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Rogue Feedback: Suggestions


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#26 ruusei

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 04:27 PM

Hihi, sorry for not that much info since I don't know the values but I have been playing a rogue for a very long time. Maybe an adjust to unstable doping to make the buff last longer than 3 mins.

I feel like gangsters paradise should heal for higher % and have a lowered CD (getting those combo points for it should make up for it because sins grimtooth can be spammed every 10 seconds and it GAINS combo points, i think its unfair..)
I would say change back the skill animation for Moonlight dance, but you can even nerf the dmg on it, it made the class feel so off and weird.
Plus the long skill animation for how much it hits seemed to balance out, since they can still stun you or knock you down between that time.

I feel the buff for dual stab is completely useless, it has such a low hit rate, and I really don't want to spend that many points in that skill because it doesnt seem worth it at all. (I only use the skill for emergency combo points but even then it misses so much)

I do like the dodge we got but I can't hit anything in return... and if i can't hit anything I gain no combo points.. and rogues are very reliant on combo points bc without them I cant do nothing.


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#27 Strobe

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 08:46 AM

I have my gangster paradise at max level with 21 sec cooldown and it heals 3.8k every 2 seconds. An SM's cure can heal at 7-9k and is already considered OP. I don't think we need more healing since our class is a DPS after all.

 

AOV removed downtime for most skills. Giving our top hitting skill downtime would make it inferior to other classes. (Guillotine Fist, Etc) Although I agree that old moonlight dance looked waaaaaaay better than the new one.

 

Dual Stab is broken and has been reported a lot of times.

 

Dodge is pretty useless when you don't have anything to support it. ( monks and warriors have skills to boost dodge. We don't. )

 

Sorry if I seem to disagree with most of your suggestions, I am merely relating all your suggestions with other classes to maintain balance.

 

And sorry if we've been pretty dead for the past few days. Currently waiting for the big patch to come then gather feedbacks again from you guys. Pretty much all of our concerns have been reported already.

Big patch is 2 weeks from now. :rice:


Edited by Strobe, 10 April 2014 - 09:00 AM.

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#28 Leinzan

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 10:16 AM

I wouldn't keep my hopes up if I were you, that way it might ease up on disapointment.

 

But a thing is for sure, Vigor will be nerfed.


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#29 Quinntto

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 01:01 PM

Has the issue with fracture effect been reported? Sorry I haven't been keeping up to date.


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#30 Leinzan

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 01:15 PM

and whats that issue?


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#31 Billeh

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 01:45 PM

What's the issue with fracture? I use it on a regular basis and haven't noticed anything. If you're talking about the sliding bug that comes with knocking an opponent down, however, that has been reported.


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#32 Leinzan

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 02:25 PM

if you want to avoid the target from slinding away from you, pay attention and use it when they stop moving :|


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#33 Strobe

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 06:41 AM

That shouldn't be a solution. But anyway, in addition to crescent moon, smoke bomb and dual stab are still not working as intended. :(


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#34 Leinzan

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 07:17 AM

«Smoke Bomb» bug is fun actually, by having monsters not immediately reseting on you you can do the x4 attack quite often... it is annoying tho, when they can still see you :|

 

 

Yea, that is not a real solution for «Crescent Moon», but it has saved my ass a countless amount of times, and knowing when the skill can be useful with this bug around is a good thing... it should improve your killing rate (disregarding the hit/dodge rate)

 

 

«Dual Stab»... I can only facepalm to this skill... I mean, leaving aside the fact that the animation is horrible (yes I dont like it), it only hits once, and for a far much weaker amount than «Double Attack»... seriusly :|

 

 

And «Detect Weakness» is SO CONFUSING!!! How many times have I wasted my «Smoke Bomb» for an x4 «Moonlight Dance» or used «Gangster Paradise» with 2 Combo Points because I mistook «Detect Weakness» for «Combo Mastery»!!!

 

«Detect Weakness» should have a more distinctive way of appearance, the marksman animation is so slow and hard to see sometimes! and the appearance of the F shortcut that is identical to the «Combo Mastery» proc only makes things worse!!!

