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Rogue Feedback: Suggestions


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#1 Njoror

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 10:25 AM

Hello.

 

This topic will be used to collect Rogue class suggestions.

 

Please use the form below when submitting balance issues.

 

Remember, the more detail, image, or video that can be provided, the quicker these issues can be addressed.

 

Character Name:

Suggestion Type: (Example: Skill, Stats, Animation, etc)

Suggestion Description:

Video/Image Link (if applicable):


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#2 Strobe

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 04:26 AM

Here it is, my long list of suggestions for the rogue skills. Bear with me as I break everything down and if there are any feedbacks, please do tell.

 

Character Name: Strobes

 

Suggestion Type: Changes

 

Suggestion Description:

 

 

From the THIEF skill tree:

 

Deadly Blow (For Rogues): Make base damage a little higher than our bread and butter (double atk) or increase the % in damage it gives per combo point

Cross Impact: Useless for both rogues and sins. 1 skill point is too much to waste end game. Would be better off replacing with hiding exceed or totally remove it

Poisoning weapon: The DoT it gives is based on str/attack. No point in investing since str is useless with the game's current state.

Combo Training: Rogues are dependent in generating combo points to dish out damage, but I don't get why our 9% combo mastery procs more often than this 15% to add 1 additional combo point. Something is wrong here.



From the ROGUE skill tree:


Smoke Bomb: 3-5 second fade time after using skill ends prematurely when attack comes from DoT. Since this skill is purely for survivability, you can throw a little speed increase for a couple of seconds to have time to escape potential threat

Dual Stab: Detect weakness does NOT work and does NOT give additional damage when DEADLY BLOW is used. Base damage is too low for a level 10 skill.

Combo Mastery: This is basically the skill which determines our class and why we are considered a DPS in the first place. It's not consistent, it's a gamble, and this is what makes us unique to other DPS. Having this proc a lot would be too OP, but the current 9% is a bit low considering that this is the skill that makes or breaks us. We are too dependent on this 9% and I think that it's a bit low. I will not give out numbers but I am definitely sure that 9% isn't enough.

Cresent Moon: Fracture effect is enough to compensate for the low damage it gives at LV 10 but the time it takes to rack up 5 combo points to achieve the best effect is a long process considering the hit/dodge rate we have now.

Gangster Paradise: Again, gaining 5 combo points is a long process when you can't hit. 60% hp in 10 seconds is actually reasonable but the cooldown is kinda long, compared to the Assassin's Grimtooth healing effect, Gangster Paradise is way behind. Also, if there are no changes made to gangster paradise, it would be nice if the healing effect from this can proc and stack adrenaline rush instead.

Unstable Doping: I would suggest that Attack Power and Crit procs at the same time since this skill doesn't give any constant buff compared with everyone else. It's unfair for those people you are unlucky to make this proc in the first place. You can lower attack power% or crit% or both

 

Adrenaline Rush from Unstable Doping: Useless skill eversince AOV came up. This skill is ignored mostly on PVE and is only worth it in PVP (same as Cresent Moon), Using Dayr potions will give you around 1044 attack Power that actually adds just under around 30-100 extra damage.
 

 

All of the above are mostly based in PVP. We all know we don't have trouble soloing anything at the moment (well I dont) and I don't think that my suggestions would give us a significant edge to other classes. I made it so that if we ever lack something else, we could easily change it. I wouldn't want to go overboard and take the blame for making our class OP and I definitely don't wanna hear another class QQing for this.



Balancing Issues:

Change class bonus to HIT/CRIT/ATK POWER instead of DODGE. A DPS invests on agi for HIT, NOT DODGE. (Apparently, AOV made everyone else invest in agi)
Other DPS class bonus compliments their damage potential: sins/rangers gets hit per agi, cres/wiz gets attack power per int, etc


Fix Hit/Dodge problems that were reported by most players over 9000 times - This is the key and the first step to solving balancing issues


Stuff I would like to see:

Less baggy pants, more slim ones like COA/Chaos for rogues


Less half-naked, belly button flashing rogues, more Abs like AOD
 

WHY THE HELL are Osiris gears PINK?


Edited by Strobe, 13 March 2014 - 05:05 AM.

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#3 IchiNiSan

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 11:44 PM

Character Name: DeathRiddle (PVE build but I duel a lot with that PVE build)

Suggestion Type: Skill/Animation

 

 

First of all, I want to express my opinion in Strobe's comment.

(@Strobe: The only thing I see here is you QQing too much and u want to make Rogue a God, better in PVP/PVE than any other class.)


Character Name: Strobes

 

Suggestion Type: Changes

 

Suggestion Description:

 

 

From the THIEF skill tree:

 

Deadly Blow (For Rogues): Make base damage a little higher than our bread and butter (double atk) or increase the % in damage it gives per combo point -  You want rogue become GOD? It's totally fine as ksing skill/damage dealing skill when MD is on cd.

Cross Impact: Useless for both rogues and sins. 1 skill point is too much to waste end game. Would be better off replacing with hiding exceed or totally remove it - Agree.

