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Beastmaster HP/Defense/Heals Discussion


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#1 Turniper

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 01:55 PM

Here I'll be taking any sort of suggestions from the other threads and post them up so that there can be a more focused discussion instead of people saying things over multiple threads. The focus here is to see what the community thinks should be done.
 For reference:
 
 

So, I did some simple calculations on the Defense stat just to show that life without 1Vit = 2Def isn't as scary as one may think.
 
The Defense formula is found here: http://forums.warppo...fence-formulas/
Defense%=Defense/((Defense*.01)+(Level*.35)+8.7)
*Level is calculated from 1-70 so if you are master level you would use 51-70
 
At Master Level 20 unbuffed, I have 1608 Vit and Osiris set gives 3442 base Def (we also all start with 1 base def I suppose).
 
My Current Stats (1Vit = 2Def)
Human: 6659 Def = 66.73%
Grizzly: 9988.5 Def = 75.05%
 
Hypothetical Scenario A (1Vit = 1Def)
Human: 5051 Def = 60.34% (-6.39%)
Grizzly: 7576.5 Def = 69.53% (-5.52%)
 
Hypothetical Scenario B (1Vit = 0Def)
Human: 3443 Def = 50.91% (-15.82%)
Grizzly: 5164.5 Def = 60.87% (-14.18%)

 

 
 

Spoiler

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More people seem to agree that BMs need a slight decrease in this aspect. I suggest that the 2 def per VIT should be changed to an HP boost. A suitable HP boost would be necessary so that this wouldn't be a major buff or nerf as HP scales in a linear fashion. Based on Arbalist's numbers above, we lose roughly 15% defense in both forms with the defense decrease. Going from taking 25% of original damage to 40% in grizzly and 35% to 50% in bear form means that a grizzly means that a grizzly bear will be taking roughly 56% more damage and a dps bear would take around 48% more damage than before the defense decrease. Based on this, we'd be taking around 50% more damage on average so in order to compensate for that loss, the HP gain would need to be increased by ~50%. Here are some suggestions:
 
1. A ~50% HP boost so 1 VIT= 22-23 HP. This makes sense because we're increasing damage by 50% so increasing damage capacity by 50% would be an even compensation. However, DoTs and damage penetration lower the value of defense so this would end up being a buff because DoTs would still be just as strong, but we have more damage capacity. Armor rips also get nerfed against us because we have less reliance on defense and more on HP. There's also other aspects to this because 50% more HP means 50% more self heals, though outside heals won't be worth as much in comparison. If this is the case then I'd suggest a slight decrease in cruel bite's healing.
 
2. A change to 1 VIT= 20 HP which would put us at 33% more damage capacity. This one is debatable. One could argue that we have only 33% more capacity to compensate for the 50% more damage taken, but it still shifts reliance from defense to HP which is more reliable. It may even be a slight buff, but there are so many factors and situations that the advantages/disadvantages would vary from situation to situation.
 
3. Tidus suggested 1 VIT= 17 HP above. That would put us at around 13% more capacity, which is definitely a nerf. This may be appropriate, but it may also be too drastic.

 

4. Keep it as it is. This is the easiest option for obvious reasons, but most people also disagree with it.

 

5. Any mix of the above options along with anything in between.

 

Based on everything up there and my own opinions, the second option would be best as it changes the direction of BMs to a more HP based class without really being a definite nerf. Based on Verinnes' post above, nerfing the damage of cruel bite to reduce it's over-effectiveness in grizzly form would be appropriate, but adding a second component that increases HP gain based on damage would compensate for the much lower heals in bear form because of the higher damage done by the DPS form.


Edited by Turniper, 04 April 2014 - 02:07 PM.

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#2 Arbalist

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:52 PM

Wasn't the suggestion in the VCR report for Vit to give both 1 Def and 20 HP? That would make it a ~6% drop in defense instead of ~15%. How does that affect the way option 2 is calculated? I was against the 20 HP boost because the 1 Def was still there, but if the entire Defense bonus was removed, then the HP bump to 20 is more reasonable to me after seeing it laid out like this.


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#3 Turniper

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 03:14 PM

Yeah, that was a mistake. Apparently the devs are thinking the same way too; BMs should focus more on HP and heals instead of defense and other damage mitigation.

 

Edited for clarity  :p_swt:


Edited by Turniper, 04 April 2014 - 05:26 PM.

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#4 Scribble92

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 10:18 PM

i rarely play anymore as i'm sick of doing the same thing day in and day out, however before anything happens you need to find out what is happening with hit.dodge. if you change the vit=2 def rate to an increased amount of HP its going to seriously impact on our survivability. cruel bite relies upon hitting an opponent in order to heal. unless you have stacked all points in agility the chances of this happening are pretty low seen as we are one of, if not the only class (i havent checked) that doesnt receive any hit from our weapon.


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#5 Verinne

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 12:47 AM

To start off, my stand is on option 4.

 

I'm fine with the current BM gameplay and in my opinion it doesn't need  too much overhaul. 

 

With the recent implementation of "Penetration" on Dayr, Osi Mobs & Osi Bosses, I think chopping up def to 0 or 1 in return for HP boost isn't necessary. And I believe those upcoming patches would also containing this penetration substats so might want to think about chopping it up and regret afterwards.

 

With regards to VIT:20HP,

 

Let me quote this from my post *since I put the effort of computing those lol!

 

Spoiler

 

Those are the HP I can get based on Animalicia's Formula. You can try it with your current stats but expect some short values, still, its close to what you have in-game. As you can see how high it can be and how high cruel bite's life leech can be. Nerfing cruel bite to even lower than 20% still gives facerolling values.

 

 


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#6 Turniper

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 04:45 AM

i rarely play anymore as i'm sick of doing the same thing day in and day out, however before anything happens you need to find out what is happening with hit.dodge. if you change the vit=2 def rate to an increased amount of HP its going to seriously impact on our survivability. cruel bite relies upon hitting an opponent in order to heal. unless you have stacked all points in agility the chances of this happening are pretty low seen as we are one of, if not the only class (i havent checked) that doesnt receive any hit from our weapon.

 

From what I've heard, they plan on adding hit onto STR and INT. We naturally get 2k+ from our gears so that may solve it depending on how much we get but I'm not so sure. The point I was trying to make is that less defense lowers our damage reduction, but more HP makes up for that by increasing the damage needed to kill us. A straight defense->HP won't necessarily make up for it exactly, but if the values are adjusted proportionally based on scaling then it won't be a problem. Here's an example with three different hypothetical players all with 0% dodge and parry:

 

Player 1: 20k HP,   0% defense- This player takes 100% of original damage.

