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Rogue Feedback: Suggestions


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#51 imbalomaniac13

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 01:55 PM

I don't really get that one. It's true that the Rogue doesn't have a 'fast' stun attack (i.e. it's required to optain combo points first). So if that's considered an issue, retaining CPs during hide won't fix that, except if you leave hide shortly thereafter. Then of course, the rogue already has a skill that allows him to cast combo-point intensive skills out of hide.

 

But let's assume the combo points wouldn't be resetted, the four skills that require CPs are: Deadly Blow, Crecent Moon, Gangster's Paradise and Moonlight Dance. So how would your change improve the Rogue in an environment where most classes chain-stun or one-shot each other?

 

And would you want the suggestion be true for any stealth class or should it be restricted on the Rogue alone?

 

In my opinion, it would be great, if the devs would consider another mechanism instead. (They did this with the Priest, Crecentia, Sorcerer and Soulmaker already). Since the thief classes ought to be surprise striker, I'd enjoy an inverted CP system instead. That means that CPs are automatically recharged, but the use of most skills rather drains it instead (see the mana system). That would allow them to do maximum damage on the first strike, but would also require them to "pause" the use of certain skills in order to allow the charge bar to refill itself.

 

 

First of all, I consider the Cross Impact damage quite an issue. It's even possible to one-shot a tank with a 90% defense rate. Further increasing the damage via Mark of Death wouldn't help much. However, it feels strange to me that you can use pots to trigger Unstable Doping during hide.

Comparing it to a single other skill is also quite risky. It could make more sense to nerf the referred skill instead. And when you use the words "against every other target", it makes me wonder what cooldown you have in mind in the current metagame?

 

Keep in mind that you can reset the cooldown with Dirty Plan already. So the theoretical cooldown is 60sec before vigor already. Assuming 40% vigor, it's possible to cast that skill every 36sec.

 

I would like it, if the skill would have a lower cooldown. BUT, that's bound to other changes. First of all, a significant lower damage output, an accordingly reduced cooldown for opposing skills (Endure, Ki-Protection, Assumptio, Shield Fortress, etc.) and a possible swap of the slow effect onto another skill.

 

Beside the option to lower the cooldown, a situational extra cooldown reset could do the trick as well (see Shield Boomerang Mastery f.e.).

 

 

You want that skill create combo points instead? What about the currently variable stun duration? I think that skill is currently overpowered not because of the cc effect, but because of the potentially indefinite heal suppression.

 

 

The issue is - as always - the possible total damage. I agree that a 30% chance for 30% extra damage is quite bad, but keep in mind that the rogue also has other skills / effects to increase the damage instead. IMO, it's totally inbalanced to be able to use Moonlight Dance out of hide. So I would make that change bound to other downgrades.

 

Raising the combo point generation for Dual Stab isn't something I'd enjoy. IMO, the combo points were introduced just because it should prevent players from casting high damage / high cooldown skills right at the start of the battle. So my vote would rather be to further limit all classes.

 

My CP suggestion was to be able to do DirtyPlan>Hide/SmokeBomb>MoonlightDance
and SmokeBomb>DarkIllusion>ComboPointSinker because we are most of the time, if not always.. kited.

But seeing you consider MoonlightDancing out of hide a broken thing, then you'd prolly disapprove of this..

My MoD suggestion however, was to simulate most if not all of the Cresc's Raw Tilt.

Crescent Moon as a CP generator and my ComboPoint suggetion was to decrease time building ComboPoints,
because, as you have said, we have a loot of CompoPoint Sinkers, combo point for this, combo point for that,
Being the only class in game to gather something out of resource to stun, surely you don't want us to be unique like that eh?

Make it something like sin's ShadowAssault (3seconds) and retain the anti-heal factor. That would be it...

 

But then again, that's your opinion, and this is mine. I consider all of my suggestions to be buffs, and you more or less disapproved of them. Should I take it that you are considering Rogue as a balanced class? I beg to differ, our own VCR can't even recommend playing our class.

