234 replies to this topic

[Viri]

play 2 win gurl

[Humbelum]

Oda/Campitor how much for speed pots at npc?

Could you add a way to obtain more cooking kits? srsly I have fun with cooking!

[monica12314]

You argue that drops are chance (I am completely aware and will comment more on that) and claim that it supports 20% being negligible? Pretty weird.

 

Yes you can compare it with exp. I'm also going to compare this with damage dealt in a bit. You can also compare it to medals won doing hugel races.

 

I believe that as kills approach infinity, the number of items you get from these monsters will become closer and closer to the average. Many examples can be given in an attempt to prove this theory. First lest's take a coin flip. If you flip 1 coin you may get 1 heads or 1 tails. Does that mean that every time you will get that same flip? More and more flips you do the closer the determined chance will be to 50%.

 

I'll give an example on damage.

 

I decided to ice wall 4 beelzebubs all on the same cell and kill them all at once with sg. We did not have a greeder at all, so how would we pick up the loots if one survived a minute after the first one died? I knew that the damage taken between all of the beelzebubs would be virtually the same and that they would all die at about the same time. The damage of each hit of sg can vary from max damage being twice as much as minimum damage. It doesn't matter, the number of hits to kill them was 100+. At that point you don't have to worry about killing one way before the other.

 

The damage of every firewall is also virtually the same.

 

Something specific you can refer to is the binomial distribution. This for sure applies to the number of boxes dropped out of x number of kills. The main point of what I am making here is that you can treat drops, damage, anything that has to do with chance the same as things that are set, like exp.

 

Oh and I agree with the only spending 20 hours instead part. I think it's fine. I just think people should be aware of the fact that changing it to that will double the amount of supplies on the server. (should people farm the same amount. I know that they will farm less, but anyone who's going to farm just as much will get double.)

 

Oh and please explain yourself. I want to see you prove me wrong. I'm not an expert on this stuff. Yet.

 

 

You keep dragging this in a different view.

 

Let me explain to you that if you kill a monster that gives 50k exp, the exp it will give will be always 50k exp. Kill 10 monsters, It will still give 50k exp (per monster), or are you saying to me that the exp given by monster is vary by chance?

 

You're comparing a 100% exp given with a drop rate that is definitely a chance per kill (3% in this topic)

[Gn1ydnu]

Think he is comparing 20% increase to exp to 20% increase to drops.

 

Kill a monster with 100k exp 100 times and you get 10m exp. Kill same monster with 20% more exp and you get 12m exp.

 

Kill a monster that drops something at 3% chance 1,000 times and you get 30 items (in a perfect world). Kill the same monster for the same item but with 20% higher drop rate and you get 36 items (in a perfect world).

 

The point was 20% = 20%, unless I am mistaken. 

[monica12314]

20%  = 20%

 

But 20% (exp) increase and .6% (drop) does not give the same convenience. 

Every time you make a kill it gives a definite % increase in exp, while .6% increase in drop (per kill).

 

20% increase is not negligible. but .6% is.

 

The point is, .6% increase in drop is negligible.

Edited by monica12314, 01 June 2014 - 06:42 AM.

[Xellie]

I feel like this whole discussion just stems from personal definitions of "negligible"

[monica12314]

I would say .6% increase is negligible in my own opinion. I won't say that .6% is a higher number that made so much difference.

[azertygf]

Why we can't drop Diabolus ring ? after 1k Ghost incarnation kill with perm gum i have nothing. Can you fix it please ? the normal drop rate with gum is 0.25%~. Someone have the same problem he can't drop this -_-ty ring. Actually the luck to have one is lower than 0.10% with gum or the drop is not actually dropable.

After 30Gum i want answer. 

[zerowon]

Ya is like a answer on diablos ring between friends and me we have 1500 kills and lowest dropped item was orids all with he gum as well between the 3 to 5 ppl farming ghost someone should of gotten a ring already is this -_- lower then a card drop or what.

[Hrishi]

How many times do I have to post about the bio3 spawn being fixed? I am sick of my friends coming back and asking me if they can party me in bio3 like back then, and me having to tell them it's messed up.

[Ralis]

They probably thought Diab Rings were OP and removed them? :3

[azertygf]

We have a suggestion section but we speak about detail and important thing they take the decision alone. 

 

[iamvrypwrful]

I doubt they removed it from dropping, if they did without announcing it then that's certainly not fair for people trying to hunt it.

[squirreI]

You keep dragging this in a different view.

