After a ton of CDs over the last week I have looked at purify, and other problems I keep seeing.
1. Purify was nerfed too much, I think we all agree on that. My suggestions is that the single target purify take 2-3 debuffs away (all debuffs including the mute, etc) and the unique purify take 3 debuffs away but have a bit shorter distance like maybe 15 or 20m and still be an AOE skill. Even though I still don't think that the way Purify worked before was a problem. I think that people that could not kill people perceived it as a problem that their debuffs were all being taken off of people, but as we have seen a lot of FS clerics said they don't even use it. But if it has to be nerfed I would suggest the above.
2. So many people in CD are complaining about running out of MP. The issues are 2 skills from what we have figured out. I think the Bow traps are cool but instead of 50% MP lost I would suggest maybe 30%. And the mage Mana Burn takes a lot of MP away. I don't know what the % is but they can drain a character in no time. I would suggest that the % should be lowered some. Mages are really strong without having to take someones MP away too.
3. Raiders are doing a good job with using their stealth and coming up behind the clerics or other vulnerable classes. That is what they are supposed to be able to do. But then they can stand toe to toe with a number of classes as well. To me, it makes sense for them to be able to kill the classes with less dodge and def, but not those that have higher def, etc. Maybe they are a bit too strong with their melee hits. I do not see many of them using skills since their melees are really strong. But I don't play raider - just posting what I see in TG and CD.
4. The teams are still so unbalanced with clerics. There are still a lot of them going without a FS cleric on one side but 4 on the other side. I have no idea what can be done about it though if you can't get the queue to figure it out. There are a lot less players playing FS cleric for sure. And a lot I have talked to have gone to other classes. That is one of the big problems. You may see it differently on CD stats but so many of those clerics are battle. FS cleric is not really fun to play anymore. We can't get offensive skills, or fun skills if we want to be able to stay alive to support the team. Our skills are pretty much cookie cutter now with either the def and block or mana flames and shield. Maybe if there was a way to make it fun and if the Devs stop nerfing them we would get more players back to playing cleric. I would actually rather play another class, but when we tried that there were no FS clerics.....so back on my cleric.
5. Launcher bourgs die really easily. They are a target not because they are so strong and their AOEs hurt as much as because they are an easy skill. I have a hard time keeping them alive because when ganged they can't run, and no def really compared to other classes. They really need either more def or more mspd to be able to get away.
Anyway, my thoughts so far.
Oh and Bendorsm0m is not me, don't let them scam you.
the reason why raiders dont use any skills because raiders dont have enough skill points (after getting the new passives) to get any any active skills worth using so they rely on melee attack.
Even with enough skill points no one would get any of them for their damage either since they kind of suck (katar raiders that is, dual raiders only do skills). Only skills that are remotely useful are that burn slash (against high def targets) and the PvP screw attack for crit down+heal reduction.
Launcher bourgs are that much under attack since they are a con based class, means they buypass dodge. Each raider who plays with tactics would attack them first, just for the fact that con based classes hurt.
I played cleric(fs with 9k def) a few times, i did actually have a way bigger problem with artis and bourgis than with raiders, but maybe i've just been unlucky with the games. But yes, like i mentioned before i can't give propper feedback about this as long as the groups arn't balanced out. That less FS clerics are playing in CD is actually a good thing, most of the time there are like 2-4 of them which would actually work pretty good as long as they are equaly split up between the teams. To me CD seems to be a way more fun compared to pre-update where it was more or less 8 clerics vs 8 clerics....
Launcher bourgs don't hurt a raider that much. Their 1v1 potential is low, launchers have low base accu (even if they're a con class their accu is not that high, and definitely not high enough to bypass a raiders 4-5k dodge) Just con only gets you so far. Knights (crossbow especially) on the other hand, those are the bane of a raider.
After a ton of CDs over the last week I have looked at purify, and other problems I keep seeing.
1. Purify was nerfed too much, I think we all agree on that. My suggestions is that the single target purify take 2-3 debuffs away (all debuffs including the mute, etc) and the unique purify take 3 debuffs away but have a bit shorter distance like maybe 15 or 20m and still be an AOE skill. Even though I still don't think that the way Purify worked before was a problem. I think that people that could not kill people perceived it as a problem that their debuffs were all being taken off of people, but as we have seen a lot of FS clerics said they don't even use it. But if it has to be nerfed I would suggest the above.