Cheers mate! :heh:
 
 


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#52 imbalomaniac13

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 01:55 PM

I don't really get that one. It's true that the Rogue doesn't have a 'fast' stun attack (i.e. it's required to optain combo points first). So if that's considered an issue, retaining CPs during hide won't fix that, except if you leave hide shortly thereafter. Then of course, the rogue already has a skill that allows him to cast combo-point intensive skills out of hide.

 

But let's assume the combo points wouldn't be resetted, the four skills that require CPs are: Deadly Blow, Crecent Moon, Gangster's Paradise and Moonlight Dance. So how would your change improve the Rogue in an environment where most classes chain-stun or one-shot each other?

 

And would you want the suggestion be true for any stealth class or should it be restricted on the Rogue alone?

 

In my opinion, it would be great, if the devs would consider another mechanism instead. (They did this with the Priest, Crecentia, Sorcerer and Soulmaker already). Since the thief classes ought to be surprise striker, I'd enjoy an inverted CP system instead. That means that CPs are automatically recharged, but the use of most skills rather drains it instead (see the mana system). That would allow them to do maximum damage on the first strike, but would also require them to "pause" the use of certain skills in order to allow the charge bar to refill itself.

 

 

First of all, I consider the Cross Impact damage quite an issue. It's even possible to one-shot a tank with a 90% defense rate. Further increasing the damage via Mark of Death wouldn't help much. However, it feels strange to me that you can use pots to trigger Unstable Doping during hide.

Comparing it to a single other skill is also quite risky. It could make more sense to nerf the referred skill instead. And when you use the words "against every other target", it makes me wonder what cooldown you have in mind in the current metagame?

 

Keep in mind that you can reset the cooldown with Dirty Plan already. So the theoretical cooldown is 60sec before vigor already. Assuming 40% vigor, it's possible to cast that skill every 36sec.

 

I would like it, if the skill would have a lower cooldown. BUT, that's bound to other changes. First of all, a significant lower damage output, an accordingly reduced cooldown for opposing skills (Endure, Ki-Protection, Assumptio, Shield Fortress, etc.) and a possible swap of the slow effect onto another skill.

 

Beside the option to lower the cooldown, a situational extra cooldown reset could do the trick as well (see Shield Boomerang Mastery f.e.).

 

 

You want that skill create combo points instead? What about the currently variable stun duration? I think that skill is currently overpowered not because of the cc effect, but because of the potentially indefinite heal suppression.

 

 

The issue is - as always - the possible total damage. I agree that a 30% chance for 30% extra damage is quite bad, but keep in mind that the rogue also has other skills / effects to increase the damage instead. IMO, it's totally inbalanced to be able to use Moonlight Dance out of hide. So I would make that change bound to other downgrades.

 

Raising the combo point generation for Dual Stab isn't something I'd enjoy. IMO, the combo points were introduced just because it should prevent players from casting high damage / high cooldown skills right at the start of the battle. So my vote would rather be to further limit all classes.

 

My CP suggestion was to be able to do DirtyPlan>Hide/SmokeBomb>MoonlightDance
and SmokeBomb>DarkIllusion>ComboPointSinker because we are most of the time, if not always.. kited.

But seeing you consider MoonlightDancing out of hide a broken thing, then you'd prolly disapprove of this..

My MoD suggestion however, was to simulate most if not all of the Cresc's Raw Tilt.

Crescent Moon as a CP generator and my ComboPoint suggetion was to decrease time building ComboPoints,
because, as you have said, we have a loot of CompoPoint Sinkers, combo point for this, combo point for that,
Being the only class in game to gather something out of resource to stun, surely you don't want us to be unique like that eh?

Make it something like sin's ShadowAssault (3seconds) and retain the anti-heal factor. That would be it...

 

But then again, that's your opinion, and this is mine. I consider all of my suggestions to be buffs, and you more or less disapproved of them. Should I take it that you are considering Rogue as a balanced class? I beg to differ, our own VCR can't even recommend playing our class.

Cheers mate! :heh:
 
 


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#53 Greven79

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 02:38 PM

My CP suggestion was to be able to do DirtyPlan>Hide/SmokeBomb>MoonlightDance
and SmokeBomb>DarkIllusion>ComboPointSinker because we are most of the time, if not always.. kited.