Poisoning weapon: The DoT it gives is based on str/attack. No point in investing since str is useless with the game's current state - General issue as most classes' DoT.

Combo Training: Rogues are dependent in generating combo points to dish out damage, but I don't get why our 9% combo mastery procs more often than this 15% to add 1 additional combo point. Something is wrong here. - Normal for me



From the ROGUE skill tree:


Smoke Bomb: 3-5 second fade time after using skill ends prematurely when attack comes from DoT. Since this skill is purely for survivability, you can throw a little speed increase for a couple of seconds to have time to escape potential threat - You want rogue become GOD? This skill is totally fine, u have 3 seconds of taking no damage after using it and stay in hidden, that 3s is enough to save your life in both PVE/PVP, speed increase is no needed here.

Dual Stab: Detect weakness does NOT work and does NOT give additional damage when DEADLY BLOW is used. Base damage is too low for a level 10 skill.

Combo Mastery: This is basically the skill which determines our class and why we are considered a DPS in the first place. It's not consistent, it's a gamble, and this is what makes us unique to other DPS. Having this proc a lot would be too OP, but the current 9% is a bit low considering that this is the skill that makes or breaks us. We are too dependent on this 9% and I think that it's a bit low. I will not give out numbers but I am definitely sure that 9% isn't enough. - You want rogue become GOD? That's 9% percent of having change to 1 shot most ppl in this game using SB + MD and rogue is still fine even when CM not proc. I have to use Deadly blow alot in raid for not wasting CM when it proc often.

Cresent Moon: Fracture effect is enough to compensate for the low damage it gives at LV 10 but the time it takes to rack up 5 combo points to achieve the best effect is a long process considering the hit/dodge rate we have now. - You want rogue become GOD? Why are u QQing even with this skill?

Gangster Paradise: Again, gaining 5 combo points is a long process when you can't hit. 60% hp in 10 seconds is actually reasonable but the cooldown is kinda long, compared to the Assassin's Grimtooth healing effect, Gangster Paradise is way behind. Also, if there are no changes made to gangster paradise, it would be nice if the healing effect from this can proc and stack adrenaline rush instead. - You want rogue become GOD?

Unstable Doping: I would suggest that Attack Power and Crit procs at the same time since this skill doesn't give any constant buff compared with everyone else. It's unfair for those people you are unlucky to make this proc in the first place. You can lower attack power% or crit% or both - You want rogue become GOD?

 

Adrenaline Rush from Unstable Doping: Useless skill eversince AOV came up. This skill is ignored mostly on PVE and is only worth it in PVP (same as Cresent Moon), Using Dayr potions will give you around 1044 attack Power that actually adds just under around 30-100 extra damage. - You want rogue become GOD? QQ even with 1000+ attack power?

 

All of the above are mostly based in PVP. We all know we don't have trouble soloing anything at the moment (well I dont) and I don't think that my suggestions would give us a significant edge to other classes. I made it so that if we ever lack something else, we could easily change it. I wouldn't want to go overboard and take the blame for making our class OP and I definitely don't wanna hear another class QQing for this. - I'll blame u if they are stupid enough to take your words and make Rogue OP.

 

SUM UP:

Rogue is a class that made for more PVE than PVP! If you want to be OP in PvP, go for Sin.

(Red text is my suggestion.)

 

Cross Impact: Useless skill for both rogue/sin. You should make it more useful like +2 combo points when use or Apply poisoning weapon effect on hit

 

Poisoning weapon: DoT is too low, same issue as some other classes' DoT. You should double the DoT effect at least.

 

Dark Illusion: This skill is buggy, the animation takes time for a Rogue to teleport behind the target. If your target is fast and get too far from its spot when the skill cast, you will be bugged, can not do anything but to relog or go suicide if you are in Colo. You should change this skill's animation, make the animation instantly.

 

Mark of Death/Dirty Plan: The animation of those skills are too long. It's ok in PvE but in PvP it's not good. If you want to use DP then cast MoD on your enemy, it'll take you 4-5s and, or you want to use DP then GP, i'll take you 3-4s too and u'll be dead before GP starts healing you. Since they are instant cast, they shouldn't take that long. You should change those skills' animation, make them shorter like 1s each.

 

Moonlight Dance:  Look at the SS, MD crit in hiding state without MOD: 100k damage on a lv 20 sorc (should be 140k with MOD). Even without hiding, it will crit for 50k. I have a small chance of 1 shotting most players (some good geared war/knight/bear will survive it though) and 1 shotting skill shouldn't exist in any game.

Same for Monk/Wiz/War/Cres with their 1 shotting skills. You should find a way to balance those skills somehow. RVic4pl.jpg

 

BUT, everything is still messed up with current Hit/Dodge formula. Please fix this first.

 

 


Edited by IchiNiSan, 13 March 2014 - 11:50 PM.

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#4 Strobe

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 01:56 AM

Hi Ichinisan, I just want you to know that all those suggestions are basically compilations with little modifications from other players on the feedback thread.

 

These are merely suggestions and not my final report for our class.

 

It would be best if you try and be specific on giving feedbacks/suggestions rather than spamming "You Want Rogue Become God?"

