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Challenge Dungeon MK 3


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#26 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 02:58 PM

The Fiber is set to only go off at low HP. I was toying around with the idea of trying to setup a low HP combo of Fiber / Backslide.

combo would be good and interesting. Creativity like that is huge and appreciated.

Edit, if you are looking for roam parties I would consider a slight cool down for entrench. Start a timer of 1-2 minutes upon entering the dung (NOT exit) to reenter to avoid champs cheesing it.

Edited by Gn1ydnu, 24 June 2015 - 03:01 PM.

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#27 Themes

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 03:13 PM

Yeah putting a small delay would be nice, you can also consider doing some of the we hate champ solutions (high health, reflect, ghost element).

 

Also if you want to encourage roaming you probably want to make it harder to mob. Probably with more annoying things on chase:

 

12:03 p.m. - Tolrin: i don't know if this would work
12:03 p.m. - Tolrin: but what about a like
12:03 p.m. - Tolrin: 2 second cast time teleport on chase
12:03 p.m. - Tolrin: on lowish chance
12:05 p.m. - Tolrin: it'd need some testing, to get how quickly/frequently stuff teleported away, but you could probably get it so that mobbing any distance was impractical, but it didn't make stuff teleport away while you were fighting it

 

Fiber is okay as an option but if they're just doing it at lower health it wont really be enough.

 

The strength of the monster should probably be proportional to the number of them on the map too, with so many melee monsters having them with a fairly simple skillset is great. But the ranged still feels fairly nonthreatening with its current skills, I feel like it needs something for aoe to go along with double strafe. A low chance thunder breath would be pretty strong, I really like the positional requirements from the breath abilities.


Edited by Themes, 24 June 2015 - 03:25 PM.

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#28 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 04:18 PM

@themes, imagine if the ranged monster's arrow shower could carry over status effects like mute, chaos, stone curse or stun. Don't think that is possible but could help displace party members and inflict much needed status effects.
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#29 Themes

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 06:48 PM

You could probably simulate it by just having it arrow shower below x% hp at a 100% chance with a shortish cooldown and then have directly below it in the skill priority wide sleep/silence/stun/curse at 100% chance with the same cooldown. But it's more of a weird gimmick than anything, I'm quite happy just having them cast wide sleep/silence/stun.curse to keep things going no need to make it pretend to be pvp.

 

I'm hoping they can get a test server running so we have an opportunity to try things out before they get pushed out to the live server. This means that changes for testing purposes can be tried out mid week and we dont have to wait a week for drops to get added once everything comes together.


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#30 Xellie

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 09:57 PM

Proposed AI Skill List

MVP

Spoiler

 

Melee

Spoiler

 

Caster

Spoiler

 

Ranged

Spoiler

 

MVP

Suggest swapping shield boom for smite, (knockback lulz)

Elemental change... not so much. This all depends on the original element of the mvp, but you could do a biolabs/thanatos style property change to ghost/holy at 30% hp or w/e

 

Melee

I'm a jerk, I think the melee should fiber at a low hp, then backslide, then cloak, mode change to passive and heal up (think gtb) then go back to mode change aggressive over X amount of hp or after Y time elapsed.

 

Caster

give that fiberlock on chase (no mobbing) and also give it stone curse (not area wide). Not crazy on meteor. 

Pnuema wouldn't be a bad idea (depending on its stats)

I think looking at the AI of something like Elder would be great, how it cycles through the skills in order to seem intelligent. Stone curse > firebolt > frost diver > lightening bolt.

 

Ranged

give it arrow repel and status skills.
 

@themes can you shoot me a pm?


Edited by Xellie, 24 June 2015 - 10:00 PM.

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#31 Themes

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 11:23 PM

The MVP already has Sight Rasher and Dark Thunder (JT) I think it's set for positioning -_-ery IMO. The Shield Boom is probably just there to punish people who want to Fiber/Ice Wall it in, although it does already have a full array of skills so not sure.

 

The elemental change is interesting, if it's on idle like a Joker it means every time you fight it you'll get a new element (in theory) and you'd have to sense/test it out. But you could also do things like force idle it to get it to change its element if it's not what you want, depending on its cooldown obviously.

