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#1 Campitor

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 09:05 AM

Recently some players have expressed to us that one reason new players may be reluctant to participate in WoE is the basic gears needed for participation may take too long or be too hard to obtain. This would also limit news guilds from taking the plunge and trying out the classic server.

 

On the renewal server's WoE TE. There is a set of gear provided (for free from NPCs) that is a good base line for all classes. It is by no means the best for WoE but provides everyone with a certain basic level of power.

 

 

We want to recreate that for the classic server with the following two restrictions.

1. It cannot be the best gear. The current top tier gear has to remain the top tier.

2. It will ONLY woe on WoE Castle/Realm Maps. The gear will be blocked on all other maps.

 

 

What kinds of gear do you consider the absolute minimum for your class(es) to participate in WoE?


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#2 Xellie

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 09:08 AM

does this kind of thing help?

 

http://iroclassic.ne...=woe_biochemist

http://iroclassic.ne...woe_high_wizard


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#3 Campitor

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 09:10 AM

Yes but it shouldn't be the ideal equipment builds but what you think players need to even get in the WoE Pool. These give away gears would be like floaties.


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#4 Xellie

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 09:11 AM

Well the problem is that some of the classes require 100% stun resistance to be viable.

So that is something that will have to be addressed or they are not going to be able to compete at all.

 

And no you can't do 90% stun resistance because resistance =/= duration.

 

what is listed there under basic... its kind of minimum sadly. You set this bar with parade hats.

You can substitute out things like variants for 10% hp shoes or w/e, or immunes for the muffler thing that was in the kafra shop also the shield,  but the stun proof stuff is vital.

 

 

There are also some classes that aren't viable without top tier gear, such as Lord Knight, SinX or Mastersmith.


Edited by Xellie, 23 March 2015 - 09:24 AM.

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#5 zerowon

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 09:16 AM

ya pretty much need 100% stun resist on a few classes no way around it u could offer them a headgear that takes upper/mid

since they wont have a unbreakable armor that most classes wear for stun immune.


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#6 Xellie

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 09:19 AM

every class needs something that acts as the following imo

 

  • cranial
  • immune
  • variant
  • beret
  • unfrozen

 

They could of course be dumbed down, and there are nuances with other classes, but these are a start for all classes.

 

wizard

stun resist taking upper/mid/shield (they get the rest from bg set)

nimble gloves

 

Biochem

stun resist taking upper/mid/armor

nimble gloves

 

 

Like TE you should just let them pick and choose something like

 

  • Training cranial : 25% resistance to demi
  • Training immune : 15% less daamge from neutral
  • Training shoes : 7% hp/sp
  • Training Beret : 9% resistance to demi
  • Training armor : immunity to frozen status
  • Training gloves: + 3 dex
  • Training medal: + 100 max hp (class restrictions)
  • something hat : (all slots taken) : + 50% stun resistance
  • something shield : + 30% stun resistance (flame skull resists other status too)

I would like to suggest you add a token system with this so that they get X number of tokens allowing them to purchase X number of gear (of each type) for a while, meaning that they are eventually forced to earn their long term gears as the number they can purchase would be limited.

Mainly for the stun proof thing. Ability to earn more tokens optional.

 


Edited by Xellie, 23 March 2015 - 09:36 AM.

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#7 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 11:01 AM

Give an unfrozen armor (1 def, 0 mdef, unupgradable, make sure it can break) and a cranial shield (1 def, 0 mdef, unupgradable, make sure it can break). 

 

Nothing else is required. Offering free 100% stun immunity for classes that can throw thousands of bombs is silly. If they can or if there guild can afford to supply them mats on a biochemist then they should be able to afford stun proof gear easily.

 

I am up for very basic stuff to get people to play, but not looking to kill the economy even more. Crappy shield with 25-30% demi human resist and an unfrozen is more then generous enough. 

 

No server can sustain any longevity on WoE alone and no server can sustain any longevity on PVM/MVP alone. We need to allow basic basic basic stuff so people get motivated to play the game, not just spend a day to make a 99 trans + get free gear to WoE only. 