Player 2: 10k HP, 50% defense- This player takes 50% of original damage.

Player 3:   5k HP, 75% defense- This player takes 25% of original damage.

 

If they're all fighting the same monster which does 1k damage per attack normally then the damage taken is proportional to their HP so it would take the same amount of time for them to die. But then that's not counting other things like damage penetration which would lower the effectiveness of the third player the most and the first player the least, and then there are dots which ignore defense completely as is.

 

To start off, my stand is on option 4.

 

I'm fine with the current BM gameplay and in my opinion it doesn't need  too much overhaul. 

 

With the recent implementation of "Penetration" on Dayr, Osi Mobs & Osi Bosses, I think chopping up def to 0 or 1 in return for HP boost isn't necessary. And I believe those upcoming patches would also containing this penetration substats so might want to think about chopping it up and regret afterwards.

 

With regards to VIT:20HP,

 

Let me quote this from my post *since I put the effort of computing those lol!

 

Those are the HP I can get based on Animalicia's Formula. You can try it with your current stats but expect some short values, still, its close to what you have in-game. As you can see how high it can be and how high cruel bite's life leech can be. Nerfing cruel bite to even lower than 20% still gives facerolling values.

 

I get that the HP can get really high, but up above it explains why it's balanced out. It's trading defense for HP in a balanced amount that will effect balance, but not in a way that nerfs or buffs the class. This just shifts the BM from a high reliance on defense and HP to more reliance on higher HP. Also, from the notes we've received, the devs originally wanted to increase BM effectiveness, but feel that the changes they made only lowered our differentiation from other tank classes.

 

The idea here isn't to lower or raise BMs on the balance scale, just to change the focus to something more agreeable because right now we have the highest defense and HP out of all tank classes.


Edited by Turniper, 05 April 2014 - 04:52 AM.

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#7 Arbalist

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 09:27 AM

Some of the reasons I wouldn't want to increase HP any further.
-Life leech from Cruel Bite and heals from Survival and any % based heals will be even bigger.
-Potions will heal a smaller portion of our HP, unless the heal bonus scales with our HP.
-Normal heals will recover a smaller portion of our HP
-Penetration is there, but our current overall tankiness already mitigates it so if we keep similar total tankiness then it'll impact us only a little bit more
-Graham potion HP boost will be less significant

-If hit is fixed, Cruel Bite becomes even more reliable than it is already and could be extremely difficult to counter
-The high HP difference might mean stronger boss attacks are needed to deal same % damage to us as other tanks, but the ones who actually suffer are the squishy classes. Devs will have to be careful in making damage hurt us significantly, while making it survivable by squishies.

However there are positives to increasing HP while decreasing Def too, so let's list some out
-The reverse of everything listed above can be said here (% based heals can be lowered, potion and static heals are more effective)
-More distinction between Vit and Agi builds (and maybe Str builds in the future)
-Each marginal increase of Defense is more effective so we get more out of Def hones.
-Big numbers~
-There's more but I just woke up and can't think T^T

Str/Int for Hit is an interesting proposition..but I'm not sure it gets to the underlying problem which is the disparity between stats between classes. Beyond the fact that we have different Int/Str totals,
-Doesn't Str/Int also increase Parry? Would Hit/Parry suffer the same way as Hit/Dodge because they are tied to the same stats?
-What happens to classes that have their Int wiped out (BMs for example)? Would we lose out on Int stats that are gained from cards, titles, hones?
-Will this fix hit from the monster side as well? Currently our high HP and Def is also backed up by an invisible high Dodge rate. Bosses need to hit me hard/frequently enough that I can't rely solely on Cruel Bite and healers will be needed.

The 23rd can't come soon enough.


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#8 Turniper

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 10:46 AM

Some of the reasons I wouldn't want to increase HP any further.
-Life leech from Cruel Bite and heals from Survival and any % based heals will be even bigger.
-Potions will heal a smaller portion of our HP, unless the heal bonus scales with our HP.
-Normal heals will recover a smaller portion of our HP
-Penetration is there, but our current overall tankiness already mitigates it so if we keep similar total tankiness then it'll impact us only a little bit more
-Graham potion HP boost will be less significant
-If hit is fixed, Cruel Bite becomes even more reliable than it is already and could be extremely difficult to counter
-The high HP difference might mean stronger boss attacks are needed to deal same % damage to us as other tanks, but the ones who actually suffer are the squishy classes. Devs will have to be careful in making damage hurt us significantly, while making it survivable by squishies.

However there are positives to increasing HP while decreasing Def too, so let's list some out
-The reverse of everything listed above can be said here (% based heals can be lowered, potion and static heals are more effective)
-More distinction between Vit and Agi builds (and maybe Str builds in the future)
-Each marginal increase of Defense is more effective so we get more out of Def hones.
-Big numbers~
-There's more but I just woke up and can't think T^T

 
Well there are a lot of things that should be considered.
 
-The % increase in HP would increase our heals by the same % so it's all proportional in that regard. We take twice as much damage, but we have twice as much gain from our heals. The bigger numbers are all around so we're just changing them all by the same proportion. Going back to my previous example:
 
Player 1: 20k HP,   0% defense- This player takes 100% of original damage.
Player 2: 10k HP, 50% defense- This player takes 50% of original damage.
Player 3:   5k HP, 75% defense- This player takes 25% of original damage.
 
An attack that does 6k originally would do around 30% damage to each of those players. A cruel bite hit heals 30% of HP so 100% of the damage taken is healed up for all of them. Say the attack does 12k damage. After defense calculations, each player takes 60% of their HP as damage and it would take two cruel bites for a full heal on all the players. Overall, the % values are the same for all players despite Player 1 having 4x Player 3's HP. This is what I mean by a proportional increase of HP to compensate for the lowered defense.
 
-Non % based heals won't be worth as much, but that's why BMs have always had the most effective self heals. Depending on how PvE plays out, our heals may not even be necessary if there's a healer on us if our HP and defense are kept as is. Another side to this is that DoTs ignore defense as is, so each player in the above example would take the same amount of damage from dots. That gives Player 1 a definite advantage.
 
-Any other flat HP boosts would be less significant percentage-wise, but we already have the greatest HP modifier. And at the same time, flat defense boosts would be more effective so it balances out in a way.
 