 

Let me explain to you that if you kill a monster that gives 50k exp, the exp it will give will be always 50k exp. Kill 10 monsters, It will still give 50k exp (per monster), or are you saying to me that the exp given by monster is vary by chance?

 

You're comparing a 100% exp given with a drop rate that is definitely a chance per kill (3% in this topic)

Yes I am dragging it into different views. I'm trying to explain to you how this works with examples of the same stuff.

 

As kills approach infinity, there's essentially a 100% chance of the average drop rate being 3%. Just like there's a 100% chance of the exp given being that 100%. Apply 20% increase to both and you get 120% exp and 3.6% drop rate.

 

Think he is comparing 20% increase to exp to 20% increase to drops.

 

Kill a monster with 100k exp 100 times and you get 10m exp. Kill same monster with 20% more exp and you get 12m exp.

 

Kill a monster that drops something at 3% chance 1,000 times and you get 30 items (in a perfect world). Kill the same monster for the same item but with 20% higher drop rate and you get 36 items (in a perfect world).

 

The point was 20% = 20%, unless I am mistaken. 

Last post was trying to say that as kills approach infinity, it is a perfect world yes. So the 20% increase can be applied to both.

 

20%  = 20%

 

But 20% (exp) increase and .6% (drop) does not give the same convenience. 

Every time you make a kill it gives a definite % increase in exp, while .6% increase in drop (per kill).

 

20% increase is not negligible. but .6% is.

 

The point is, .6% increase in drop is negligible.

You just compared a multiplier to a value. They are not the same.

By your logic.. 100% (rate) increase is not negligible, but .01% (value) is. Twice as many cards on the server with such a small increase.

 

I would say .6% increase is negligible in my own opinion. I won't say that .6% is a higher number that made so much difference.

.6% came from the 20% multiplier, which you finally agreed yourself that is not negligible. Again.. Imagine if you increased the card rate to .61%. So that's a 6000% (or 3000%) increase right? Super far from negligible. But by your logic, because the .6% (value) increase was used, it's negligible.

 

(Actually can anyone explain to me why card rate is .02% instead of .01%, and why a bunch of other drops are all increased by .01%?).

 

 

 

Do you know what the difference between an increase in value and a percent increase is yet?

[monica12314]

Yes I am dragging it into different views. I'm trying to explain to you how this works with examples of the same stuff.

 

As kills approach infinity, there's essentially a 100% chance of the average drop rate being 3%. Just like there's a 100% chance of the exp given being that 100%. Apply 20% increase to both and you get 120% exp and 3.6% drop rate.

 

Last post was trying to say that as kills approach infinity, it is a perfect world yes. So the 20% increase can be applied to both.

 

You just compared a multiplier to a value. They are not the same.

By your logic.. 100% (rate) increase is not negligible, but .01% (value) is. Twice as many cards on the server with such a small increase.

 

.6% came from the 20% multiplier, which you finally agreed yourself that is not negligible. Again.. Imagine if you increased the card rate to .61%. So that's a 6000% (or 3000%) increase right? Super far from negligible. But by your logic, because the .6% (value) increase was used, it's negligible.

 

(Actually can anyone explain to me why card rate is .02% instead of .01%, and why a bunch of other drops are all increased by .01%?).

 

 

 

Do you know what the difference between an increase in value and a percent increase is yet?

I understand all your points but here you are again, dragging the topic far far away from what it was originally.

 

We are talking about the drop of guild box specifically. 

Yes, I am pointing out that .6% (20%) increase is negligible, because we are talking about the guild box.

 

We are talking about if .6% (20%) increase in the guild box is negligible or not.

You don't understand it because you never hunt those boxes before or now.

You would't know how much 20% increased is helping.

 

HE Gum should not be a necessity to hunt those boxes.  Even with perma HE Gum it takes too many hours to get the numbers of boxes required for 2 woe.

 

I'm sure you wont understand, because I know that 20% is a big multiplier generally, but if it comes to the guild box, 20% is not even enough of an increase. (it's because of the usage and necessity of the box)

 

I don't know if other people who supply their own guild will understand my point. 

 

(As for your question why cards is .02%, It is written on the patcher that all cards from monsters are doubled by default. )

[EtNox]

(Actually can anyone explain to me why card rate is .02% instead of .01%, and why a bunch of other drops are all increased by .01%?).

 

Ragnarok dropchances are raffled out of 0~10000, with 0 being an actual number leading to some drop.