But seeing you consider MoonlightDancing out of hide a broken thing, then you'd prolly disapprove of this.

 

What do you expect. If a 770% skill (CI) can already one-shot most of the players out there, how would a 1420% skill end up?

 

What I've tried to say is that a rogue can already use Hide+CI > SB+CI > DP+SB+CI to one-shot up to 3 targets. And since there are so many speed buffs out there and Assassins don't max Hide Exceed, a rogue only has a minor drawback.
 

My MoD suggestion however, was to simulate most if not all of the Cresc's Raw Tilt.

 

MoD grants a 40% bonus and a movement debuff already. And beside that, keep in mind that the Crecentia doesn't have buff skills like MoG or Unstable Doping. So would you forgo MoG to get a 3sec MoS instead? Raw Tilt is their version of a party "buff/support" (like the BM has Armor Rip).

 

Crescent Moon as a CP generator and my ComboPoint suggetion was to decrease time building ComboPoints,

because, as you have said, we have a loot of CompoPoint Sinkers, combo point for this, combo point for that,
Being the only class in game to gather something out of resource to stun, surely you don't want us to be unique like that eh?

Make it something like sin's ShadowAssault (3seconds) and retain the anti-heal factor. That would be it...

 

Keep in mind that

  1. Hide characters have an inherent advantage
  2. Rangers don't have any sort of stun either (only a snare)
  3. Sorcerers / Wizards have no easy accessible stun eitherl (only a freeze)
  4. Rogues could get the required points at any time via Dirty Plan
  5. Rogues can get the required points at a random time via Combo Mastery
  6. You compared it with a Shadow Assault, that doesn't stop any healing

So sure, it's easy to see what a class is missing.

 

But it surprises me quite regularly that players seem to ignore all the other stuff around it. Sure, a Sorcerer lacks of vigor, but has an abnormal low cooldown for JT / Fireball and gains a lot of Critical instead. That's why it is a bit strange to me that you want to get the stun of an assassin, but can't let go of the "stops healing" part. So what do you think would the Assassins do, once your suggestions were implemented? My bet would be that they demand a healing stop, a smoke bomb, a MoS and/or a Dirty plan in return.

 

So sure, you have your opinion, I have mine. I only added some considerations here.


Edited by Greven79, 26 September 2014 - 02:43 PM.

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#54 chronojxf007

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 04:29 AM

Character Name: ChronoJXF

 

Suggestion Type: Fix Mark of Death cancels out when Smobe Bomb is used

 

Suggestion Description: Mark of Death cancels out when Smoke Bomb is used; Make it "not disappear and continuously useable" when Smoke Bomb is used and/or add up bleeding effect to Mark of Death [bleeding 0.5% Atk Power dealt per 1 -  sec] to make sure MoD will be still active in battle; So it will be like:

Mark of Death:
Level 1 - +2% damage inflicted to enemy, +2% damage inflicted by Rogue class dps skills, -5% target movement speed + bleeding effect equal to 0.1% of Atk Power every 1 - 2 sec
Level 2 - +4% damage inflicted to enemy, +4% damage inflicted by Rogue class dps skills, -10% target movement speed + bleeding effect equal to 0.2% of Atk Power every 1 - 2 sec
Level 3 - +6% damage inflicted to enemy, +6% damage inflicted by Rogue class dps skills, -15% target movement speed + bleeding effect equal to 0.3% of Atk Power every 1 - 2 sec
Level 4 - +8% damage inflicted to enemy, +8% damage inflicted by Rogue class dps skills, -20% target movement speed + bleeding effect equal to 0.4% of Atk Power every 1 - 2 sec
Level 5 - +10% damage inflicted to enemy, +10% damage inflicted by Rogue class dps skills, -25% target movement speed + bleeding effect equal to 0.5% of Atk Power every 1 - 2 sec
Level 6 - +12% damage inflicted to enemy, +12% damage inflicted by Rogue class dps skills, -30% target movement speed + bleeding effect equal to 0.6% of Atk Power every 1 - 2 sec
Level 7 - +14% damage inflicted to enemy, +14% damage inflicted by Rogue class dps skills, -35% target movement speed + bleeding effect equal to 0.7% of Atk Power every 1 - 2 sec
Level 8 - +16% damage inflicted to enemy, +16% damage inflicted by Rogue class dps skills, -40% target movement speed + bleeding effect equal to 0.8% of Atk Power every 1 - 2 sec
Level 9 - +18% damage inflicted to enemy, +18% damage inflicted by Rogue class dps skills, -45% target movement speed + bleeding effect equal to 0.9% of Atk Power every 1 - 2 sec
Level 10 - +20% damage inflicted to enemy, +20% damage inflicted by Rogue class dps skills, -50% target movement speed + bleeding effect equal to 1% of Atk Power every 1 - 2 sec