I won't put this in the reports until there's a general agreement. A lot of thought went into this based on experience and talking to other tanks, so I'm in support of this, but if you have any concerns about this then fire-away and hopefully we can reach an agreement. For now, VCR reports will just have bug/skill fixes along with Ymir Form/Bear Carnival being usable in grizzly form somehow.
 

Str/Int for Hit is an interesting proposition..but I'm not sure it gets to the underlying problem which is the disparity between stats between classes. Beyond the fact that we have different Int/Str totals,
-Doesn't Str/Int also increase Parry? Would Hit/Parry suffer the same way as Hit/Dodge because they are tied to the same stats?
-What happens to classes that have their Int wiped out (BMs for example)? Would we lose out on Int stats that are gained from cards, titles, hones?
-Will this fix hit from the monster side as well? Currently our high HP and Def is also backed up by an invisible high Dodge rate. Bosses need to hit me hard/frequently enough that I can't rely solely on Cruel Bite and healers will be needed.

The 23rd can't come soon enough.


This may just be a band-aid fix because the formula is broken, but it'll give everyone significantly more hit because everyone gets a lot more STR/INT from gear than AGI. I don't think hit/parry would have the same problems because they don't affect each other the same way hit and dodge do and I'm not sure if monsters have their own STR/INT values or if they even compare to ours so this may or may not increase mob/boss hit rate.

 

This may all be pointless in the face of the great balance fix of April 23 tbh xD


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#9 Greven79

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:35 PM

Edit - 07/23/2014: Although I think noone really cares, I shortened (at least a bit) & edited the reply

(I also including the correct defense bonus for Grizzly Form - thanks Arbalist).

 

First of all: Compared with the other VCRs, the beastmaster report is in the top ranks, not meaning that it's great, but it's not as crappy as other reports.

The main reason is that - unlike the egocentric whining of the Knights - it at least determines and names some major concerns.

However, to agree with the determined issues doesn't imply that the conclusing stays uncontested.

 

Defense:

In general, observing certain balancing issues doesn't mean that the work is done. It's a difficult process that includes the following points:

  • Verifying the input
  • Determine the cause
  • Try different Point-of-views
  • Look at the big picture
  • Optional: Repeat the process with probable changes

In case of the beastmaster: Just because the BMs have a 75% defense rate, it doesn't mean anything if not seen within the right context. The existence of a bullet-proof vest doesn't inbalance a game per se. If you value this to be a balancing issue, there has to be a reason. Possible points for an inbalance are:

  • Comparison between two classes
  • Comparison between two types of equipment
  • Comparsion between damage and defense rate
  • Affects different class-builds
  • Doesn't leave much room for improvements.
  • increase is too high

...and maybe some other.

 

Defense:

Yes, the beastmaster gets a 'free' defense bonus for every point of VIT now. But does it create an inbalance?

 

Pre-AoV situation - Just the Gear = no skills:

Colo Gear - Monk = 618

Colo Gear - BM/ = 927 {+50%]

Colo Gear - Warrior = 1238 [+100%]

Colo Gear - Knight = 1238 + 589 = 1827 [+195% due to the shield]

 

Post-AoV situation - Just the Gear = no skills:

Osiris Gear - Monk: 1720

Osiris Gear - BM: 3442 [+100% ]

Osiris Gear - Warrior: 6885 [+300%]

Osiris Gear - Kight: 6885 + 442 = 7327 [+318%]

 

The ranking hasn't changed, but the Knight Shield hasn't scaled well. The percentual difference however is significant (values in brackets)!

 

The percentual difference is so important, because skills usually modify the defense by a certain percentual value.

  • the Monk's Steel Body grants +200% defense... which totally negating the 195% defense difference towards the knight pre-AoV. Right now, the difference is more than 320%.
     
  • The Warrior's Defender skill raises the defense by 30%. Pre-AoV, the total defense was still lower than the defense of a Knight. Because the defense of the knight's shield hasn't scaled at all, the Warrior can now be better than a knight.

Nonetheless, never forget that skills require skillpoints. That means that both the Monk and the Warrior have to spend, what a Knight get's for 'free' (without skill points).

 

 

Post-AoV situation - +2 defense per VIT:

The beastmaster's VIT bonus for the complete Osiris set = 960 VIT. This results in +1920 defense.

 

Osiris Gear - Knight: 7327 defense vs.3442 defense => Knight wins with 3885 points

 

Osiris Gear - BM:  3442 defense +1920 defense via VIT = 5362 defense

Osiris Gear - BM (Grizzly):  5362 defense + 50% from Grizzly Form = 8043 defense

 

Result: The overall defense bonus the beastmaster gets are 4600 points. Due to the missing defense increase for the Knight's shield, the beastmaster can achieve a better defense than a Knight.

 

Other considerations:

Seed Runes

+50% runes in all gear parts would raise the VIT by another 480pts = +960 defense.

 

Stat points

Spending 276 statpoints in vitality = +550 defense.

 

Honing, Cards, titles, buffs

Well, of course there are other 'free' boni as well, further increasing the defense bonus.

 

Refinement

Because a refinement is based purely on the starting defense of the gear part, Knights and Warriors do receive twice the refinement bonus in comparison to a beastmaster, and four times the bonus than a Monk. With a total defense bonus of 250%, a fully refined Osiris gear set would have these values:

 

Osiris Gear - Monk: 1720 + 250% = 6020 [a plus of 4300pts]

Osiris Gear - BM: 3442 + 250% = 12047 [a plus of 8605pts]

Osiris Gear - Warrior: 6885 + 250% = 24097 [a plus of 17212pts]

Osiris Gear - Kight:  7327 + 250% = 25644 [a plus of 18317pts]

 

Conclusion:

Although the additional defense bonus has eliminated the defense gap between the beastmaster and the knight, possibly putting the beastmaster into the leading position, the class-specific bonuses have created another gap instead. The Knight gets a 'free' Parry bonus instead, whereas the Warrior gets more ATK.

 

That means that the Parry bonus of the Knight could still result in a better defense... in terms of damage taken.

 

Due to the high refinement bonus, an increases in defense via VIT seem negligible.

 

Fully refined Osiris Gear - Grizzly: 12047 +1920 via Osiris-VIT +550 via statpoints + 960 via seedrunes = 15477 => +50% Grizzly Form = 23215 defense

Fully refined Osiris Gear - Kight:  25644

 

That means that the refinement bonus puts the Knight ahead of the BM, even without the assumable defense adjustment for the Knight's shield.