 

Some monsters with less than 8 drops are able to drop apples by chance - even if they are not mentioned in droptables. Means raffling "no drop" is suprisingly still a valid drop, which translates into every item having close to .01% on top of its "droptable chance".

 

An item with 10% dropchance has 1000 out of 10000 possible according to droptables, in reality it is 1001 out of 10001 (because we have to count 0 as a valid drop).

Some 0.01% dropchance has 2 out of 10001 (or 0 and 1 out of 0~10000 to be precise) - which is close to 0.02%.

The only true ~0.01% chance is an apple.

Edited by EtNox, 02 June 2014 - 04:03 AM.

[squirreI]

Alright guys I say we increase the card droprate to .61%. It's negligible we wouldn't even notice it.

 

^And thanks for explanation

[Xellie]

But Squirrel, I think what people want is to not have to use gum to hunt for supplies.

 

So in terms of what they wish for with the change, it is actually pointless right now.

[squirreI]

Okay yeah I see again. Using the wrong definition for the word negligible. Are they going to somehow double the box drop but not allow usage of gum? If they don't do that then everyone's just going to use gum anyway to get it over with.

[squirreI]

I understand all your points but here you are again, dragging the topic far far away from what it was originally. I've been trying to explain what your posts indicate you don't understand.

 

We are talking about the drop of guild box specifically. 

Yes, I am pointing out that .6% (20%) increase is negligible not enough, because we are talking about the guild box.

 

We are talking about if .6% (20%) increase in the guild box is negligible a large enough change or not.

You don't understand it because you never hunt those boxes before or now. I do

You would't know how much 20% increased is helping. I do

 

HE Gum should not be a necessity to hunt those boxes.  Even with perma HE Gum it takes too many hours to get the numbers of boxes required for 2 woe.

 

I'm sure you wont understand, because I know that 20% is a big multiplier generally, but if it comes to the guild box, 20% is not even enough (here) of an increase. (it's because of the usage and necessity of the box) you said the right thing here except for that I don't understand. I do know what 20% will do to the droprate and I have hunted them before.

 

I don't know if other people who supply their own guild will understand my point. When you clearly make your point yeah sure.

 

(As for your question why cards is .02%, It is written on the patcher that all cards from monsters are doubled by default. ) Databases have been saying .02% for the longest time. It has only been doubled (which is not on any database) for nonMVP cards on classic recently.

 

Edited by squirreI, 02 June 2014 - 08:29 AM.

[Xellie]

Okay yeah I see again. Using the wrong definition for the word negligible. Are they going to somehow double the box drop but not allow usage of gum? If they don't do that then everyone's just going to use gum anyway to get it over with.

 

That would be the point

 

as in: Gum should always be used like that. Not because you "have" to

Edited by Xellie, 02 June 2014 - 08:43 AM.

[EtNox]

Any way to get some sort of KP-Item to auto-complete Dandelion's Quest?

 

The quest is okayish, but i'd be fine with paying some KP to just get that map enabled without running the whole quest over and over again. I'd be okay with 250~300 KP per toon.

(Being used to just handing in some items to get access to the map :/ )

Maybe as some sort of "Lazy Adventurers Backstage Pass-Box" - Nameless Island could have one of these access thingies too.

 

Btw, on that Supply-Box-Issue: Well, let's just see how it pans out first. They already stated they are willing to increase these droprates even further if required. And 20% more is 20% more.

Maybe they should implement some sort of Boxter-like NPC which turns left over items into a new Box or other items of choice. Getting the perfect balance of items dropped from boxes is close to impossible, but i'd rather have some way ingame to turn these items more "fluid" rather then having tons of "static" items (Crystal Fragments for example) being around.

Just doubling drops would most certainly not solve the problem. (and increasing droprates is always possible - we should look at some alternatives first, rather then bruteforcing it)

Edited by EtNox, 02 June 2014 - 09:36 AM.

[Gn1ydnu]

I would use spend USD to buy WPE to buy HE GUM cuz I want to spend a few hours every week hunting boxes instead of dozens of hours. 

 

Time > money.

[azertygf]

Still no answer 3 days later. SUCH WOW THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT CUSTOMER.

The only day they answer is the maintenance day, its like they only work one day in a week.

[AlmrOfAtlas]

Still no answer 3 days later. SUCH WOW THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT CUSTOMER.

The only day they answer is the maintenance day, its like they only work one day in a week.

 

WoE:TE and GH Memorial is undergoing testing on Sakray atm, and there are a lot of bugs.

 

Hate to say it, but Renewal takes precedence.