 

Cranial+unfrozen. Everything else is not needed and will be detrimental. 


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#8 Xellie

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 11:06 AM

Give an unfrozen armor (1 def, 0 mdef, unupgradable, make sure it can break) and a cranial shield (1 def, 0 mdef, unupgradable, make sure it can break). 

 

Nothing else is required. Offering free 100% stun immunity for classes that can throw thousands of bombs is silly. If they can or if there guild can afford to supply them mats on a biochemist then they should be able to afford stun proof gear easily.

 

I am up for very basic stuff to get people to play, but not looking to kill the economy even more. Crappy shield with 25-30% demi human resist and an unfrozen is more then generous enough. 

 

No server can sustain any longevity on WoE alone and no server can sustain any longevity on PVM/MVP alone. We need to allow basic basic basic stuff so people get motivated to play the game, not just spend a day to make a 99 trans + get free gear to WoE only. 

 

Cranial+unfrozen. Everything else is not needed and will be detrimental. 

 

Because being able to hunt spores/stems/bottles/gsbs equates to hundreds of millions of zeny.

 

 


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#9 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 12:01 PM

Because being able to hunt spores/stems/bottles/gsbs equates to hundreds of millions of zeny.


That doesn't seem related to our agreement.
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#10 Xellie

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 12:10 PM

That doesn't seem related to our agreement.

 

 

I wasn't actually talking to you, I was pointing out the fallacy in your argument to the authorities.


Edited by Xellie, 23 March 2015 - 12:15 PM.

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#11 Misos

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 12:52 PM

Give an unfrozen armor (1 def, 0 mdef, unupgradable, make sure it can break) and a cranial shield (1 def, 0 mdef, unupgradable, make sure it can break). 

 

Nothing else is required. Offering free 100% stun immunity for classes that can throw thousands of bombs is silly. If they can or if there guild can afford to supply them mats on a biochemist then they should be able to afford stun proof gear easily.

 

I am up for very basic stuff to get people to play, but not looking to kill the economy even more. Crappy shield with 25-30% demi human resist and an unfrozen is more then generous enough. 

 

No server can sustain any longevity on WoE alone and no server can sustain any longevity on PVM/MVP alone. We need to allow basic basic basic stuff so people get motivated to play the game, not just spend a day to make a 99 trans + get free gear to WoE only. 

 

Cranial+unfrozen. Everything else is not needed and will be detrimental. 

 

What/Which economy? It's for new players who's willing to play on this server. Those items will be non-tradable&vendable and they'll work only for 2 or 3 months. And those items MUST BE EQUAL to our gears, otherwise ppl won't even waste their times. After that they have to gear up their characters. I'm willing to help to brew new guilds stuff if they can bring their mats or GMs can put an NPC for that.

We are talking about imaginary-players, we don't have them atm and it'll not hurt this server or economy. It's just an investmen for future.

This server still has some potential but we must have this feature and they must block gods/mvps at least for WoE:SE.

Dear GM/CMs;
Don't do it if you are not gonna give equal powered gears. You'll waste your time because competitive ppl won't accept them. Start thinking like you are one of those player who's willing to play on this server, would you do it or not? Because starting from scratch after 3-4 years is painful, I experienced this six months ago and I won't do it again.


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#12 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 01:02 PM

Why should brand new players have exactly equal gear to people who have been working on gear for YEARS?

Giving out unfrozens and cranial a is more then these servers have done in the past, it would still be significant. If it takes brand players a couple months to get situated, so be it but thy will still be able to participate with free unfrozens and cranial.

For bios, they could go vit build like others (we never did) did pre stun gear. Or could use some teamwork to have a priest status recov spam (what we did).

Some very very basic gears would e a great incentive. Not making this a pre loaded woe only server where you log in and make a 99 trans in a day (which you can currently do) and talk to a NPC to get all required gears needed.

We need to improve woe (remove gods/MVPs) but a server means nothing once it's only a woe server. Need to have a balance.
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#13 Xellie

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 01:11 PM

I would like to suggest you add a token system with this so that they get X number of tokens allowing them to purchase X number of gear (of each type) for a while, meaning that they are eventually forced to earn their long term gears as the number they can purchase would be limited.