 

So my final conclusion is that although the defense rate seems to be problematic, it a whining over like 75% vs. 77% defense rate.

 

PS: Defense Rate

The current formula is horrific. It's possible to achieve more than 75% defense rate and it's impossible to get below 34%.

Therefore, it should be THE priority fix to adjust this formula. [Edit: I still have to highlight this]

 

PS: Suggestion

Remove ALL the class-specific stat bonuses!


Edited by Greven79, 23 July 2014 - 07:48 AM.

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#10 Arbalist

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:07 PM

First off I'm just gonna say I haven't read your post in its entirety yet, but in case anyone else intends to, you should edit in that Grizzly Form when maxed out already gives +50% Defense. The 50% is applied after Vit defense, so it's (3442+1920)*1.5 = 8043 minimum Defense for Grizzly Form Osiris. All arguments would assume we use current formulas because that's what we have. Also can't forget overall Defensive ability needs to consider Parry, Dodge, HP, Defense, and I suppose HP Regen too. If you did include these arguments, then I apologies ahead of time.


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#11 Greven79

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:59 PM

Edit - 23/07/2014: Shortened a bit, but still valid.

 

I forgot the healing part >_>

 

You're perfectly right with your statement about Cruel Bite being too good.

 

If you read the skill description, it already states the problem: "Recovers your HP by 30% of the damage".

 

Fact is that it recovers 30% of your total HP instead.

____________________

 

I'd like to replace Survival as well.

 

Although there was an reasonless downtalking by the Knights, the pre-AoV situation was:

 

Knight - Aura Heal 18% / 20sec = 108% after 120sec

Beastmaster - Survival 20% / 40sec = 60% after 120sec

Warrior - Tension Relax 60% / 120sec = 60% after 120sec

Mages - Water Emblem 5% / 10sec = 60% after 120sec

Monk zero (but the only tank with a cooldown reset skill)

 

Surprisingly, the Knight had by far the best healing capabilities. What's also interesting is the fact that Wizards and Sorcerer could actually compete.

 

And the Wizard'is Water Emblem is the skill effect that I want the beastmaster to get => a constant HoT (even including the damage reduction and/or SP regen.)

 

IMO, this would make more sense flavorwise, as this represents the regeneration abilities assossiated witw lycanthropy. It doesn't require any actions, so it would be effective, even when the beastmaster is stunned, but the main reason is that I would give the current survival to the Knight instead.

 

 


Edited by Greven79, 23 July 2014 - 07:55 AM.

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#12 Greven79

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:20 PM

First off I'm just gonna say I haven't read your post in its entirety yet, but in case anyone else intends to, you should edit in that Grizzly Form when maxed out already gives +50% Defense.

 

Thanks for the correct percentage of Grizzly Form... I've corrected that.

 

I haven't added Parry or Dodge, but refinement instead. It's hard to guess the impact, but there seems to be no advantage for the BM in neither parry nor dodge.


Edited by Greven79, 23 July 2014 - 07:58 AM.

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#13 Arbalist

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:35 PM

It would be nice if Survival was more useful. In contrast to your HoT suggestion, I always wanted Survival to be a larger burst heal at a higher cooldown instead. Our previously low defenses meant huge fluctuations in HP and 20% didn't scream survive to me, especially when I can pop an Explorer Pot instead. Post AOV however, the effectiveness of Cruel Bite rendered it pretty much non-existent, though I know that some still use it in their builds.

Dodge and Parry should be straightforward probability calculations if the formulas were known (and fixed). Whether they are high or low, they still have an impact to overall defensive ability as it gives damage mitigation over-time.

The point on HP Regeneration is in regards to in combat healing from Cruel Bite and Survival. In the most basic (and unrealistic) of examples, take a Monk that receives 500 damage per second and BM that takes 750 due to lower defense rates. If the BM can heal 250 HP per second, then overall they both take 500 damage per second.

And on the side, realistically if a Wizard were to have Water Emblem on full-time (which you didn't see much of prior to AOV SP-consumption issues), they would also be using Seal Explosion every 2 minutes to supplement their healing. There also isn't a need to max Water Emblem to enjoy the full benefits of Seal Explosion which is the primary means of HP regeneration.


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#14 Turniper

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 07:42 PM

I come back to this thread after a few hours and get a wall =w=

 

Anyway, first thing about the report is that we decided to leave out any balance changes until the 23rd, that's why it's just bug reports and one popular request that gives more options to tank builds. Nothing we do here on the forums short of a riot on the release of patch notes will change what the devs have planned for us then. 

 

If you guys want, we can keep you updated on what exactly ends up happening to Beastmasters as we find out but for now here's what we know:

 

-I already mentioned STR/INT getting hit. It's not known how much, if this means that hit on AGI will be changed, or if it'll even be a significant fix for the current hit rates. This will definitely help VIT based builds because we get a lot of STR from gear, but as stated in the previous sentence, I've no idea if this'll even help significantly. "Accuracy calculation change" was also a point added so we can hope for the best.

 

-For Beastmasters, the notes said that they originally wanted to improve on the BM's pre-AoV role as a high HP sub-tanker, but the extra defense made us too similar to other tanks so they want to make us into high HP main tanks with more reliance on said high HP. It's sort of stated that the defense bonus will be changed to HP, but there's a much bigger emphasis on "HP effectiveness." This could mean anything really so we'll just have to wait and see.

 

-Healing will be adjusted. No idea by how much but as the tank with the most heals and reliance on heals, it's safe to assume our heals will be adjusted.

 

Forgot about the healing part >_>

 

You're perfectly right with your statement about Cruel Bite being too good.

 

If you read the skill description, it already says how to fix it: It reads: "Recovers your HP by 30% of the damage".

This means that it's not shouldn't care about your maximum HPs, but about the damage dealt.

The developers were just not good enough to implement it as written.

____________________

 

I'd like to replace Survival as well.

 

Although there was an reasonless downtalking by the Knights, the pre-AoV situation was:

 

Knight - Aura Heal 18% every 20sec = 108% after 120sec

Beastmaster - Survival 20% every 40sec = 60% after 120sec (+ heals other; no combat required)

Warrior - Tension Relax 60% every 120sec = 60% after 120sec (long 'cooldown' between 2 heals, but the best recovery in 20sec)

Mages - Water Emblem 5% every 10sec = 60% after 120sec (+10% damage reduction, heals SP as well, no combat required)

Monk zero (but the only tank with a cooldown reset skill)

 

 

Surprisingly, the Knight had by far the best healing capabilities.