2. So many people in CD are complaining about running out of MP. The issues are 2 skills from what we have figured out. I think the Bow traps are cool but instead of 50% MP lost I would suggest maybe 30%. And the mage Mana Burn takes a lot of MP away. I don't know what the % is but they can drain a character in no time. I would suggest that the % should be lowered some. Mages are really strong without having to take someones MP away too.
3. Raiders are doing a good job with using their stealth and coming up behind the clerics or other vulnerable classes. That is what they are supposed to be able to do. But then they can stand toe to toe with a number of classes as well. To me, it makes sense for them to be able to kill the classes with less dodge and def, but not those that have higher def, etc. Maybe they are a bit too strong with their melee hits. I do not see many of them using skills since their melees are really strong. But I don't play raider - just posting what I see in TG and CD.
4. The teams are still so unbalanced with clerics. There are still a lot of them going without a FS cleric on one side but 4 on the other side. I have no idea what can be done about it though if you can't get the queue to figure it out. There are a lot less players playing FS cleric for sure. And a lot I have talked to have gone to other classes. That is one of the big problems. You may see it differently on CD stats but so many of those clerics are battle. FS cleric is not really fun to play anymore. We can't get offensive skills, or fun skills if we want to be able to stay alive to support the team. Our skills are pretty much cookie cutter now with either the def and block or mana flames and shield. Maybe if there was a way to make it fun and if the Devs stop nerfing them we would get more players back to playing cleric. I would actually rather play another class, but when we tried that there were no FS clerics.....so back on my cleric.
5. Launcher bourgs die really easily. They are a target not because they are so strong and their AOEs hurt as much as because they are an easy skill. I have a hard time keeping them alive because when ganged they can't run, and no def really compared to other classes. They really need either more def or more mspd to be able to get away.
Anyway, my thoughts so far.
Oh and Bendorsm0m is not me, don't let them scam you.
1. Yeap, I too agree on that. But instead of those number of debuffs and distance, I suggest:
Spoiler
Ahya asked I post this idea I had.
Debuffs are applied at rates of 1~2 downs / cast, or in the Very rare case of a Champ, 3 downs / 1 cast on ultimate scream.
The goal for reducing the Purify is to allow and give more weight to status downs and DoT's.
While I Agree that the AoE purify should be lowered and a Cooldown added, most people are raging already that it's 1 purify.
The way I see if, is most case status downs are not AoE, and require single target application. There's a decent amount, but not an over powering number of AoE status downs. And even in that case, majority of those are 1 status down / cast.
So The idea that the AoE Purify remove 1 status down in an area, with a moderate cooldown of 8-10 makes perfect sense when it's compared to the status down application speeds for AoE downs.
The single target Purify, is the one I see as needing some minor tuning.
I propose that the Single Target purify be a range of 1~3 downs removed / cast attempt. And that the cooldown on that be 10 seconds.
Most clerics, in-fact almost all cleric, only want the Purify in their team in case they get muted. Seems selfish, but also serves a purpose. However, you should have to invest into the skills and max them out to receive the full benefit.
Single Target Purify:
Purify (1 * 0.5) skill level : status downs
---[Level 5: 2.5 status downs / cast purified]
Cooldown: ( -5 * skill level) + 35 seconds
---[Level 1: 30 second CD | Level 5: 10 second cooldown]
For The Aoe it should simply be 1~2 status downs / cast with a solid 10 second cooldown at max level.
2. Indeed, so many people are being drained of MP incredibly fast. Well, those targeted by the mages or caught by those scary little Siphon Traps. And yes, they're scarier than a group of spear champs charging at me, or a duo/trio of ranged people shooting me from afar.
Anyway. I as well think the Siphon Trap should have it's effect reduced from 50% MP to 30%. As of the mage's Mana Burn, which version are you talking about: PvP Mana Burn or Mana Burn itself? The PvP version takes away 3x as much MP as the ordinary one. Personally I don't have any problems with it, since the cooldown on both is shared and relatively long.
Nobody sees me complaining for running out of MP because of being targeted by another mage in CD, or because of hitting a Siphon Trap and get my MP eaten, even if it means my Mana Shield means paper at that moment.