 

You should add that to the report :v

 

«Detect Weakness» is so easily mistook by «Combo Mastery» proc


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#35 Fata7

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 06:00 AM

this new patch has ruined rogues for me, and i was wondering what you guys think of it, to me it feels like ive lost 50% of my survivability since i can't dodge anymore, the other 50% bein CM and smokebomb. i tried so hard to raise my dodge and its now at 4008 but with everyone having 6.5k+ hit it seems useless now, i stand no chance against any sort of tank now, Knights just shield bash me and then use shield cannon and its insta death. I used to be able to dodge at least one if not all of the hits and now like i said it's instadeath, same with BMs i cant dodge their stuns so its just stunlock then belly flop=insta death and all warrs have to do is rs me since it basically never misses any more >.< even a DPS bm kills me so damn easy it just feels useless, im full osi with all 20% blue and flame runes and a monk with no runes can beat me easily :( idk if im doing somethin wrong or it's this balance but it's really getting to me haha >.< so.. thoughts/opinions please xD


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#36 Leinzan

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 06:48 AM

Hmm, I havent tried colo in a while... but if there is something I should agree with, is that Dodge should be considered a lucky instance, not something to depend on :|

 

In my case, instead of Dodge on honing, I placed my bet on Vigor, because in the end, all you do is for the sake of «Moonlight Dance».

We lost Vigor on Armor, Pants and Gloves, leaving us with only the Hat, Shoes and Accesories... but getting a high Vigor is still possible.

 

Having at least a 30% Vigor would allow you to slow lock enemies that loves to run away by using «Crescent Moon» on its maxed level. You should avoid fighting any none-self healer if they are aware of your assault.

 

So basically its a game of rock-papper-sissors, in which you'll have an easy time killing some classes and a hard time killing others. But none is impossible to beat.

 

 

With Crescent Moon maxed, your main dish would be the ranged classes that loves to run away and are overconfident of both their kitting skills and self-heals: the Priest, Sorcerer, Soulmaker, Crescentia, Rangers or Wizards.

 

All while avoiding tank classes, or fellow thieves (seriusly, fighting another Rogue or an Assassin is by no means an easy fight).

 

 

That strategy is quite simple, but if you want to beat the tank classes, then you should rely on the main reason one picks a Rogue over an Assassin... the trickery.

 

This means you'll have to combine all sort of stuffs in order to beat a tank and take adventage of how they play out their classes, you can always go by a general idea since most players have their own play style but always falls in a default combo.

 

Like you said, Bears have the habit of knocking you down and then flopping on you, Monks can also knock you down and Asura you to your death, Warriros can knock you down as well and «Rage Strike» you... but guess what? you have «Smoke Bomb»

 

Unlike pre-AoV, kill stealing shouldnt have as much impact now, specially because people fall so fast and quickly, so «Dark Illusion» might not be that reliable for a kill... then staying hidden looking for a cheap kill has lost any meaning (or most of it). Then why not battle it out?!

 

Smoke Bomb on its max level not only hiddes you, it also makes your oponent lose sight of you and gives you 5 seconds of immunity since the moment you press the button down and the animation starts.

 

If you time it well, you can cancel a Rage Strike damage or an Asura or a belly flop or whatever, altho you can still be knocked down, most of those skills takes a whole lot more time to recover than yours. So its basically a "Hit me baby" way to go, but you can overturn the tables with this... and you always have «Dirty Plan» for a retry or «Mark of Death» if you hate them a lot :v


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#37 Greven79

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 07:37 AM

You can use smoke bomb while being stunned or knocked down?

 

Cause usually a monk would use lightning walk to leave you prone and then use asura strike as a finisher. If that isn't enough, he resets skills and repeats the process. And this is similar for Warriors or Beastmasters as well. They will first try to put you out of action and only if that's successful, they'll use their top-tier skill.


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#38 Leinzan

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 09:31 AM

Yea, its a thing about timing, it won't be something that will work always, same goes for them :v

 

The fact that when you use Smoke Bomb you are invinsible for 5 seconds doesnt change.

 

 

This is a battle of whoever hits first wins, after all. Thats why its a "hit me baby" strategy.


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#39 rzevidz007

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 09:48 AM

Basically AGI classes and other AGI reliant classes got destroyed after patch.

The only thing saved me when asura'ed is dodge, and that dodge has dissapear.