What is even more interesting is the fact that Wizards and Sorcerer could actually compete...

Their healing aura would heal the same amount, spreaded equally over the 120sec period.

 

And this is the effect that I want the beastmaster to get... a constant HoT (maybe even including the damage reduction and/or SP regen.)

Since the healing got better for all tank classes (it's now 30% every 30sec for the BM), the new skill should be also improved:

  • 2% HP recovery per level (every 10sec) => 12% HP recovery at level 6 => 20% HP recovery at level 10

If level 10 would stay the maximum, the level 7 to 10 would compensate that Vigor affected the 'original' Survival.

 

IMO, this would make more sense flavorwise, as this represents the regeneration abilities assossiated witw lycanthropy.

It doesn't require any actions, so it would be effective, even when the beastmaster is stunned,

but the main reason is that I would give the current survival to the Knight instead (with a lower diameter and general effectiveness).

 

Yeah, there was a lot more and this is the part I'm picking >.>

 

-It's safe to say that cruel bite was implemented as intended pre-AoV. Heals based on damage are complete crap which gets me to my next point.

 

-The reason why knight heal was the worst is because it was based on damage dealt. So really they had the worst heal. In fact, their heal was so bad that they weren't considered to have a heal and most knights preferred to leave it empty.

 

There are a lot of reasons why things are messed up, but if you're comparing tank classes, then Beastmasters definitely take the top position with the best heals, nearly highest defense, highest HP, and high damage.

 

tbh, there's quite a bit to discuss there and so many different solutions, but once more is known (soon hopefully) about the new balance update, it would be best to discuss improvement based on the new build than the current one which, for all we know, will be completely different when the patch comes.


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#15 Arbalist

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 11:25 PM

@Turniper, you're obviously not allowed to leave the bear cave :3

Anyways, I felt it was awkward to compare Defense based on just the Defense value so I'm going to post my calculations on Defense Rates instead. These calculations only factor in +0 Osiris gears. Obviously, considering additional Vit bonuses, BMs will go a bit higher, but not too much. From highest to lowest, they are as such:

  1. Warrior (Defender 1.3 Modifier) - 72.94% - 8950.5 Defense
  2. BM Grizzly (Vit = 2 Def, 1.5 Modifier) - 70.78% - 8043 Defense
  3. Knight - 68.82% - 7327 Defense
  4. Warrior - 67.47%
  5. BM Grizzly (Vit = 1 Def, 1.5 Modifier) - 66.54%
  6. Monk (Steel + Iron, 3.5 Modifier) - 64.45% - 6020 Defense
  7. BM - 61.76%
  8. BM Grizzly (Vit = 0 Def, 1.5 Modifier) - 60.86%
  9. BM (Vit = 1 Def) - 57.01%
  10. BM (Vit = 0 Def) - 50.90% (Also Ranger, Rogue, Assassin, Crescentia)
  11. Monk (1.1 Modifier) - 36.30% 
  12. Priest, Wizard, Sorcerer, Soulmaker - 34.13%

The differences aren't as big as they seem from the Defense Value disparity because of the way the current defense formula works. A Tank Warrior is only about 13% (72.94/64.45) better than the Tank Monk, ignoring Aura Armor mitigation. However, there is the issue where a DPS Warrior is still better than the Monk I guess. 

Under Greven's criteria, I would see this as a balancing issue due to 5/6 of the reasons he listed out:

  • Comparison between two classes
  • Comparison between two types of equipment
  • Affects different class-builds
  • Doesn't leave much room for improvements.
  • increase is too high

Again, I still haven't fully digested Greven's post, and I probably won't since he made so many points I'm not sure I'd be on the same page as him even if I tried. Will just be here to provide clarifications where possible. If you want to check my work, I'll try to set up my file online once I have time.


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#16 Turniper

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:54 AM

A big part of it is % damage taken though. Even if we don't have the highest defense, our high HP makes it so that the damage taken is smaller by comparison to our HP despite actually being higher. I did calculations on this back before AoV with BM knight and war and found that when just looking at defense and HP, Knights had the lowest damage taken in comparison to HP overall. They were followed by BMs and then warriors. At the time, because of their second highest HP and high defense, monks probably would have been first if I had included them. There's a lot here and I'm pretty tired so the point I'm trying to make is that when comparing multiple classes, there's a lot more to compare than just one stat. By looking at a class overall, we can see what needs to change so the class as a whole is balanced with other classes, and not just one aspect. The overall opinion is that Beastmasters are overpowered because we are an HP/regen based tank class, which translates directly to high HP, good heals, moderate damage mitigation, and low damage with high threat, but that's not the case and having heavy weights in all of those aspects is clearly unbalanced.

 

Another thing is that while looking at defense rates, you get a more accurate picture by looking at % of damage taken and not % of damage negated as it makes the small differences more apparent. Looking at someone with 80% defense vs someone with 79% defense, it doesn't look like much of a difference since the difference is only 1% of original damage. When you flip it around though, one person is taking 20% damage while the other is taking 21% damage. From this you can see that the person with the lower defense is taking 5% more damage which can be quite a bit if the boss' original damage done before deductions is high.


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#17 Arbalist

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 01:20 AM

Pretty much. It shouldn't even be the player's job to figure out these numbers and there's always the possibility of us spreading false information too. I know I skipped over a lot of the nitty-gritty calculations too and am nowhere near determining overall defense which incorporates all factors, but when I see stuff like Monks having several times less Defense, it seems better to point out additional info so that it isn't mistaken as the be-all-end-all truth. At the end of the day, it's just killing time until we know what the developers' will do. I haven't even logged onto my BM in days as the game has nothing worth doing anymore.


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#18 Greven79

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 04:54 AM

Edit: Although I think noone cares anymore, I added the missing 50% defense bonus from Grizzly Form - thanks Arbalist ! - into the pre-AoV calculation and restructured the reply.

 

Pre AoV - percentual hitpoint differences:

Monk +35% hp

Knight / Warrior +20% hp

Beastmaster +65% hp

 

That means that the percentual HP difference between a beastmaster and a Knight is 1.65 / 1.20 = 0.375 => 37.5% increase

 

Result: 37.5%

 

Pre AoV - percentual Defense Rate differences

Because i don't have exact numbers, I assume the easiest formula... a linear increase without any starting value.