Mainly for the stun proof thing. Ability to earn more tokens optional.


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#14 schia

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 01:20 PM

you can go with 2 different routes that fit in very general roles.

 

Have the entire set offer a lot of survivability

 

or

 

have the entire set offer a lot of resistance with little survivability.

 

 

Current best in slot gears require a healthy mix of both.  You can make the battleground set outshadow the freebie set by not giving the freebie set bonus hp.  This would give players a clear stepping stone in a short term goal.  By the time they've played long enough to scrape together a BG set, they would have either quit or know enough about their class to know what to aim for as their long term goals.

 

Simplest solution would be to just give the entire freebie set a combined total of like 60% total resist and nothing else.  The set should take up every single slot except the weapon, this includes the accessories. Without any card slots for any of the pieces, they would be inclined to immediately start working on upgrades as they'd be suffering tremendously from freeze/stuns.  At 60% resist, it would be unlikely for players to get 1 shotted by a stiff breeze.  The lack of status resistance would only limit their potential damage output so guilds would still require some players to be moderately geared to do damage in team fights.  I don't agree with giving them a half assed set because i doubt it would bring their survivability high enough to actually see team fights unfold.  What we could do is give them a pretty good set that is clearly lacking in one aspect.

 

Established guilds that don't bring reliable amounts of crowd control effects should know better.  If they lose to a new guild that lacks damage output and status resists then they probably deserved it.  New guilds vs new guilds would just be a giant wet noodle fight, what better way for them to practice and git gud than to allow them to survive long enough to see the mistakes they're making instead of immediately sending them to their respawn point?  That's like shooting your dog after she pees on the carpet.

 

The biggest hurdle for a fresh player is surviving, any damage they try to deal would come instinctively anyway.  Since players have no indication on the amount of damage they do, they won't notice that big of a difference anyway.  Making the fights last longer for new players would give them that "epic win" feeling when they finally die after getting zerged. Surviving long enough to help their team while slowly seeing some enemies drop would give them a sense of belonging.  To make people stay in the long term, you have to appeal to them on an emotional level while having their experience also be enjoyable.

 

Realistically, you're not going to be getting truly new players.  If you are, then you're looking at the wrong server.  Appeal to the current crowd that is still interested or give new players incentives to do woe.  Oda asked me to make a thread about woe incentives that during the tiki tuesday stream last week, but i'm pretty sure it was ignored since i'm not one of the 'big' players people worship.


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#15 needmorezleep

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 02:01 PM

Offer guild packs that are account bound and equal to ingame gear for at least 2 months. People are not going to join if you give them horrible hand me downs. For any guild to have any interest in the server they need at least bare min

 

Nid Shadow Garb

+5 Dark Bash w/ Sta Golem

Cranial Valk/Horn Valk

Alligator based accesories

Zerom card Gloves

Valkyrie armors

Diabolus Boots

Slotted Fire Armor w/ Marc

Yellow Ribbon

Feather Beret

BG Set with Raydric/Noxious/Matyr/Marc

Combat Knife

Nightmare Mids

Giant Bapho Horns

Smokie carded accesories

Long Mace

Variant Shoes

 

Amount given varies per class but if you want new guilds to come have a chance and actually play you have to understand you do not get to decide what is "fair" for them if it is not the bare min requirements for a guild they will not come period just look at every server in existence that gives joke gear vs useful gear and you'll notice all the good ones seem to somehow be floating 600~1600 online with active pvp, bg, woe and the ones that don't are pretty much iro classic right now. 


Edited by needmorezleep, 23 March 2015 - 02:04 PM.

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#16 Flack

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 02:15 PM

Give an unfrozen armor (1 def, 0 mdef, unupgradable, make sure it can break) and a cranial shield (1 def, 0 mdef, unupgradable, make sure it can break). 

 

Nothing else is required. Offering free 100% stun immunity for classes that can throw thousands of bombs is silly. If they can or if there guild can afford to supply them mats on a biochemist then they should be able to afford stun proof gear easily.