I am an assassin, I love my class, I love the healing it does, I love its holysh*t shield, I love its damage, but there's no love anymore for the class because everyone just go and 1 shot everything and tanks are now having incredible hulk attack power and high min-max attack power compared to pure melee DPS classes like thieves.

 

Simply:

Tanks now beating pure DPS class in everything. Survivabiliy, burst, sustainable DPS, everything.

 

Unless the skill balancing does it job to bring back the importance of "class roles" into the game, I don't think it's desirable to go playing thief class at all.


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#40 Chocs

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 02:29 PM

Back in the old days tanks used to have to sacrifice hit rate for toughness... Now all of them can get easy hit in addition to their usual perks.

 

Well as someone that owns characters of every role, it's just a change of flavour to me :heh:

 

I wonder who thought reducing max HP AND increasing some class' attack power is a good idea.


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#41 Leinzan

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 03:33 PM

Maybe a CEO likes to play FPSs with nothing but Rocket Launchers.


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#42 1163130726160243470

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 11:58 AM

So has any1 noticed that we are terrible DPS in Raid now....


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#43 Leinzan

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 12:02 PM

heh... we are by no means terrible in DPS in raids... specially on boss battles.

 

By far we hit harder than ever...

 

You can't estimate a Rogue's DPS using the Threat Meter because of how a Rogue DPS is.


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#44 Reidetz

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 06:40 AM

Character Name: Reidetx

Suggestion Type: Crescent Moon

Suggestion Description: Improve range of the skill or provide Rogues with movement speed buffs

 

How on earth did I even miss this thread =.=. Hope that you guys could turn my suggestion to the devs in time before the rebalancing. So here goes....

 

My issue with rogue is that we are terrible at disabling other classes and it is very hard for rogues to outrun them since we are melee players with no movement speed buff (not sure why the devs think this is appropriate from the very beginning). The first one is as you highlighted, that we have to gain 5 combo points to actually get the max stun duration which is useless since most of the class can 1 hit us before that. Yes we have dark illu with a single combo point that now comes in handy since we have the fracture effect. But what good does it do against classes that runs all around the map all the time with better movement speed buff. You end up dead with their dot while you are chasing them. 

 

If you duel with a good player, it is extremely hard to lay a stun before they 1 hit or DOT us to death. Most of the time against classes like rangers sin priest sorc, I resort to hide> double attack instead of hide>dark illu since dark illu's animation will glue us for an instance to the place where the target was at when we cast it. And that short instance is enough for our target to run away (because they never stop running) before we could actually use our crescent moon. If I use double attack (which animation doesnt glue us to a place), I could at least predict where the target is moving to next and cut the course so that I could stun them on that spot. But still, this is pretty damn hard especially against players with movement speed buff like rangers sins and priest.

 

So my suggestion is,

1. to increase the range of crescent moon instead of having to sit right next to the target to be able to use it. Or maybe make it as knight's skills where we can move to the target and stun. (But I think every1 would argue with this)

 

2 If the 1st one is unlikely. could you at least give us a movement speed buff so that we can better chase our opponents. Probably after using Dark Illu it'll give us some movement speed buff for an instance. or maybe include the buff as a default with our doping?

 

Would love to hear your feedback on this. Thank you.


Edited by Reidetz, 31 May 2014 - 06:44 AM.

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#45 Leinzan

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 09:53 AM

uhm... so again on that about the ranged «Crescent Moon»... you guys do realize thats a kick, right?

well, it might be true that it would come in handy if it were at least 4m range (woah! we would have such long legs!)

 

About «Double Attack» or «Dark Illusion» as candidates to use while hiding and before using CM, you have a misconception there... DI doesn't stop you with its animation, all it requires now is that your character is on the ground (you can even use it while moving).

 

Most likely, you have DI on the second or third bar of your skills shortcut bars. If you press and hold Shift or Alt the movement keys wont work (yea, its lame, but thats how it is).

 

Try placing your DI on DA's spot and try casting it while moving around, you should be able to move just fine O_o

 

(not saying that you should go for DI instead of DA, but just wanted to clarify that)

 

 

 

I could relate the most with the second part of your first option by combining 3 skills:

If we had a passive to «Dirty Plan» in which it has a 6% per level chance that when using «Dagger Throw» it enables «Dark Illusion» for 3~5 seconds, and on using it, you can warp on a target 20m away from you and stun it for 3 seconds. Something like that?