 

I suggest you read that cresent moon suggestion a few more times so you'll actually understand why I it's there.

 

And please try to read the feedback thread so you'll have an idea on what most of the rogues in the server want for our class.


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#5 IchiNiSan

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 02:38 AM

Idc about where did u get those ideas from. You posted them here, that means u want them. Most of those suggestions for skills are about QQing to make rogue OP, not to re-balance or fix them.

 

I wonder where the hell are all good/unbiased rogues didn't nominate themselves for VCR.


Edited by IchiNiSan, 14 March 2014 - 02:51 AM.

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#6 Strobe

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 03:15 AM

I am merely adjusting our skills with the current state of the game and trying to give a slight boost to be on par with other classes. You should read the other class thread as well and start from there.

 

Rogues are not about Combo Mastery-Smoke Bomb-Moonlight Dance all day. If everything gets fixed and rogues end up with an edge then I can always pin-point the things that needs nerfing.

 

Calling me bias and not considering others opinion is being biased and selfish itself.

 

Nominating myself does not mean that I want rogues to be OP and be better than any class out there. It just shows that I got the balls to deal with criticism and people like you.

and FYI, If you don't care about others' opinion then we are sure as hell don't care about yours. But sadly, I am bound to take anyone (including people like you) coz I am required to.


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#7 IchiNiSan

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 08:07 AM

If I don't care about your opinion, I wouldn't comment on every of your suggestion, agreed with u on some suggestions, about some skills that need to be fixed, but most of them are about how to make rogue OP as I see it.

In my eyes, you are just like some ppl I know in game, cant stop whining about how broken their class is while there are so many good (not p2w) players of that class are still doing fine out there.

 


Edited by IchiNiSan, 14 March 2014 - 08:13 AM.

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#8 Strobe

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 09:18 AM

Both your post are contradicting. First you said you don't care where I got those ideas from, and now you're telling me you wouldn't comment if you didn't care. Make up your mind.

 

Like I said, those things aren't there to make rogues OP. They are there to be on PAR with other classes since obviously, most of them are OP and a few of them are noticeably nerfed.

 

If I may suggest, you should play your class some more and compare it to other DPS classes. Like I said, our class isn't about just CM-SB-MD all day.

 

Let me give you a scenario:

 

Duel an assassin or a ranger. Say, you got your combo mastery and hiding. How will you even have the chance to catch them and use your skill when you can't even outrun them?

 

or

 

Say your dirty plan, smoke bomb, moonlight dance are all on cooldown. Would you rather be a sitting duck and wait til your skills reset while they pound you with 320%++ constant damage, or try to fight back with your 250% double attack?

 

or

 

When you painfully wait for 22 seconds to use your gangster paradise just to heal while an assassin is pounding you with grimtooth and heals himself constantly?

 

I don't mean to sound rude but I think you lack knowledge about the rogue class. People who think rogues are only good for their 1-hit skill needs to learn more about them. And while you're at it, you should check on other classes as well.

Stop bullying and testing your maximum damage on a sorc and learn your class some more.

 

Oh, and in my eyes, you're the only one crying about this. Like I said 9890832 times, this is merely my suggestions and it doesn't mean it's final. I still need the consent of other rogues. (The rogues that actually gave brilliant ideas to put all these through, rather than QQing all day)


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#9 Quinntto

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 02:58 PM

Character Name: you all know. It's me Quinntto

Suggestion: Agreeing with some of Strobes' ideas + my own about skill tree and bugs

 

Strobes, I took your recommendation to explore my rogue more, and I did. I have been constantly participating in WoE, and I have agreed that some of your suggestions make sense.

 

1. Yes, Rogues need to be able to generate more combo points or spend less, IF AND ONLY IF, hit-dodge rate is never going to be fixed.

2. Because it is highly likely that hit-dodge rate will be broken FOREVER, let's just make rogues' Agi into 3 hit and 3 crit.

3. Smoke bomb is just fine. 3 seconds are more than enough to survive a bit longer. I don't think Rogues are meant to chase people. Can't change that.

4. Unstable doping is just fine. It is unstable after all.

5. DoT sucks, well I think it should be because of useless Phys. Attk right now

6. Dark Illusion is bugged when we are trying to hit a target that seems close but actually too far.

7. Rogues' armor designs are EWWWWWWW ugly. hahahaha.

8. (just for Strobes) I tried teleporting to people by doing Hide -> Dark Illu -> Smoke Bomb -> Dark Illu, around 35m in 3-4 seconds, and it worked to chase people. LOL

 

Anyways, I wouldn't want to see Rogue being changed too much. It is a bit harder to pvp with Rogues, but I think that is intended. Rogues kinda look like they're designed for PVE anyways.

 

**** But, if the Devs are DEEPLY IN LOVE WITH WOE, then please read NUMBER 1 AND 2 on my suggestion list ****

 

That is all. All is that. Thank you Strobes and DeathRiddle that posted here, please do not be discouraged by some disagreements and try to focus more on discussing about Rogues, not about the validity and consistency of an argument.