 

I like the backslide + hide into passive thing, but it seems like it could get really miserable after the initial gimmick wears off and you spend 50% of your time chasing down passive monsters because the melee ones seem like they're going to be your common enemy. You could do it on the ranged one though and that would be amusing, especially if it backslid off screen and you had to go looking for it. You could pair the backslide + hide with a 10 second cast time life stream at maybe 20-30% giving the monster some time to walk off then cast it.

 

We were discussing the idea of having a Wizard/Caster that below a certain health percentage just swapped to spamming Meteor Storm (or other AoE) slamming the party with damage until it died. Paired with a power up it could be interesting way to add some more monster hp watching.

 

Looking at the AI of some existing things is basically how I've been coming up with stuff so far, there's lots of cool conditional things you can do with monster skills. For example:

  • Below x% health do y
  • If hit by <skill> do y
  • if x players standing close do y
  • Chance to turn passive
  • Do x if targeted by rude attack
  • Cast status recovery on monsters with abnormal statuses
  • Modify aggro ranges (I think Bow Guardians have an abnormally long aggro range)

Snap is also a lot of fun for things, wonder if you could make a Monk/Champ monster that Zen/Furies in idle and can Snap in and Fist or Occult.


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#32 Xellie

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 11:33 PM

So much of this depends on the monsters stats, I was contemplating if the joker style ele change might be going too far as you'd potentially have to change your entire party composition (if indeed we're looking at 2~5 man parties)

 

The passive mode shouldn't last long, maybe long enough for it to lifestream and go back to agro. perhaps melee one should soul destroyer from hide like eremes.

 

I like the idea of them using the AoEs more if there is X players in range (atroce style AI), but with all this fire damage, maybe fiberlock isn;t the way to go, hmm. *thinking*

 

snap on the melee, yes!


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#33 Themes

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 12:34 AM

Yeah everything depends on everything else, it's not something you can theorycraft out and expect to just work. That's why I'd like to be able to see these things in action, you can test things out and see how scary half a dozen of them are or how annoying backslide into hide actually is.

 

Also deciding on stuff like being able to teleport on the map as a player, what you want the monsters to do on rude attack (if anything) and if the monster should be boss property. I feel the boss property is pretty important in that it limits the strength of a Wizards Storm Gust and lets you do more with knock backs and other unique things like boss flagged monsters not being able to snap.

 

Having monsters that can snatch/exile on a map where players cant teleport/wing could also be really funny, especially if there's interesting ways for players to avoid it via dodge/range/spell break. Forcing an Agi/Perfect Dodge tank could be a really interesting way to mix things up from the standard all in Vit/Defense tank/killers.


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#34 Xellie

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 01:01 AM

Yeah everything depends on everything else, it's not something you can theorycraft out and expect to just work. That's why I'd like to be able to see these things in action, you can test things out and see how scary half a dozen of them are or how annoying backslide into hide actually is.

 

Also deciding on stuff like being able to teleport on the map as a player, what you want the monsters to do on rude attack (if anything) and if the monster should be boss property. I feel the boss property is pretty important in that it limits the strength of a Wizards Storm Gust and lets you do more with knock backs and other unique things like boss flagged monsters not being able to snap.

 

Having monsters that can snatch/exile on a map where players cant teleport/wing could also be really funny, especially if there's interesting ways for players to avoid it via dodge/range/spell break. Forcing an Agi/Perfect Dodge tank could be a really interesting way to mix things up from the standard all in Vit/Defense tank/killers.

 

Yeah, we need to see a lot more of the details here before being able to offer much feedback.

 

Exile/snatch on non teleport maps. Nightmares of Thanatos tower top floors. Could be upsetting if the map is too big / mobby.
 

I'm in favour of enabled teleport, thinking about what happened with the GH one, where all the mobs would collect far from the door. Unless the spawns were zoned I suppose.


Edited by Xellie, 25 June 2015 - 01:07 AM.

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#35 Themes

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 02:02 AM

Yeah map size is another one of those things that needs to be tested, it's about balancing map size vs monster density. The smaller you make the map the fewer things you need on it to make it feel full and the faster people could return to a group, but then there's also the problem of the smaller the map the fewer players it would support and how much easier it is to set up stationary parties on smaller maps.

 

With almost limitless possibilities there's no reason why we cant eventually try everything, but right now its about looking at the three answers Campitor gave earlier about difficulty, size and playstyle:

 

1. Somewhere just below/around Biolabs

2. 2-4 Small Groups. Larger parties would be a bit to ask more.