It's strong enough to slowly overpower Blue Potion, given that the mage has enough charm and int. But what of the mages who didn't choose that much charm and relies on the 3x stronger mana eater on the PvP version? The point of PvP Mana Burn, in my opinion, is to give a mage the leverage to strip away the MP of any foe they wish to, regardless of potions and 1-2 Mana Flames. Why else would it be there in the first place, if it would be so easily countered?
Everything has and must have a counter, yes that's it. PvP Thunder Storm is technically countered by Berserk, Cold Snap is countered by Purify and range, PvP Circle Break is countered by Purify and high defense, etc. Let me point out that this PvP Mana Burn can easily be countered by 4 Mana Flames of 2 FS Clerics + Blue Potions. That won't be as easily done, but it still has a counter.
3. I don't play the raider as well, but I agree on all points in this one. They should be quite able to take down someone from an ambush attack. That someone would and must be one with low defense and dodge. Raiders should not be able to stand toe to toe against knights, champs, or anyone with a shield. It just doesn't make sense how an assassin can best a soldier without him getting to take advantage of surprise.
4. Mmm. Mmmm. Mmmmm. CD's been quite deprived of clerics lately. Clerics are more squishy now than ever. Before, I never wanted to target them since it would be a waste of time, cooldowns, and skills. Now, I'm quite confident I can nuke on most of them, though not as much as the other classes. Makes the clerics a much more viable target, and even more in need of allies' protection.
5. I also like to target them. Along with gun bourgs, BAs, and bow scouts, they would most probably and usually not survive a continued assault of someone, unless they kite, thus taking advantage of their range.
the reason why raiders dont use any skills because raiders dont have enough skill points (after getting the new passives) to get any any active skills worth using so they rely on melee attack.
Most of the classes that they have really worked on so far have an issue with SP. My point is that on most other classes melee does some damage but the main damage is in skills. I do not understand how a melee attack alone can do that much damage. And with most classes they make their builds to give up some things to get others to get strong, but can't get all the passives, or skills that make them really strong. They have to mix and match to make the best builds for the way they play. I would imagine the Devs thought the same way for raiders. The fact that they can get all the strong passives and only rely on melee hits and still be that strong seems to me like something is not as they imagined it would be.
I am not sure that Feuer added in with his calculations the mutes, sleeps, stuns, and silence for his figures for debuffs. And you can't take away 2.5 debuffs. That is why I posted it at 3.
And I agree, if there were a way to balance the number of clerics in the games that would be great, but we don't want the queue to be held up for hours again waiting for one cleric like it used to. So my solution is to make FS cleric fun to play again. Just not sure how at this point. And yes, the games with 5 FS clerics per side were no fun for anyone, including clerics.
Yes the PVP mana burn is the issue and combined with siphon traps some chars are without mana until they die.. But on a good note, at least when you die in CD now you do regain your mana. And cleric can go with mana flames, but with the raiders and scouts hiding in the back and just targeting the cleric first I would much rather use the block and def skills instead of a shield and mana flames. And if a cleric uses Mana Shield to help them survive that already takes 50% of their mp, then buffs and heals take a lot. We do regen faster than most but for other classes but it is hard to combat a mage set on depleting all your mana.
Anyway, just some ideas and thoughts since the update and trying things out in game play.
Perhaps, to balance it out even more with those mutes and stuns, it would be better this way:
For the Single Target Purify:
Status downs:
--- Level 1 = 1
--- Level 2 = 1-2
--- Level 3 = 1-3
--- Level 4 = 2-3
--- Level 5 = 3
Cooldowns:
--- Level 1 = 30 sec
--- Level 2 = 25 sec
--- Level 3 = 20 sec
--- Level 4 = 15 sec
--- Level 5 = 10 sec
For the AoE Purify, since so many people are arguing about which should be what:
Option A - this one offers more debuffs removed at the cost of less range.
--- 3 Debuffs, 15m radius, 15 sec cooldown.
Option B - this one offers less debuffs removed in exchange for greater range.
--- 1-2 Debuffs, 25m radius, 15 sec cooldown.
Option C - this one offers less debuffs removed and lesser range, in exchange for a shorter cooldown.