 

 

Quinntto


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#10 Strobe

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 03:56 AM

Character Name: you all know. It's me Quinntto
Suggestion: Agreeing with some of Strobes' ideas + my own about skill tree and bugs

Strobes, I took your recommendation to explore my rogue more, and I did. I have been constantly participating in WoE, and I have agreed that some of your suggestions make sense.

1. Yes, Rogues need to be able to generate more combo points or spend less, IF AND ONLY IF, hit-dodge rate is never going to be fixed.
2. Because it is highly likely that hit-dodge rate will be broken FOREVER, let's just make rogues' Agi into 3 hit and 3 crit.
3. Smoke bomb is just fine. 3 seconds are more than enough to survive a bit longer. I don't think Rogues are meant to chase people. Can't change that.
4. Unstable doping is just fine. It is unstable after all.
5. DoT sucks, well I think it should be because of useless Phys. Attk right now
6. Dark Illusion is bugged when we are trying to hit a target that seems close but actually too far.
7. Rogues' armor designs are EWWWWWWW ugly. hahahaha.
8. (just for Strobes) I tried teleporting to people by doing Hide -> Dark Illu -> Smoke Bomb -> Dark Illu, around 35m in 3-4 seconds, and it worked to chase people. LOL

Anyways, I wouldn't want to see Rogue being changed too much. It is a bit harder to pvp with Rogues, but I think that is intended. Rogues kinda look like they're designed for PVE anyways.

**** But, if the Devs are DEEPLY IN LOVE WITH WOE, then please read NUMBER 1 AND 2 on my suggestion list ****

That is all. All is that. Thank you Strobes and DeathRiddle that posted here, please do not be discouraged by some disagreements and try to focus more on discussing about Rogues, not about the validity and consistency of an argument.


Quinntto


Your first suggestion may actually be a better solution and a temporary band aid in dealing with the current hit/dodge formula. I definitely agree to this.

Your second suggestion though, might bring imbalance coz if this get implemented, we are the only class that will have 2 class bonuses instead of one. We should vote among the 3 stats (Attack Power, Hit, Crit) and decide which is best for our class. Personally, I think Hit is best coz our doping gives the other 2 stats. Having more crit would only make our 1 hitting skill happen frequently.

About Dirty Plan losing cool down: if this happens, then it would mean other cool down reset skills of other classes should drop too for balancing purposes. That would mean more guillotine fists, etc. Too OP

I'm glad you didn't bug out using those dark illusions. I guess it would do for chasing people down but using so much skills just to get close is kinda sad.. Will think of another way to give rogues a better chasing capability.

And I think rogues aren't made for PVE alone. We excel in 1v1 in most cases, but fighting another pure dps class like the ranger and assassin totally puts us in a bad spot
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#11 Quinntto

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 10:29 AM

Your first suggestion may actually be a better solution and a temporary band aid in dealing with the current hit/dodge formula. I definitely agree to this.

Your second suggestion though, might bring imbalance coz if this get implemented, we are the only class that will have 2 class bonuses instead of one. We should vote among the 3 stats (Attack Power, Hit, Crit) and decide which is best for our class. Personally, I think Hit is best coz our doping gives the other 2 stats. Having more crit would only make our 1 hitting skill happen frequently.

About Dirty Plan losing cool down: if this happens, then it would mean other cool down reset skills of other classes should drop too for balancing purposes. That would mean more guillotine fists, etc. Too OP

I'm glad you didn't bug out using those dark illusions. I guess it would do for chasing people down but using so much skills just to get close is kinda sad.. Will think of another way to give rogues a better chasing capability.

And I think rogues aren't made for PVE alone. We excel in 1v1 in most cases, but fighting another pure dps class like the ranger and assassin totally puts us in a bad spot

 

Yes, I would not recommend lowering down any cooldown on any skill. If a particular rogue likes their smoke bomb cooldown to be lower, then that rogue can spend their skill points more on smoke bomb than any other skill.

 

It is sad that in order to chase people, I have to use a couple skills. However, that is why I think we have MOD + Crit 20% extra + Moonlight Dance to make sure they can't even run. This combo is the ideal combo, but the possibility is very low due to hit rate.

 

I bug out by using Dark Illusion during WOE hours and it is frustrating to lose 2 minutes just to fix the bug. Not to mention the dissappearance of Elixir buffs.

 

So, back to my main point:

If the devs decide to rebalance classes by fixing it ONE BY ONE rather than FIXING THE HIT-DODGE RATE IN GENERAL, then let's do it. Let's give the devs more work to do because they asked for it.

 

***** Rogue should have more ways to generate Combo Points or to not spend them by using skills *****

                                                                        OR

***** Rogue's Agi bonus should be changed from 1 Agi = 3 Dodge 3 Crit to 1 Agi =  3 Hit 3 Crit *****

 

Quinntto


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#12 Deyaboo

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 03:01 PM

Character Name: Dyablo

 

First, i want to say that we should not be seen as a pure PvE class who say we are ment to just be good at PvE?,  i think balance mean we should have enought skills to choose between PvP way and PvE or hybrid so shouldnt exist a way to be a perfect PvE/Pvper at the same time, thats why it seems we just want to be OP tying to do everything good with just 1 build, wemust make all the skills usefull enought that we can have  it all at the same time, so the variaty increase as well as the options to make new builds, we need kind of more skills that make a difference between pvp and pve just like CM thats why i propose RO1 skill strip,also rogues supposed to be stalkers so we maybe should have also a skill to chase ppl, well this is just my opinion ^^.