3. I would like it if they roamed. With a mixed balanced group.

 


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#36 Xellie

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 02:38 AM

Lets look at the proposed map - This is bif_fild02

 

iPdnr7R.png

 

It's not a very big map, and it has narrow paths and hallways. So my concern here turns to that a party will roam down one prong and have to turn back and walk all the way back up to a different part of the map. It's not really a map you can set up camping mob parties on (which is good) but the walking would be frustrating.

 

Snatch/exile seems fine on a place like this. I'd be inclined to have the mobs not see through hide (not be boss) and maybe add a smaller, very easy to kill but fast mob with snatch so that the party has to prioritize. Limiting AoE skills from the mobs would allow party sizes to be 2-4 without need of mag. Earth.

Hard hitting but low dex melee hits from mobs would promote the use of flee/PD tanks over "lulz farm errything" LKs.


Edited by Xellie, 25 June 2015 - 02:40 AM.

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#37 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 03:11 AM

No. The map is terribly small, narrow, and disorienting in places due to elevation changes. It's very difficult to mob enemies up as there are a lot of chokes you can't double back to collect stragglers from. The branch/vine things are annoying as hell to traverse and you lose the cursor a lot on them. 

 

It is pretty, but that's all it has going for it. It's no place to spend a lot of time farming. Choose another please.

 

I suggest one of the TI maps on Renewal. Those are always fun! Please no Turtle Island though.


Edited by AlmrOfAtlas, 25 June 2015 - 03:13 AM.

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#38 Xellie

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 03:12 AM

I do agree, it's not a nice map. I was just looking at the one Oda had posted


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#39 Rang

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 05:45 AM

The drops better be massive if these proposed monster skills go in.


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#40 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 06:27 AM

I would like to see proposed monster stats and proposed drops. At least having a basic layout will allow tweaking and input to be much easier well having the "whole picture" rather then just one piece (skills).

I'll be able to do a good post tonight when I'm home. The more information we have the more input and proper balancing that can take place.

Drops need to be good enough to attract party play.
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#41 Themes

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 11:40 AM

I'm not a big fan of the map either, but it's partially my fault. Someone mentioned using some of the Renewal maps and suggested Bifrost tower 2/3 as they're aparrently nice open maps and I mentioned it to Oda/Camp, it seems like I may not have made it clear enough.

 

If we're going to do a Geffen Magic Tourney theme, why not pick a Geffen field map or Geffen Dungeon 2/3/4?

 

As for drops I'd assume they're going to be fairly similar to what we'd expect from Biolabs (8% per box), maybe slightly higher or lower depending on difficulty/density. What would people like to see as drops in there? GSBs? Seeds? New World equip (at lower rates obviously)? Do you want to augment the drops with some kind of turnin that awards the opportunity to get bg badges or exp or <consumables>?


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#42 Xellie

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 11:53 AM

gef_dun03?

 

http://www.divine-pr...e/map/gef_dun03


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#43 Themes

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 12:33 PM

Yeah that's a possibility.


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#44 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 01:20 PM

I'm not a big fan of the map either, but it's partially my fault. Someone mentioned using some of the Renewal maps and suggested Bifrost tower 2/3 as they're aparrently nice open maps and I mentioned it to Oda/Camp, it seems like I may not have made it clear enough.

 

No offense but "apparently" doesn't quite cut it for someone who wants to have a large stake in content creation for the server.


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#45 Themes

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 01:01 PM

You misunderstand my role in this. Hopefully we'll be able to make things like that clearer shortly.


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#46 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 11:42 PM

You misunderstand my role in this. Hopefully we'll be able to make things like that clearer shortly.

 

I want in o3o


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#47 Xellie

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 11:42 PM

Start posting feedback and constructive ideas then missy


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#48 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 11:47 PM

Start posting feedback and constructive ideas then missy

 

Have in the past. Got ignored. How do I know anything I say will be taken into consideration?


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#49 Xellie

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Posted 27 June 2015 - 12:30 AM

Have in the past. Got ignored. How do I know anything I say will be taken into consideration?

 

The only post you made on topic in this thread was listened to, silly :p_swt:


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#50 Campitor

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 10:22 AM

Looking at using Monsters

1545
1546
1547
1455
1548
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