 

I am up for very basic stuff to get people to play, but not looking to kill the economy even more. Crappy shield with 25-30% demi human resist and an unfrozen is more then generous enough. 

 

No server can sustain any longevity on WoE alone and no server can sustain any longevity on PVM/MVP alone. We need to allow basic basic basic stuff so people get motivated to play the game, not just spend a day to make a 99 trans + get free gear to WoE only. 

 

Cranial+unfrozen. Everything else is not needed and will be detrimental. 

 

This sums up the two gears you need. 

 

To add to the stun immunity argument

 

Stun immunity can be gained via stats and thus making any gear that offers it "nice" but not "necessary".


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#17 Divine

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 07:44 PM

Dont we have a quest for slotted mids to get stun resistance?

 

I think you're just supposed to refine gears (that drop from castles like candy or sell cheaply) to +7 and you can get an account bound geek glasses. They also drop slotting geek coupons in that Periwinkle Box and the Challenge Dungeon MvP. Correct me if I'm wrong though!

 

Giving players a Cranial and an Unfrozen armor, then having them do a quest to get slotted mid headgear for stun immunity (if they even need it) sounds pretty good to me. I believe that GMs are working on increasing drops that include Gloves, so players can also hunt accessories. The only issue I see is a Garment for new players, the price of raydric is pretty high. Maybe you could make it so that finishing the Janeway quest, or large chunk of quests (much like the Byalan VIP dungeon on Renewal) gives you a 10% or 15% type garment.


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#18 zerowon

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 07:46 PM

u need 4 +7 gears  1 of which drops at below card rate and have to be vip mandatory to even try the quest. last time i did it i failed all 5 chars never again. rng slotted mids aint fun when most servers sell em for $5-$10  usd


Edited by zerowon, 23 March 2015 - 07:47 PM.

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#19 kruim21

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 07:58 PM

so our flame skull cards and stun proof gears will be throw to npc?
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#20 kingarthur6687

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 08:21 PM

I'm honestly wondering whether some people want Loki Classic to be a MOBA or something, with these "basic" gear suggestions.


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#21 zerowon

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 08:29 PM

lets be honest can u really buy anything with ur zeny anymore in this server if anyone has a bone to pick about the cost of stun immune gear it would be me.

i spent oh 3 bil in zeny for the very first sunny slotting coupons [10%chance &avg price was 90m], 450m for a valk armor then another $200usd for lucky boxes that had taikus in em. let me tell u from experince i never got a slot mid though the boxes/coupons ever. i wound up paying another 900m for the mid so we could have a proper bio. i still feel perment/top tier gear will always be the end game i think some of you are thinking too much with ur ro wallet cuz in my eyes nothing sells unless its a deal/ common use item.


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#22 schia

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 08:50 PM

I'm honestly wondering whether some people want Loki Classic to be a MOBA or something, with these "basic" gear suggestions.

 

realistically, without a working economy in the game there is only the single player experience and the woe experience split.  If the economy will never get resolved, then at least let players that would stick around in classic have a fun and fair time in woe.

 

The woe economy is inclusive, supplies gets farmed by woe'ers, gets directly distributed to woe'ers, and all supply and demand is more than met on a weekly basis.  There is no market at all for players to even compete to enter the economy.  Gear value will only stagnate as more and more get farmed, this just causes massive inflation.  The only item in the RO market setting that will retain its value over time will be consumables as those are used up typically at a faster rate than they are farmed, but with the way classic is right now consumables are at a near infinite supply. 

 

How are players expected to enter the economy to actually purchase things in the game?  Farm for it themselves?  What are they suppose to even do to make zeny besides farm and sell to npc?  The only way for players to reliably make zeny is by generating new zeny from the npc, thus further crashing the value of zeny as time goes on.  The only way for zeny to retain its value is by having it circulate, but unless there are actually things the middle and high class players actually need that can be obtainable by players spending time then zeny will never leave their hands.