 

Suggestion Type: Skills 

 

Suggestion Description:

Ganster Paradise: Reduce the CD to 30 secs instead of 40 as well as the add a secundary effect, for each in the party add a 3% extra heal, Max extra heal we can get beacause of this effect is 6% so max heal is 18%.

 

Suggestion Type: Skills "Unesable Dopping"

Suggestion Description:

I agree when Quinntto say the name is "Unestable" thats why we get 1 of  2 buffs but as we can notice many skills do not correspond to their names, such as moonlight dance is not a dance bu a single hit, ganster paradise is not about a paradise but a ganster forever alone and so.
 
For this Skill another buff could be implemented such a 20% hit increment, 20% movement speed or even in the near future 20% penetration ,so we can get 1 of those buffs or in rare cases (10% chance) a combination of 2 buffs, this also helps a little with the current hit problem, also this could be rly called "Unestable" XD.

 

Suggestion Type: Skills" Combo Mastery"

Suggestion Description:

UP the Skill to lv 5 and make it 4% per lv, so at the end we can get a 20% adding 2 more points.

 

Suggestion Type: Skills" Dual Stab"

Suggestion Description:

For a lv 10 Skill as Strobe say is not good enought the Dmg nor the Effect, CM does not alot of DMG but is compesated with the effect so for this skill should be something of that kind let the DMG be and up Detect weakness to 4% per lv also make it to not only aply to MD and DB but any DMG skill at the end the effect last just 5 secs OR even add more chance to "Strip" from 15% to 20%(Strip is new skill I propose), so if MD is on CD or we have not 5 combo points for deadly blow this skill could help a little to do DMG.

 

Suggestion Type: Skills "Smoke Bomb"

Suggestion Description:

I havent find myself out of hide because of a DoT but any aoe right after SM use, uncloack, maybe for 3-5 secs depending on the lv skill, we can gain inmunity not a increase of movement speed, since even if u increment ur speed if u got hit by an aoe that will uncloak you. 

 

Suggestion Type: "Moonlight Dance" Skill  and Animation

 

Suggestion Description:

Effect/animation: I like first MD animation even if take 2 much time, I suggest to go back to that animation and make it do 350% dmg pet hit and last hit like actual 1420% i think is balanced since we gain little more Dmg but lose the faster animation in compensation.

 

 

Suggestion Type: Skill Bug "Crescent Moon"

Suggestion Description:

Knock Down bugged, ppl can still run when knocked down and when they wake up they can run as if there is no 70%  movement decrease.

 

Suggestion Type: New Skill "Strip"

Just an extra opinion, in order to separate a little more pvp build and PvE builds, i suggest an extra PvP skill

 

Suggestion Description:

 

Skill Lv 1.

Skill CD:25  sec.

Have a 5% chance to strip Weapon or armor for 10 secs

Skill Lv 2.

Skill CD:20  sec.

Have a 10% chance to strip Weapon or armor for 10 secs 

Skill Lv 3.

Skill CD:15  sec.

Have a 15% chance to strip Weapon or armor for 10 secs 

 

Suggestion Type:Gear

Suggestion Description:

Agree with all Rogues each new gear we get is uglier than the last, cmon I know designers can do better.

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Deyaboo, 15 March 2014 - 03:06 PM.

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#13 Leinzan

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 11:24 AM

Unstable Doping, Adrenaline Rush and any other ATK Boost skill:

Lets be real, the ATK age is well past gone. Now, it is all about Skill Effect Points.

Boosting ATK alone is not good enough, UD and AR together are a 56% extra ATK, but that is equal to not even the shadow of its former efficiency.

 

If Pre-AoV we had 1k ATK and used a Double Attack, we would do 250 damage.

If we had ATK UD and maxed AR that would mean 1560 ATK, which would equate to 390 damage. Exactly a 56% more damage than the initial 250.

 

Now, what do we have currently? 3k ATK for example? that 3k is divided by an aproximate of 15.53 which ends up being 193 SEP, and to that we add up the 800 or so from our weapon.

 

This means we would have 993 SEP and the cuttent Double Attack would do 2482 damage.

 

If we add the 56% boost to those 3k ATK what do we have? 4680, what happens to that? well, its divided by 15.53 too so it ends up being a 301 SEP from that... then we add those 800 points from our weapon, how much do we have?

 

1101 Skill Effect Points, so out Double Attack would do 2752 damage...

 

This means that a 56% extra ATK results in a damage boost of 10%... thats right, 10%, not even a 25%, a whole 56% more ATK is nothing more in the field than 10%.