 


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#55 Cartian

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 06:35 PM

Not sure if you mean PvE or PvP, in PvP I see the MoD still going when I smokebombed.

 

In PvE, when you smokebomb and you are not in a party it treat you as "battle end" and it's only reasonable that the mob reset when without a target around.  Having a dot will reset the dot too.  Don't think anything can be done about that.  

 

I on the other hand wishes MoD is like guild skill using it (<- nevermind gged by patch) will not unhide myself but probably faces the same mob reset issue in PvE.  Actually, GP and DP shouldn't unhide me too :p_err: .  


Edited by Cartian, 03 November 2014 - 10:24 PM.

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#56 yukaandriza

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 06:48 AM

i hope they can fix detect weakness


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#57 kamuxo

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 08:46 AM

Character Name: paracelcius

 

Suggestion Type: Change Detect Weakness effect of Duel Stab or description.

 

Suggestion Description: First, the chance of obtain detect Weakness buff (improve damage MD and DB supposed) and the damage of skill is very low (acceptable stadistics begin in level 8, really ? i only use right now to "improve" cp generation, but in level 1, DA lvl 5 > DS lvl 8 for obviously raison, skills points used and cooldown).

 

If both, damage and buff sucks (MoD > detect weakness in chance and improve damage), why not improve damage something (current level 10 is aprox 300% damage) like this

 

formula suggested: (150 + 30*skill level)

DSlvl5>CIlvl5>DAlvl1>DAlvl1=(300+700+170+170)/4=335% per second (you loss points in DA to level up DS) and generate 5 cp, this is with the suggested formula

 

DSlvl1>CIlvl5>DAlvl5>DAlvl5=(140+700+250+250)/4=335% per second and generate 5 cp, this is with the current formula

 

The only difference is the change in the damage formula, only when you invert more skill points in DS you can improve the DPS, with level 5 only invert to obtain detect weakness debuff without sacrifice DPS with the current formula (level down DA).

 

So, about detect weakness debuff. +30% of extra attack power to DB and MD is certainly low (and the problem with DB isnt a buff that gives +30% damage extra, is a current formula that only improves +80% damage between lvl 1 to lvl 5), i use DB only in raid (and about hiding use, you dont really use your hiding to DBx2); to MD only if you use SB+MD combo this can be an acceptable bonus, and you dont wait an etertnity to cast that combo if not proceed. Will be better change the bonus:

 

suggested bonuses

- +110% extra damage ATK in generator combo point skills (the only problem, will be a powerfull CI, so, to evade that, that bonus must be only to Double Atk and Duel Stab)

 

- +100% extra damage ATK only in Deadly blow, for 10 or 15 seconds (isnt much powerful that mark of shadow bonus of ultimatex2 damage, considering that they can spam that more fast versus SB+MD, and really, skill only generate 2 cp and have ATK% low vs shadow strike)

 

- reduce 10% ATK/MATK debuff in target (with debuff line of rogues, and is according to name buff/debuff)

 

- +80% extra damage ATK in DB and MD (low chance of success, after all, nice incentive to level up 10) 

 

Well, something like that i want see in duel stab, after all is the fast cp generator, without considering combo mastery. IMHO, or improve buff/debuff, or improve damage (like suggest formula) :·3  


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