--- 1-2 Debuffs, 15m radius, 10 sec cooldown.
Option D - this one offers more debuffs removed and greater range, at the cost of longer cooldown.
--- 3 Debuffs, 25m radius, 20 sec cooldown.
I'm not really a cleric, but given those suggestions for the AoE Purify above, there will be fixed options to argue, not to enforce them as the only arguable and viable options, but to give the best variety of choices of possible arguments, in that they are more balanced in terms of strength, range, and cooldown. Personally though, I think option C is the best, since no cleric should remain completely stationary to make use of range.
No offense but if you are not a cleric then I would assume you do not really understand the way a lot of the clerics actually use purify. And remember, a lot of clerics stated they do not even bother with it. So I still do not really understand why people were complaining about it the way it was before. The only thing I can think of is that people put debuffs on people and couldn't kill them so they figured it was the clerics purifying that saved the characters. I use the AOE purify a lot as do some other clerics but mostly towards removing stuns, mutes, silence and sleep from other clerics and mages. Those skills on those classes can cause a very fast death. I also use it on myself when I have to try to run and have mspd down. I have the unique skill and that is all I used since you rarely have time to use both of them. I can't speak for others though.
I would agree with your suggestion on the single target purify and is what I was thinking. For the Unique Purify I would say that removing 3 debuffs is a compromise from what it was to what it is. I think a shorter distance is acceptable but 15m might be too short, so I suggest 20m. And the cooldown can remain as it is or be a bit shorter. Otherwise the skill is not worth getting and spending 7SP on. It would be ineffective as well, kind of like it is now.
It should make no difference if a cleric remains stationary during a war or runs around. You can't really hide in the crystal anymore so enemies can target you easily unless your team actually is defending you. And we have had our mspd nerfed in previous changes so it's not like we run around all the war either. And mspd gear giving no protection and the mspd nerf got rid of mspd clerics awhile ago. I play in or out of the crystal as the situation dictates. The heal spamming on crystal FS/charm clerics do not play anymore for points since they die too fast and the points have been altered. So where the cleric plays is not part of the purify equations.
Bowscouts can be pretty lethal given the right circumstances. However, one skill in particular that bothers me is the impact arrow skill. High skill power, always crits, it's cool and all, but the casting time is just so long. What's the point of using it if you could do three basic attack plus a phoenix arrow in the seconds it takes to launch one impact arrow, dealing more damage in the end?
Regardless they may need some slight buffs here and there as half the scout skill tree is useless (which I've already made a point about, if you'd go back a page).
Never said to beef up Clerics again. Our def is much lower, our mp usage is a lot higher, our mspd is low and we are surviving more or less. Back to dying more but that is how most want it to be. No other skills were mentioned for clerics other than the Purify, which was nerfed too dramatically.
Raiders are very strong with just using melee. All I was suggesting is that their melee skills be a bit lower and get them to use some of their skills. No other class can get all of the passives and rely on melee alone to be any good. If that were the case many other classes would be able to just use all their SP in passives and things to make themselves have a lot more def, AP, etc. But you are right, if no one else is ganging a cleric one raider alone might not be able to take them down, but the cleric would be focusing all their heals and defensive skills on themselves and not be support for the team. I don't think that is the criteria to decide if raiders should be changed a bit or not. Again, no class should be nerfed anymore but slight adjustments are what the Devs are looking into I believe.
And it has been said many times that bow scouts are not as effective in PVP as xbow and some other classes. So I guess that is why they were given the traps. I do know some Bow scouts who are very strong and do very well in CD. They have mspd to get away and camouflage. Maybe you need to state specific areas that you think they need to be altered to improve them. Unfortunately those really good bow scouts do make you wonder if it is just builds and stats that the weaker ones are missing atm. But there are skills that could be improved or added to maybe so give suggestions.
1 K for some and a lot more for others and we can feel the difference by a lot. So to some of us 1K is much but thanks for your clarification even though that was not the focus of my thread.....
I conducted a few build tests on a 180~ cleric. Sure it's not 100% the same but it went as followed:
Full CHA rest INT [wasn't a lot of INT due to AP shortage]
Gear: Reinf 180's. CHA 30/10[8's] mixed.