 

Many people have the opinion that UD is a gamble which makes interesting what you will get next, well, I was of this opinion too up until AoV hit in. It is no longer a Win-Win situation for the Rogue. Right now, if you get the Crit bonus from UD you win, if you get the ATK bonus from UD you lose.

 

 

So my suggestion for this, and for any other skill that is meant to boost the ATK is the next:

 

Suggestion 1 -> Make these skills boost the Skill Effect Points that results after the divide of 15.53 and adding up the weapon points, instead of boosting the ATK.

 

This would mean that the 993 SEP from after conversion would get the 56% bonus, resulting in 1549 SEP, so a Double Attack would do 3872 damage, which would be a real 56% damage boost. This suggestion would save a lot of money on AR for Rogues, since a 30% of SEP is way lower than a 30% of ATK.

 

Bad point about this is that there is little to no difference between an "ATK Boost" and a "Damage Increase".

 

 

Suggestion 2 -> Double the ATK one gets from both UD and AR, (same for all other ATK boost skills), which would be 124% ATK boost altogether.

 

Doing the math with the same 3k ATK, the ATK would rocket up to 6720, which by dividing them with the 15.53, would end up being 432 SEP, added up to the 800 from the weapon, we have 1232 SEP, so a Double Attack would end up doing 3080 damage, which is a measily 24% more but still better than 10%, now isn't it?

 

This second suggestion is meant to give a lot more weight to the stats displayed on the character window rather than the "free" points gotten by default from the weapon and definitely help just as much as a refined weapon.


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#14 Strobe

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 03:01 PM

Hi Leinzan, I totally get your suggestions in changing how the STR stat and attack power works.. Though it would mean that they should also change how it works on other classes as well for balancing purposes. It would be too OP for the warriors if they implement it on the current state. There are 2 issues here as I see it:

1. Hit/dodge rate forces everyone to put stats on agility.

2. Damage is totally based on the min/max damage of your equipped weapon and makes attack power/STR useless.

If they have to fix something, they should definitely fix those 2 first.

I'm not totally against your suggestion though. I'm just thinking about those QQs we'll get from other classes if the change you suggested are only for rogues
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#15 Leinzan

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 07:54 PM

STR? nononono I never mentioned the STR now did I o___o;;;

 

If there is a reason why Rogues have no real reliable gap closer, or that our gears have inferior stats to other classes is all because of this.

 

Rogues have such fearsome self-buffs that boosts their attack to stratospherical proportions, their objetive in the end is to deal the most damage to a single target. This was true Pre-AoV, and the pseudo try to make them go for AoE is simply... ridiculous...

 

Either way, this isn't a topic for warriors, but they, as the Swordies next class, have the +10% STR bonus which as of now is lacking in effectiveness just as much as AR and ATK UD right now, but please do note that UD proc does NOT boost STR, but ATK itself.

 

There are other skills aside from UD and AR that also boost one's own ATK, a case for the Rogue and any other class really, is the Ymir Child transformation, which gives another 30% ATK boost and together with ATK UD and maxed AR there is barely any notisable change in the damage output.

 

In other words we could consider that the current ATK boost for the Rogue are BUGGED just as much as for any other class, this of course makes the Rogue look quite boring... and its total dependency and focus on the sole skill Moonlight Dance

 

As I said before, just like you mention it a few times, UD is a gamble in which you can get a boost for ATK or CRIT of +20% flat and thats awesome in itself, however ATK is no longer what it used to be, so a 20% is actually a really poor boost that can't competence with the +20% flat Crit from its counter part. It is no longer a Win-Win situation for the Rogue whatever you get. Its Crit = Win, ATK = lose.

 

 

 

Well, I´ll add more to the suggestions then...

 

Suggestion 3 -> A combination of Suggestion 1 and 2, making UD have a +20% SEP boost instead of ATK and AR a 60% max ATK cap, this of course ends in a much more complicated formula...

 

Lets say we have the same 3k base ATK (already considering all STR) and the same 800 SEP weapon. With maxed AR it would mean 4.8k ATK which with the 15.53 constant divide means 309 SEP from the ATK, which adding the 800 SEP from weapon we would have 1109 SEP, then to that we add the +20% SEP boost from UD which would be an ending 1330 SEP, this means that a Double Attack would do 3325 damage, a 33% boost. We could play a bit with the boost from AR :/

 

Suggestion 4 -> If the counter comment for all this is simply the OPness of having too much attack (which would be a very ridiculous QQing threadline in my opinion) and it should stay like this, then I would suggest to simply get rid of this obsolete ATK boost and put something useful instead like +20% HIT or Haste like some of you have suggested above... (Vigor would be asking too much :v)


Edited by Leinzan, 18 March 2014 - 08:00 PM.

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#16 Chocs

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:05 PM

We are discussing numbers where the numbers themselves are subject to change, so maybe for now we don't need to get stressed over going too deep.

 

There are general points about how I think Rogue should be:

 

- Highest tier single target damage dealer. The top dog raid boss DPS.

- In exchange for the above point survivability should not be overpowering. Make them a glass cannon of sorts that require some craftiness to master. Smoke Bomb and Gangster's Paradise do need to be more reliable though.