To make it easy, I assume 44 def-value = 1% def-rate, because AFAIK that as an easy calculation for crit.chance, etc as well.

Comparing Colo Gear:

 

Monk 2163 defense = 49%

Knight 1827 defense = 41.5%

Warrior w. Defender 1609 defense = 36.5%

Beastmaster 1390 defense = 31%

 

In order to transform damage reduction into hitpoints, the formula is:

hitpoint  = 1 / (1 - defense_rate)

Beastmaster 31% defense rate = +44.9% HP (hitpoints = 1 / (1 - 0.31) = 1.449 = 144.9% = +44.9%)

Knight 41.5% defense rate = +71% HP (hitpoints = 1 / (1 - 0.415) = 1.71 = 171% = +71%)
 

Between 71% and 44.9% there is a 17.9% difference (1.71 / 1.45 = 1.179 = 117.9% = +17.9%)

 

Result 17,9%

 

Conclusion:

Although the Beastmaster has 37,5% more hitpoints, the defense malus would justify only for a 17.9% difference.

Therefore, the Beastmaster wins against the Knight.

 

This hresult however excludes other reasons that could cause this difference: A monk f.e. had the best defense and still a higher hitpoint total then any other tank, but he had no healing skills and a lower dodge rate.

 

For the beastmaster, the additional hitpoints but low defense resulted a drawback in some aspects: Most skills, pots, etc. only healed a certain amount of hitpoints, not a percentual value. That means that it would require more Heals, Highness Heals, etc. to fully heal a beastmaster than it would take to bring a Knight back to 100% HP.

 

_____________________________________

 

Post AoV - percentual hitpoint differences:

Stays the same

 

Result: 37.5%

 

Post AoV - percentual defense rate differences

 

To compare a Warrior and a Beastmaster post AoV, I'll use these values:

 

  • Warrior (Defender 1.3 Modifier) - 72.94% - 8950.5 Defense
  • BM Grizzly (Vit = 2 Def, 1.5 Modifier) - 70.78% - 8043 Defense
  • BM Grizzly (Vit = 1 Def, 1.5 Modifier) - 66.54% 
  • BM - 61.76%

 

2 DEF per VIT = 72.94% vs. 70.78% => Beastmaster could get a 30% hitpoint bonus

1 DEF per VIT = 72.94% vs. 66.54% => beastmaster could get a 48% hitpoint bonus

0 DEF per VIT = 72.94% vs. 61.76% => beastmaster could get a 70% hitpoint bonus

 

Result: 30%

 

Conclusion:

The beastmaster gets a 37,5% hitpoint bonus, although the lack of defense would only allow for 30%.

That's quite a balanced situation and a lot better than pre-AoV, but only if the DEF bonus per VIT is included.

 

So keep in mind that the Warrior still gets a different class-specific (ATK) bonus that isn't used for the calculation. Therefore, the question would be whether the 37,5% <=> 30% discrepancy (that includes the DEF bonus) outweights the ATK bonus of a Warrior. I don't think so.


Edited by Greven79, 23 July 2014 - 06:28 AM.

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#19 Arbalist

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:54 AM

You forgot to include the defense bonus of Grizzly Form in your Colo Gear section. It's probably not a good idea to do the pre-AOV analysis if you don't have the actual numbers. Beastmasters were also intended to have higher Defense post-AOV (thought not this stupidly high) precisely because the HP bonus wasn't enough to compensate for the low defenses in pre-AOV. Master level gear was upgraded after the class bonus patch if I remember correctly because people complained too much.

In your post-AOV analysis, you should be using BM Grizzly (Vit = 0 Def, 1.5 Modifier) - 60.86% instead of BM - 61.76%. You might want to take Turniper's suggestion to in the second paragraph above your immediate post to look at damage differences. I'm not actually sure which method is better, I don't really care to be honest, I'm no math expert so I wouldn't be able to judge. 


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#20 Greven79

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 09:20 AM

It would be nice if Survival was more useful. In contrast to your HoT suggestion, I always wanted Survival to be a larger burst heal at a higher cooldown instead. Our previously low defenses meant huge fluctuations in HP and 20% didn't scream survive to me, especially when I can pop an Explorer Pot instead. Post AOV however, the effectiveness of Cruel Bite rendered it pretty much non-existent, though I know that some still use it in their builds.

 

Well, the HP fluctuations should be observed in a percentual manner.

 

My suggestion to exchange Survival with a Water Emblem pendant would at least remove the necessity to activate this skill.

 

I don't want another Coluseo Heal or Spinel Pot alternative. If a hidden Assassin was able to lower your HP by 75%, there shouldn't be an easy way to outheal it.

The Priests did well in Coloseum reason because they had a powerful HoT AND could reset their hp total once in a while.

 

As a Priest, I can tell you that the Coloseo Heal wasn't that necessary in raids either. If a boss AoE has dropped the HPs of all raid member to 10% HP,  it was perfectly fine and flavorful. Most of these special attacks could be predicted (visual effect) and avoided. If not, there was still enough time to heal before another AoE was casted.

 

Dodge and Parry should be straightforward probability calculations if the formulas were known (and fixed). Whether they are high or low, they still have an impact to overall defensive ability as it gives damage mitigation over-time.

 

At least, the Dodge/Hit formula should be restricted to a min 50% / max 100% range instead.

  • If both the dodge value and the hit value are equal, this should result in a  75% hit chance,
  • no matter how high your dodge rate is, the hit chance shouldn't drop below 50% (at least if both sides have the same level)
  • no matter how high your hit rate is, you shouldn't be able to reach a 100% hit chance.
  • both extremes should be affected by declining benefits (similar to parry rates near the cap)

There is simply a reason, why even the most terrifying bosses have tons of hitpoints, but can't dodge. It just feels better to do SOME damage than to have 90% misses.

 

The point on HP Regeneration is in regards to in combat healing from Cruel Bite and Survival. In the most basic (and unrealistic) of examples, take a Monk that receives 500 damage per second and BM that takes 750 due to lower defense rates. If the BM can heal 250 HP per second, then overall they both take 500 damage per second.

 

That's the main reason, why I want the BM to have a constant HP regeneration in form of a Water Emblem. If would constantly heal a small portion of the damage taken, resulting in a sort of damage reduction against normal attacks.

 

Against finishers (f.e. a Monk's Guillotine Fist), this skill wouldn't be useful of course BUT the beastmaster can still make use of his protection skills, a higher hitpoint total and pots.