 

Lame but, our current "movement buff" is Fracture :| ... yes, very, very lame... all I can say is that, you should improve your chasing skills >____>


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#46 Reidetz

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 05:43 PM

haha... ok cool.... just giving out some ideas. And yes.... I do need to work on my chasing skills :D Give me some pointers in game maybe?

Lets hope for the best for our class! Cheers~


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#47 Leinzan

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 08:54 AM

Well, one of the most annoying things about DI is that it warps you on the target's back and facing to their current front, which often doesn't overlap with yours, which makes things confusing when you warp on them and since they are mostly running ahead its pretty normal for them to go past you once you use DI.

 

So, when you want to use DI while moving, press and hold the mouse right button and move the mouse a little to get hold of the camera.

Without releasing the mouse button, use DI on the oponent you want while following their tracks.

On cast, you will be able to warp behing them while gliding to the side you are desiring to move without having your camera angle or character position affected, hence making the chasing with DI a lot easer.

 

 

Many people tend to run around a lot, but the brain process of many isnt vast enough for complicated movement while battling and paying attention to their own character. Hence they opt for big circles to one single side or simply running forward (sometimes even with autorun). So getting a hold of where they are going is much easer. This is the case for a lot of Priests or Wizards.


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#48 chronojxf007

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 07:19 PM

Character Name: ChronoTXF

Suggestion Type: Make Rolling Cutter better and wider

Suggestion Description: Make Rolling Cutter have one stack dot only or no dot at all. Compare to AOE of other classes (Bear Tornado, Multi Shot, Arrow Shower, Brandish Storm, Grand Cross, etc) the compounding of bleeding effect up to 3x is hilarious unless increased damage and increased bleeding effect time, plus the "actual time" of instant cast is quiet slow;, need also faster instant cast and a little bit more radius area effect.


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#49 imbalomaniac13

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 02:44 PM

Character Name: Murderogue

Suggestion Type: Skills/Rogue Mechanics

 

Combo Points: It would be nice if we could retain combo points rather than losing them when using Hiding/Smoke Bomb.
With the current class balances, Rogue's potential in PvP is shutdown 'cause it takes too long for us to build combo points.
I know we have Combo Mastery and Combo Training(thief), but when most classes at ML20+ one-shot or chain stun each other,
our CC abilities pales in comparison..It would be nice if we get combo points as much as we can rather losing them without using in combat.

 

Mark of Death: Make this usable without breaking Hide/Smoke Bomb. The few seconds we have the element of surprise after we break stealth is very crucial in PvP or in the same light in PvE, this critical few seconds we have to build combo points ASAP so if we insert MoD in the middle of this we would be wasting time, even if its just a second or half a second (MoD casting animation).Think of it, if we are able to cast MoD before opening a with a skill, it would be easier for us to chase them if we decide to break stealth with Cross Impact because chasing around with slow movement speed due to Hide would be difficult, so slowing them with MoD evens things out. This also improves the damage output of our opening skill since we have already applied MoD to the target and we won't suffer the pause from MoD cast animation while building combo points. Also,

lower its cooldown, compared to Cresc's Raw Tilt's cooldown, it sux. I'm not saying give it 5secs cd, let's just make it usable against every other target when killing multiple targets one by one. This would also be a great help in pvp.

 

Crescent Moon: Make this skill a combo generator. As I have said, our CC's pales in comparison to others. Rather consuming combo points, this will be really good as a follow up from an opening (first attack breaking stealth) and this will make us stand against fairly against all classes.


Dual Stab: Detect Weakness proc rate is too low.. even at level 10 it's only 30%, not worth the 30% more damage from a level 10 MD or from Deadly Blow. Rescale it  by 10% each level, or just remove Detect Weakness at all and improve Dual Stab damage or raise its combo point generation to 3. I, personally just use this for combo point generation atm.

 

 

Cheers to all Rogues!  :heh: 

 

 

 


Edited by imbalomaniac13, 25 September 2014 - 01:05 PM.