- If SB and GP are more accessible and reliable, there is no need for "true" gap closers. Chasing (and running away) is an Assassin's niche.

- Because Rogues won't be able to chase, they should at least keep enemies tied up the moment they reach them. This can involve more effective Movement Speed debuffs that is easily incorporated into a generic rotation (ie. replace Detect Weakness with Fracture on Dual Stab).

 

I haven't really time to read through the whole thread so apologies in advance :wah:


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#17 Strobe

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 03:14 AM

I have been thinking of altering Cresent Moon rather than smoke bomb now.
Like give it additional short range with the lightning walk effect at 4 meters (just 2x distance of double attack)
This would let us close the gap and not need any chasing capability.

This is basically how an assassin stuns but they have farther range and deal more damage than our own

The only OP side of this is Lv10 Cresent Moon is just under a few seconds of cool down.
We still need combo points though unlike sins.

I need more feedback with this. Calling out Quinntto, or any other WOE active rogues that uses CM
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#18 Leinzan

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 09:15 AM

Im sorry strobes, but I can't agree with the idea.

 

A lvl 10 Crescent Moon not only has a base cooldown of 15 seconds, it also has a knock down of 5 seconds maximum and 10 seconds of heal cancels and 70% walking speed reduction. If a Rogue has a 30% vigor, this means the cooldown is reduced to mere 10 seconds.

 

Lets take into account the fact that unlike the knock down effect, the fracture effect can hit in even if you perform and connect the Crescent Moon with 1 Combo Point (like right after Dark Illusion), lasting for those 10 whole seconds.

 

Lets say the Hit/Dodge gets fixed, what do we get? A high chance of perma slowing and heal canceling an oponent in colosseum.

 

The reason why I always thought this skill was incredibly useful for PvPing outside of hide and why the devs won't give a gap closer to the Rogues that easily was all because of this skill alone. In its own way, its more dangerous than Moonlight Dance. Many Priest, Sorcerers, Wizards, Knights, Assassins, Rangers and what not, suffered their down fall because of this skill.

 

To top it off, now, unlike pre-AoV, Crescent Moon deals damage, altho not a lot on its own (barely as much as Double Attack lvl 5), it allows for a non stop DPSing. Lame I know, but for all the other effects it has, I really think its more than enough.

 

Placing more debuffs or effects to this skill would be weighing too much into it, maybe skills like Dual Stab of Cross Impact are in a greater need of effects like the one you are suggesting.

 

If anything, I believe that the Fracture effect shouldn't start appearing from lvl 6, but since lvl 2, and up every 2 levels.

 

Like this:

 

Skill lvl 1 / Cooldown 60 secs / Fracture 0 secs / Damage 95%

2 / 50 / 2 / 113

3 / 40 / 2 / 130

4 / 30 / 4 / 147

5 / 20 / 4 / 165

6 / 19 / 6 / 182

7 / 18 / 6 / 199

8 / 17 / 8 / 217

9 / 16 / 8 / 234

10 / 15 / 10 / 251


Edited by Leinzan, 19 March 2014 - 09:17 AM.

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#19 Deyaboo

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 09:16 AM

I have been thinking of altering Cresent Moon rather than smoke bomb now.
Like give it additional short range with the lightning walk effect at 4 meters (just 2x distance of double attack)
This would let us close the gap and not need any chasing capability.

This is basically how an assassin stuns but they have farther range and deal more damage than our own

The only OP side of this is Lv10 Cresent Moon is just under a few seconds of cool down.
We still need combo points though unlike sins.

I need more feedback with this. Calling out Quinntto, or any other WOE active rogues that uses CM

 

Not a bad idea but, seems all teleport skills tend to bug, CM is bugged also, letting players kncked down run, so we still have to chase them,You cant rely always in 5 sec KD since  for example in may casee many times I use CM with just 1 combo points just to not let the target heal.

Besides (just my thinking) CM is already OP as it is right now no need to add more effects, is better to effectly buff another skill,


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#20 Strobe

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 09:25 AM

Guys, I need a list of what needs to be prioritized in fixing our class.

 

Example:

 

IGN:Strobes

 

1. Dodge/Hit system

 

2. Dual Stab

 

3. Dark Illusion

 

Etc..

 

Since A lot are viewing this thread, I would like to get your opinions. Rate it as 1 being the highest


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#21 Leinzan

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 09:51 AM

1. Hit/Dodge has priority, altho this isn't solely related to Rogues

 

2. Improving the generation of Combo Points or reducing the Combo Point sinking.

 

3. Self-Buffs reviews, since they seem to be lacking in effectiveness since AoV hit in, of course, this isn't related solely to Rogues either.

 

4. Effectiveness of other single target attack skills, there is too much dependence on the sole finisher skill Moonlight Dance, improving a bit the other attack skills in a way that makes them desirable as well shouldn't be bad. We don't have enought skill points for all of them either way.

 

 

 

Right now I don't have a good suggestion for the Hit/Dodge problem.