Effect: Big big heals, MP stability problems [relied on recovery from food / pots & mana flames]
Full CHA rest INT
Gear: Endowed 180's CHA 30/[10/8]s again
Effect: Still big heals, less of an MP issue. I could drop 1 mana flame for a slamander which felt like an increase to healing potential, still used a good amount of food + pots
50/50 CHA/INT
Gear: Endowed 180's 1/2 CHA 30/8's & 1/2 INT 14?/8's
Effect: Good sized heals, definitely capable of sustaining a group. Absolutely 0 mana problems.
All of those are my perception of a "dedicated healer". It's like that off-role cleric for CD's/Wars that keeps the buffer up. So it took the SP cost from buffs out, and placed them into Offhand passives and MP passives [regen not max mp].
Effectively the last build was completely spammable heals. And large enough to actually sustain play. The only issue was itself the lack of buffs. If a cleric like this ever got into a CD without a buffer, I'm sure he'd be taken out quickly, even with such a high block % + base def.
Sure, I'd like def to be higher for the above build, but that would ultimately make it superhuman in survival capability. If the above build didn't die, it could constantly keep the FS alive, while both threw out the party heals, inevitably allowing DPS to just keep going until the other side died out, ran out of MP, or gave up. So even without the Defense being as high as it was in the past when I played a FS + HS Cleri, it's still a solid support class.
If Clerics are having trouble surviving now, it's not directly because of the defense loss. If anything, I think it's the fact that there are less clerics overall in games, so there is less healing which in return makes it more difficult to survive especially if you are a lone cleric.
the reason why raiders dont use any skills because raiders dont have enough skill points (after getting the new passives) to get any any active skills worth using so they rely on melee attack.
1. a good cleric can easaly tank a raider without any problems.
2. if a aoe class lacks on accuracy its quite normal for raiders to easly dodge their attacks.
3. anyone mentioned bowscouts in this thread? they are quite weak compared to what they where before all these new skills.
my 2 cents in this endless discussion
Perhaps focus on the bugs next patch that would be awesome.
dont forget, raiders dont dodge now days , low hp low deff during CD they die instantly on aoe pool area. I think mage's aoe needs to be looked up
The reason a lot are dying in the AOE group situation is multiple fold but mostly it is the Champs Berzerk and mage AOEs. When the champs get together it is even worse..one berzerk after another. From my side as a healing cleric I can't keep the team, especially low def players like arti, bourg and bow scouts alive during one berzerk followed by another. Or one berzerk followed by mage AOEs. That is why I keep trying to get the group to spread out some and not hang out in the crystal or groups. But then that leaves you vulnerable to the large amounts of cloaked raiders.
And if you read my post Feuer, I was not complaining about the lower def on clerics now. I said we are surviving. And until you have played a FS cleric in a lot of CDs I don't think you can really speak to what is too little or too much of anything on the FS cleric. My build is pretty good, a lot say they are upset that I manage to survive a lot. I have played the FS cleric since the beginning of time in Rose. All the numbers that you put together are great but until you live it for awhile you will not really understand it and all the different scenarios that you come across. Oh and not all of us have 30/8 gear at least as high as you stated and I would never play with Charm gear alone....instant death. So those are not builds you actually put to the test in a good CD, those are what ifs. I can do that for every class but with all 3 builds you would be dead the majority of the game...therefore no support. But good news..you would have more than enough MP because you not only use less you will keep getting it back each time you die.
And I am thinking of all of the CDs that I have played in the last month or two. The way the cleric is now it is not fun being the lone cleric vs multiple clerics. And to be honest FS cleric is not that much fun in general anymore. But the other classes are being made much better and therefore a lot of FS clerics that were pretty good don't play them anymore. So there are less clerics in CD, etc. And we tend to go in at least groups of 2 so we can support each other. But some of us still stick to it because we like the class and feel that our team needs us.
Anyway, not trying to turn this into a cleric thread again. I was simply stating my experience so far in CDs with the purify, etc. changes and some other thoughts after a lot of CDs.
Clerics are more squishy now than ever. Before, I never wanted to target them since it would be a waste of time, cooldowns, and skills. Now, I'm quite confident I can nuke on most of them, though not as much as the other classes. Makes the clerics a much more viable target, and even more in need of allies' protection.