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#50 Greven79

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 08:27 AM

Combo Points: It would be nice if we could retain combo points rather than losing them when using Hiding/Smoke Bomb. With the current class balances, Rogue's potential in PvP is shutdown 'cause it takes too long for us to build combo points. I know we have Combo Mastery and Combo Training(thief), but when most classes at ML20+ one-shot or chain stun each other, our CC abilities pales in comparison..It would be nice if we get combo points as much as we can rather losing them without using in combat.

 

I don't really get that one. It's true that the Rogue doesn't have a 'fast' stun attack (i.e. it's required to optain combo points first). So if that's considered an issue, retaining CPs during hide won't fix that, except if you leave hide shortly thereafter. Then of course, the rogue already has a skill that allows him to cast combo-point intensive skills out of hide.

 

But let's assume the combo points wouldn't be resetted, the four skills that require CPs are: Deadly Blow, Crecent Moon, Gangster's Paradise and Moonlight Dance. So how would your change improve the Rogue in an environment where most classes chain-stun or one-shot each other?

 

And would you want the suggestion be true for any stealth class or should it be restricted on the Rogue alone?

 

In my opinion, it would be great, if the devs would consider another mechanism instead. (They did this with the Priest, Crecentia, Sorcerer and Soulmaker already). Since the thief classes ought to be surprise striker, I'd enjoy an inverted CP system instead. That means that CPs are automatically recharged, but the use of most skills rather drains it instead (see the mana system). That would allow them to do maximum damage on the first strike, but would also require them to "pause" the use of certain skills in order to allow the charge bar to refill itself.

 

Mark of Death: Make this usable without breaking Hide/Smoke Bomb.

[...]This also improves the damage output of our opening skill since we have already applied MoD to the target and we won't suffer the pause from MoD cast animation while building combo points.

 

Also, lower its cooldown, compared to Cresc's Raw Tilt's cooldown, it sux. I'm not saying give it 5secs cd, let's just make it usable against every other target when killing multiple targets one by one. This would also be a great help in pvp.

 

First of all, I consider the Cross Impact damage quite an issue. It's even possible to one-shot a tank with a 90% defense rate. Further increasing the damage via Mark of Death wouldn't help much. However, it feels strange to me that you can use pots to trigger Unstable Doping during hide.

Comparing it to a single other skill is also quite risky. It could make more sense to nerf the referred skill instead. And when you use the words "against every other target", it makes me wonder what cooldown you have in mind in the current metagame?

 

Keep in mind that you can reset the cooldown with Dirty Plan already. So the theoretical cooldown is 60sec before vigor already. Assuming 40% vigor, it's possible to cast that skill every 36sec.

 

I would like it, if the skill would have a lower cooldown. BUT, that's bound to other changes. First of all, a significant lower damage output, an accordingly reduced cooldown for opposing skills (Endure, Ki-Protection, Assumptio, Shield Fortress, etc.) and a possible swap of the slow effect onto another skill.

 

Beside the option to lower the cooldown, a situational extra cooldown reset could do the trick as well (see Shield Boomerang Mastery f.e.).

 

Crescent Moon: Make this skill a combo generator. As I have said, our CC's pales in comparison to others. Rather consuming combo points, this will be really good as a follow up from an opening (first attack breaking stealth) and this will make us stand against fairly against all classes.

 

You want that skill create combo points instead? What about the currently variable stun duration? I think that skill is currently overpowered not because of the cc effect, but because of the potentially indefinite heal suppression.

 

Dual Stab: Detect Weakness proc rate is too low.. even at level 10 it's only 30%, not worth the 30% more damage from a level 10 MD or from Deadly Blow. Rescale it  by 10% each level, or just remove Detect Weakness at all and improve Dual Stab damage or raise its combo point generation to 3. I, personally just use this for combo point generation atm.

 

The issue is - as always - the possible total damage. I agree that a 30% chance for 30% extra damage is quite bad, but keep in mind that the rogue also has other skills / effects to increase the damage instead. IMO, it's totally inbalanced to be able to use Moonlight Dance out of hide. So I would make that change bound to other downgrades.

 

Raising the combo point generation for Dual Stab isn't something I'd enjoy. IMO, the combo points were introduced just because it should prevent players from casting high damage / high cooldown skills right at the start of the battle. So my vote would rather be to further limit all classes.


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