if they give alchemist 3rd a new homon later, should give mechanics like a robot version type of pet... xD

As for the mado suit, should make it like the rangers warg. They can't use any skills except for a few while on it also but they can get on and off it at least. (W/e you know what I'm saying here)

Edited by SamuelAdams, 08 November 2010 - 10:00 PM.

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#47 Clogon

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 09:48 PM

Would you people stop saying that +hit from Weapon Research doesn't work and actually test it please? I am tired of people saying "it doesn't work just because it doesn't show up on your Status Window". Did you know that Vulture Eye's +10 Hit does show up on the status window but it still works perfectly fine?

Mastery attack may no longger bypass flee and def but it is affected by Skill mods and buffs now! Meaning Over thrust will increase Masteries same as HSCR.
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#48 Sera

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 10:02 PM

Would you people stop saying that +hit from Weapon Research doesn't work and actually test it please? I am tired of people saying "it doesn't work just because it doesn't show up on your Status Window". Did you know that Vulture Eye's +10 Hit does show up on the status window but it still works perfectly fine?

Mastery attack may no longger bypass flee and def but it is affected by Skill mods and buffs now! Meaning Over thrust will increase Masteries same as HSCR.


How can we test this without resetting our characters?
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#49 Emichio

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 10:22 PM

How can we test this without resetting our characters?


This is not the place to ask such thing.. but.. if you need 250 hit to hit something 100%, you can try with 230 and the skill at lvl 10~
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#50 Clogon

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 10:27 PM

How can we test this without resetting our characters?



Yes why wouldn't you be able to?

If you have 300 hit and max lvl weapon research, find a monster that requires 310 hit and see if you miss or not. Or if you can't find a minster get a friend with AGI and flee gear to match what you need.
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