 

So yea, if classic needs to be a "MOBA" to make its players stick around, then so be it.  This discussion would not be needed if the economy wasn't completely trashed and players actually felt as if their time spent putting effort into the economy weren't such a complete waste of time.


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#23 Xellie

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:12 AM

If you're forcing new players to make new chars once they get their gears, they won't stay. Y'all seem to misunderstand the point.

 

Give them nothing but a cranial and unfrozen they'll get curb stomped faster than those recalls VH allow on their guardian stone. I went there sure, but it's to make a point. How did that FEEL? What is it like to get outgeared, outnumbered, outskilled constantly and knowing that you're being offered a pathetic little token item that actually doesn't change a damn thing?

I actually know how it feels from old servers.

 

Also learning curve, it's a thing. Most new players don't have a clue what they need and need things available to experiment with.

 

p.s: I don't even own a nyd garb - they don't need the equips to be that high level.

 

The important thing is to make these for sure not to replace real gear (limit their availability via costing or time limits).

But there are functions that they need. They should look at their anti stun hat and consider that they will need to get a real one at some point. If they're wasting time with vit biochems (which will probably be getting one shot by bomb and doing a dps of about 200) - remember that

a/ it's going to suck and will demoralize them

b/ they are going to have to make a new trans char, meaning they will have to earn their pvm equip first. That is the exact opposite of what should be being aimed for.

 

and yeah the economy is dead nothing sells. Castles aren't worth anything anymore either remember. So it's going to be hard for them.

 

 

Are you afraid of fresh competition? Why won't you allow limited time gears for them that allow them to compete? What are you scared of?

 

 

Dont we have a quest for slotted mids to get stun resistance?

 

I think you're just supposed to refine gears (that drop from castles like candy or sell cheaply) to +7 and you can get an account bound geek glasses. They also drop slotting geek coupons in that Periwinkle Box and the Challenge Dungeon MvP. Correct me if I'm wrong though!

 

Correcting. Padded armor[1] and sandles[1] do not drop from castle treasure. The fail rate of the quest is quite high and the minimum level req is 70.

 

Some people won't even make level 70 chars for godlike items, so I doubt they'll do it for slotted mids, especially if new.


Edited by Xellie, 24 March 2015 - 12:19 AM.

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#24 Myzery

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 01:01 AM

I'll be honest; I didn't read the replies, but the Eden gear on Renewal is more than sufficient for newer players.


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#25 Themes

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 03:25 PM

I'll be honest; I didn't read the replies, but the Eden gear on Renewal is more than sufficient for newer players.

 

This isnt really the purpose of this though, it's about giving new players to the server access to suitable gear to stop them from being discouraged from participating. A lot of people are afraid that with the established guilds superior gear/gods/mvps  that people are not interested in starting out here. So I dont think it's so much targeted at "new" players just new players to Classic (from Renewal or other servers).

 

I'm torn on a bunch of the opinions here, I think giving people the option to choose a handful of items that suits their class/role the best will be the way to go. This means the GMs dont need to assemble specific sets and players can choose to gear themselves how they like.

 

Slot mids should be available fairly freely and easily, the current chances for chances to get mids is pretty obnoxious and should be phased out. The current ingame way to create the account bound mids (http://forums.warppo...ds-quest-guide/) is quite out of date and it's cost is too high relative to the cost of unbound mids right now.

 

I think giving people an easy base to start from is a good idea. I dont know if we need to give people access to 100% stun immunity from the get go, give them most of what they need then have them play the game for a bit to get the rest. A Dark Bac isnt very expensive and it doesnt take that long to earn enough Zeny to purchase one. You're going to have to play the game a little bit anyway to supply your players, surely you can have them play to fill in the gaps left by the provided gear.

 

I dont think I've seen this asked anywhere but what sort of situation is the gear provided under, how long does it last and is it re-acquirable? If someone has no reason to play the game because they're able to speak to an NPC and get everything they need, they may participate during siege. But they have no reason to play outside those hours once they've leveled a character and it feels a lot like the opposite of Dragon Labs where we had lots of 99/60 characters with no gear.


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