 

And on the side, realistically if a Wizard were to have Water Emblem on full-time (which you didn't see much of prior to AOV SP-consumption issues), they would also be using Seal Explosion every 2 minutes to supplement their healing. There also isn't a need to max Water Emblem to enjoy the full benefits of Seal Explosion which is the primary means of HP regeneration.

 

Personally, I don't like the Wizard to have Seal Explosion. Since the Wizard already can already freeze the enemies or get 100% damage reduction, there is no real point in being able to heal large amounts of hitpoints. That makes the other skills I've mentioned quite worthless.

 

I prefer the Wizard to be more like a Ranger.... and the latter has no healing skill whatsoever and was never close to be underwhelming.

 

I already mentioned STR/INT getting hit. It's not known how much, if this means that hit on AGI will be changed, or if it'll even be a significant fix for the current hit rates. This will definitely help VIT based builds because we get a lot of STR from gear, but as stated in the previous sentence, I've no idea if this'll even help significantly. "Accuracy calculation change" was also a point added so we can hope for the best.

 

-For Beastmasters, the notes said that they originally wanted to improve on the BM's pre-AoV role as a high HP sub-tanker, but the extra defense made us too similar to other tanks so they want to make us into high HP main tanks with more reliance on said high HP. It's sort of stated that the defense bonus will be changed to HP, but there's a much bigger emphasis on "HP effectiveness." This could mean anything really so we'll just have to wait and see.

 

-Healing will be adjusted. No idea by how much but as the tank with the most heals and reliance on heals, it's safe to assume our heals will be adjusted.

 

- Adding Hit on another stat like STR  or INT won't do the trick. It only makes AGI builds less viable and favors STR builds. Because some classes already get STR-related class-bonuses, the inbalance might even get more severe. F.e. right now, you can be sure that a Warrior either deals more damage OR has a better hit chance, not both. My warrior would benefit greatly, as I can now amplify both my damage, critical damage AND my hit-rate.... resulting in sure insta-kills...

 

- Reducing the defense of a Beastmaster doesn't hurt, but I don't like to get more HPs in return. I was praying for a full removal of class-based benefits for a good reason.. I was - by most parts - happy with the pre-AoV situation. Instead of implementing class-specific stat bonuses, the devs should have adjusted some skills and included the bonuses there.

 

-The reason why knight heal was the worst is because it was based on damage dealt. So really they had the worst heal. In fact, their heal was so bad that they weren't considered to have a heal and most knights preferred to leave it empty.

 

-It's safe to say that cruel bite was implemented as intended pre-AoV. Heals based on damage are complete crap which gets me to my next point.

 

I doubt that Aura Heal was based on damage. The skill basically said: 2% heal per level per Aura, resulting in a maximum of 18%.

If the skill would be based on the damage dealt, what value to start with? Your full ATK?

 

Healing based on the amount of damage isn't useless. The Fireball DoT that is based on the initial damage. So just imagine that it would be a Heal-over-Time instead.


Edited by Greven79, 23 July 2014 - 08:26 AM.

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#21 Turniper

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:38 AM

Lots of stuff there, I agree with most of it but some points that I don't like:

 

-Activated healing skills can be used when HP is low. The reason why they're much more effective than a HoT is that you're not always using them. There was a huge dynamic in the old raids where healers had to heal the whole party, including themselves, and pots weren't as viable as they are now. For whatever reason, you couldn't always rely on outside heals and that was when self heals would have the best benefit. This may not be a problem now, but back then timing was important for instant AoE one shots and many times, only the tank was expected to survive. Anyone could tank bosses most of the time, but being able to survive through those situations ny knowing when to make the best use of your defensive skills is what made good tanks.

 

-The same sort of thing that I mentioned for BMs, they plan on doing for all classes so classes will have more specialized roles based on enemy defense and penetration. Class bonuses are awkward right now, but with the coming class changes, it'll definitely be a way to help with the "role specialization" if implemented in the right way. The notes actually seemed the most clear on what their intentions for BMs were, but vague on the details with "increasing HP effectiveness" being the only thing to go off of.

 

-Aura Heal: I knew knights pre-AoV that said the heals were negligible and the general consensus is that it was a useless skill when the points could be put towards better damage mitigation. Heals based on damage can be good, but the percentage on aura heal is pretty low, and tank classes didn't have nearly as much damage pre-AoV as they do now. Cruel bite on average did around 500 damage in full colo gear and 10% of that is negligible. It may not have been implemented as intended, but the end result definitely put BMs on par with other tanks in early raids and above nearly all but the most p2w tanks in PvP.

 

 


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#22 Greven79

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 11:06 AM

There are a lot of reasons why things are messed up, but if you're comparing tank classes, then Beastmasters definitely take the top position with the best heals, nearly highest defense, highest HP, and high damage.

 

The healing ought to be fixed, that's right.

 

But having more hitpoints than any other classes and almost the same defense isn't an issue for me. Because those classes get their other benefits instead (ATK boost, parry, etc.)

 

All the time, it seems like the Beastmaster is the only class with a stat beneft... and that this benefit makes him unbalanced. Noone seems to put the defense bonus in relation to other specials, like the free ATK boost  for the Warrior...

 

Pre-AoV, my Warrior ALWAYS had a higher Parry rate than a Knight, thanks to defender. Right now, the Knights eliminated the gap.. Am I pissed? Do I call this an inbalance? - Of course not... because my Warrior got an ATK bonus instead.

 

 

The real question is, whether the bonuses are balanced or not. And this brings us back to the current formulas:

 

Beastmaster +2 DEF per VIT: +10% defense rate.

Warrior ATK boost: +50% ATK. Due to the weapon damage, it might be a 15% damage bonus in the end.... but still far away from being useless.

 

If the Knights are QQing... maybe we should switch the benefits: The Warriors get the parry increase, the Knights the defense bonus and the Beastmasters the damage boost. So everyone should be happy, right?.


Edited by Greven79, 23 July 2014 - 08:42 AM.

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#23 Greven79

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 11:47 AM

-Activated healing skills can be used when HP is low. The reason why they're much more effective than a HoT is that you're not always using them. There was a huge dynamic in the old raids where healers had to heal the whole party, including themselves, and pots weren't as viable as they are now. For whatever reason, you couldn't always rely on outside heals and that was when self heals would have the best benefit. This may not be a problem now, but back then timing was important for instant AoE one shots and many times, only the tank was expected to survive. Anyone could tank bosses most of the time, but being able to survive through those situations ny knowing when to make the best use of your defensive skills is what made good tanks.