 

For the 2nd, I could suggest that Combo Mastery improves the effectiveness of Combo Training skill effect in some way of sorts:

Way 1) Whenver Combo Mastery Proc is used, the next Combo Generating skill will generate twice the Combo Points.

Way 2) Combo Mastery will improve Combo Training effect by multiplying Combo Mastery's level with Combo Training % effect.

Goes like this:

Combo Training lvl 1 / Combo Mastery lvl 1 / 5% Extra Combo Point Generation Chance

2 / 1 / 10%

3 / 1 / 15%

1 / 2 / 10%

2 / 2 / 20%

3 / 2 / 30%

1 / 3 / 15%

2 / 3 / 30%

3 / 3 / 45%

 

 

For the 4th, one that I would suggest to review is Deadly Blow, and Cross Impact, again... even if they also benefit the Assassins, truly speaking, there simply are not enough Skill Points for everything...

 

For Cross Impact, either a double damage, a ranged effect, or a debuff effect is good (not the 3 together), so long they change the animation so it won't root your feet on the floor.

 

For Deadly Blow, its not a very juicy skill to max since its damage comparison with Double Attack is way too close and the DPS improving from it is quite dubious...

What I would suggest is for it to have a real finisher level modifer %, yet make it more dependant of Combo Points.

For example:

 

Deadly Blow Skill lvl 1 / 60% Base Damage / 70% Extra Damage per Combo Point / 410% Max Damage

2 / 70 / 90 / 520%

3 / 80 / 110 / 630%

4 / 90 / 130 / 740%

5 / 100 / 150 / 850%

 

Current lvl 1 is of 520% and lvl 5 is of 600%

 

Wouldn't recomend the improving of Deadly Blow and Combo Training to go together.


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#22 Strobe

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:03 AM

Hi Leinzan, please check out this new thread that I made http://forums.warppo...ggestionsfixes/

You can copy/paste your suggestions and post it there instead. Will mean a lot for me. Thanks!


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#23 Strobe

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 03:19 PM

Hi guys, I'm currently gathering ideas about our class having Chasing/Gap Closing skill and so far I have these suggestions from our fellow rogues:

 

- Giving a small range boost on our Cresent Moon skill

- Giving Lightning Walk Effect on a short distance with Cresent Moon

- Giving temporary speed bonus to Smoke Bomb

- Giving slow effect with the skill Dagger Throwing (This might apply to Assassins too if they change ours. It's a Thief skill after all)

- Changing the Adrenaline Rush proc to give movement speed bonus

- Gangster Paradise giving additional speed boost while active

 

And about Cross Impact

 

- Remove this skill completely (Should also apply to Assassins)

- Make this skill give additional combo point

 

Feel free to add more on the list! I will be reporting again on Friday/Saturday and would like to hear more suggestions before we can choose what's best for our class.

 

Any concerns that hasn't been covered yet or if there are new bugs that pop out every big patch, please do tell. Thanks guys!

 


Edited by Strobe, 25 March 2014 - 03:46 PM.

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#24 IchiNiSan

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 06:31 AM

Wow, they ninja fixed Dark Illusion, more buggy now :v


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#25 chronojxf007

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 10:15 PM

Character Name: ChronoJXF
 
Suggestion Type: Skills/Rogue Buffs
 
Cross Impact - A waste of skill points unless improved; make this skill generate 2 combo points instead of one, but increase cooldown like 5x or 10x the cooldown speed
 
Dual Stab - Too low success rate in actual, even if the skill is maxed, increase success rate; 
 
Gangster Paradise - Decrease cooldown [-33% cooldown]; decrease the cast time more if can; i would suggest the cooldown of this skill depends on the combo points used [for example on a rogue got cooldown of this skill in 20 seconds~  20 sec - 33% = 13.2 sec, if i use one combo point only for Gangster Paradise, the cooldown will be 2.64sec.]
Gangster Paradise (Animation) - increase the glow generated or at least make the glowing of healing aura effect more appealing on eyes
 
Rolling Cutter - Increase radius of AOE a bit; make it 2x compound instead of three
Rolling Cutter (Animation) - i wanna suggest; make it the animation like the "rolling skill acion" of "Kung Lao" of "Mortal Kombat"
 
Adrenaline Rush from Unstable Doping (using red potion) - Make it 30 minutes instead of 3; Don't remove the buff when the character is disconnected/relogs
 
Crescent Moon - I would agree on Strobes' suggestion  :hmm:  :no1:
 
Moonlight Dance - FYI its not a dance anymore, better change name it to "Moonlight Impact"; i also suggest make the old Moonlight Dance came back but dont change the damage rate [for example, compare (old Moonlight Dance = new Moonlight Dance + 3x Double Attack) since the old Moonlight Dance consumes too much time compared to the new Moonlight Dance]
 
*Suggested Buff*
 
Movement Rush from Unstable Doping (using blue potion, 30 minutes duration) - increase movement speed depending on rogue's HP, [for example HP 30000 then divided by 800 = 37.5% movement increase]
 
Bring back the rogue skills "Intimidate"/"Preserve"/"Reproduce" :v  :rice:   :heh: 

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