-Aura Heal: I knew knights pre-AoV that said the heals were negligible and the general consensus is that it was a useless skill when the points could be put towards better damage mitigation. Heals based on damage can be good, but the percentage on aura heal is pretty low, and tank classes didn't have nearly as much damage pre-AoV as they do now. Cruel bite on average did around 500 damage in full colo gear and 10% of that is negligible. It may not have been implemented as intended, but the end result definitely put BMs on par with other tanks in early raids and above nearly all but the most p2w tanks in PvP.

 

Ok, first of all, you must be talking about a time when there were no heal pets, because they changed the classes significantly. Even my priest couldn't compete with a Willow Worker. And who said, that activated skills are more effective than passive ones? I've already shown that all the different healing skills like Tension Relax, Survival are Water Emblem heal a similar amount of damage, if you look at it after 120sec.

 

I don't remember the exact values, but my 9000 HP Warrior definitely healed more than 2000 HP per master pot. Thanks to a much lower cooldown than a Tension Relax, the pots were definitely and by far superior to my skill... and just to show you the difference: Over the same period of 120sec, a constant Renovatio would have recovered 1320% of the MATK of the priest => that's 26400 HP with MATK 2000. Judge by yourself, how useful those healing skills really were.

 

AFAIK, Cruel Bite always restored 10% of your total HP. What Gravity changed with AoV was to increase the numbers and lowering the cooldown, but I doubt that they are capable of adjusting the mechanic. And I think Cruel Bite had a cooldown of 6~10sec, if I remember correctly. My impression is that the new devs - and I think the team as changed - thought that it was 10% HP of the damage dealt and that this might be the reason why they iincreased it to 30%.

 

The same sort of thing that I mentioned for BMs, they plan on doing for all classes so classes will have more specialized roles based on enemy defense and penetration. Class bonuses are awkward right now, but with the coming class changes, it'll definitely be a way to help with the "role specialization" if implemented in the right way. The notes actually seemed the most clear on what their intentions for BMs were, but vague on the details with "increasing HP effectiveness" being the only thing to go off of.

 

After I've read in the Monk forum, the Knight seem to be the only main tank that will remains... so reasonless whining actually helps. Or maybe they've paid more....

 

Class specialization shouldn't be achieved by special rules (like armor penetration), but by concentrating on different aspects of the game. All these things increase the dps output by 20%:

  • 20% more damage per strike
  • 20% faster attack rate
  • dealing +60% with every third attack
  • a 90% hit chance instead of 75%
  • a higher crit. chance
  • having a pet with the same damage, that attacks five times slower
  • buffing the damage of 4 party members by 5%
  • a 10% chance to deal 200% bonus damage
  • a constant DoT that adds 20% of the damage
  • reducing the opponents defense / damage reduction accordingly
  • reflecting damage back
  • ...

So there are enough things for diversity between classes, you don't need to keep broken things, adding new probably bugged rules to balance what shouldn't be there.

 


Edited by Greven79, 23 July 2014 - 08:54 AM.

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#24 xLuc

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:12 PM

I think it'll take me some time to understand Greven's point of view.

Most of cases warriors DO have more parry than knights (yea, even without a parry boni) because of Defender. Now you talk so much about pre-AoV and stuff, so this was the picture (talking warrior vs. knights):

 

Knight:

- Higher armor

- Same HP

- Less parry

- Less dodge

- Could achieve a very slight damage advantage because the 10% penalty from Defender actually mattered

 

Warrior:

- Less armor

- Same HP

- More parry

- More dodge

- Basically the same damage, winning or losing give the situation

 

Then stats boni come. Knights are given bonus parry (making people, obsviouly, assume that now knights would be the top parry class) and Warriors are given bonus damage (making people assume they'd have more damage than knights but less parry cuz, cmon, it'd be a hell of an injustice having both higher).

So what actually happened is that warriors did succeed on, also, having more parry than knights and shooting off to the stars on damage matter (the boni + insane weapon damage). Defender has no side effect whatsoever anymore cuz the damage boost was so humongous it doesn't even matter anymore.

To top it up, Defender also made warriors better on defense department.

So post-AoV we got the following:

 

Knights:

- Less armor

- Same HP

- Less parry

- Less dodge

- Much less damage

 

Warriors:

- Higher armor

- Same HP

- Higher parry

- Higher dodge

- Much higher damage

 

I won't enter into Beastmasters but, having a class that exceeds on defense, has abnormal HP pool and also hits like a truck doesn't sounds fair to me either.

Not bashing the bonis, they can stay (probably) as long as things are given a better thought.


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#25 Turniper

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:37 PM

Oh man, I must really be out of touch when I'm considering the version of the game that was untainted by pets....
 
Anyway, you're missing a lot. What I meant by that is that most of the time when tanking you'll be at or nearly at full HP so a HoT won't be effective most of the time. Most of the time, BM heals would be emergency heals.
 
Things that seem to be misunderstood:
 
-Cruel bite had no CD. It's only limitations are that it wouldn't heal if the attack missed and it cost 30 beast power.
 
-Current formulas cap parry at a pretty low percentage so a slightly higher parry rate is negligible.
 
-Attack power is incorporated into damage calculations differently than before. The reason why defender was good at its job was because -10% attack power actually translated to -10% damage. The same could be said about the 10% boost from aura blade and the 30% boost from Bear Form. The problem currently is that attack power is insignificant now so the 30% boost I get only translates to 8% more damage while I'm not sure about the boost swordies get, the difference has been described as complete crap. This also has an affect on the extra attack power warriors get because while they do get 50% more attack power, the formula sucks so the difference is negligible. My 30% only translates to 8% so your 35% overall from the class bonus - defender's 10% would only be slightly higher.
 
Why does it look like warriors have much higher damage? Warriors only have an extra 10% more damage or so with defender on. knights would get the same bonus from battle tactics because any INT a war can get can be obtained by a knight. When looking at the respective ultimates, shield cannon actually does slightly more than rage strike. The problem is that knights one shot much less often than warriors because shield cannon hits 3 times. Another reason is that rage strike does 30% more damage against knocked down opponents. Another big one is that warrior weapons have more min/max damage.
 
So warriors' attack power boost is only around 10% more damage, Knight parry bonus is pretty negligible in terms of actual effect, and dodge is pretty invisible and broken for everyone, so it seems that BMs are the only tank with a class bonus actually worth something.
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