149 replies to this topic

[zirothos]

one thing that need to be check is new stuff for guild. a better Gestion And Hall of guild like a house but made for guild and many more xD

 

And make Legend difficulty for all misson zone

Edited by zirothos, 02 May 2015 - 09:32 AM.

[sean718]

Only things I've ever used Thunderbreak for : keeping a combo counter running, and annoy people in the Port of Winds with the big clouds. I guess a flinching effect would make it useful in many more ways than these two.

 

The flinching effect magically disappeared after an update years ago. I don't recall it ever being announced. 

 

In addition, Thunder Break does not carry elemental damage in PvP. You are literally tickling people in pvp for 100+ damage when you use it. It is beyond the realm of consideration for PvP purposes and highly debatable for PvE when considering Skill Points management. 

[Homurasan]

I remember having tried to use it PvE, but my poor Aim rate wouldn't let me hit more than two monsters out of ten. It also dealt less damage than a X attack, without any other effect, so I quickly removed it from my skill bar.

[UraharaStore]

I remember having tried to use it PvE, but my poor Aim rate wouldn't let me hit more than two monsters out of ten. It also dealt less damage than a X attack, without any other effect, so I quickly removed it from my skill bar.

"Poor aimrate"

[AthenaPi]

So where is the compensation :3?

[sean718]

My suggested changes from what I know about the classes

 

 

• Remove non-flinch status for chain combo for all classes

- As some chain combos are better than others, the non-flinch/super armor status makes certain classes fairly broken.  

 

Very similar in stating that some skills are better than others; different classes, different situations. Some chain combos can stun lock and flinch. A lot take advantage of attack speed. Some can be used mid combo to follow up with another attack. Super armor has it's own downfalls as well. I just don't see a decent PvPer not noticing these things. 

 

• Paladin
  • remove barricade restriction in pvp/bsq Agree. Pallys are made to tank. If implemented Barricade would be less effective as it was before, but still useful. 
  • Increase cool down of xcut to 10s and broom to 8s Disagree. Proper combos can still be executed until cooldown is removed. Testing will show this. 
  • Decrease casting time for spin it bear  Disagree. I've had no problem executing this with proper timing, same goes with highly skilled pallys. 
  • Increase cool down of mega storm blade to 8s  Disagree. Consistent execution is dependent on timing, skill, and luck. I don't see where it's overpowered to the point of a slight nerf.
  • Increase CDMG cap to 350% Agree. I should note that raising CD limits on Physical Attack based classes should be taken in small steps, but 350 and even 400% is not a game changer.

- Since paladin can't use TR in bsq and supposedly pvp (even though they can in pvp) I believe these changes to their cd/casting times are appropriate though it cannot be certain without some tests being done.  I'm completely ok with broom and xcut not sharing the same cd if things like this are implemented.  One full set of chaos or glorious gives them over the cdmg limit, I never understood that.

 

Critical Damage caps had many reasons for implementation. Critical Damage was being stacked to obscene levels for Elga runs, dungeons, and bosses. In PvP, physical classes were taking the cake in dps, especially those with high crit rates. With elements in the equation it was only correct to implement a cap. Certain classes though, got hit harder than others since not all skills hold element damage, this is especially true for Sorcerers. This is, however, my own interpretation. 

• Myrmidon
  • Change stumblebum to 100% stun rate with debuffs of Aim implemented Agree for obvious reason.
  • No flinch status to Magnum Break, Deathbound, Wyvern To the attack or the player? 
  • Decrease cool down of gust slash to 8s Disagree for not so obvious reasons.
  • *Raise CD cap to 500%-700%

As a myrmidon I can literally run around for 2-3 seconds not being able to use any moves because they've been cancelled by an attack or Ive already used all of them to no avail.  Either decreasing the cd or giving no flinch status could remedy this situation.  Plus they have one of the lowest dps in the game even though their burst dmg is high.

 

A lot of classes cannot cast skills for 3+ seconds due to cool downs, Myrm's aren't the only ones. Some classes have 'filler skills' (completely ineffective or slightly effective skills that really are just to deter the enemy from jumping on you) just to use during that down time.

 

• Invoker
  • Double Shot becomes a passive  This was done for specific reasons.
  • Lightning Magnet cooldown 20 seconds Agree. I don't mind the cooldown suggestion. Might be a bit high considering the MP and awakening cost. These factors should be considered. 

- Invokers I am ok with as long as the chain combo doesn't give them super armor/no flinch.  I feel like that super armor/no flinch is what makes them ridiculously strong along with their high dps.  With the above comment increased cdmg for priests, I don't think it is needed as it is already quite high.

 

Chain combo on Magicians (not simply invokers/priests/monks) all have this effect. However, it is easily countered and should be even easier if certain skill changes take effect. The issue with this is if the person is lagging or not and hopping across the screen, it may be hard to deter them, but that's a different discussion altogether. 

 

• Archers
  • increase Shootdown cool down to 6s Disagree. This is a staple skill for archer classes. A Sentinel with this cooldown suggestion would hit and run more than ever since they are ground skill challenged. Shootdown is extremely easy to predict and avoid. In group pvp, the damage is split between the group attacked so I don't see the reasoning behind this. 

- Basically daggers in the air with more dmg.  I think it'd be better with a higher cd as it feels broken people just running around just doing shoot down every second they get.

 

Throwing Dagger has it's own benefits that separate it from shootdown. I don't feel the need to state the differences since they are apparent.

 

 

 

• Sentinal
  • Change untouchable duration to 10s instead of 1s I don't know of anyone other than trolls who use this skill since it really isn't useful in any sense, but if it really is  a 1 second duration instead of the 10 seconds it's supposed to be, then it should be fixed.
  • Increase cdmg cap to 400% Borderline. Raising the CD cap to 400% wouldn't make much of an impact vs balance. I'm neither for or against it. Just keep in mind the obtainable crit rate for archers in general.

- Untouchable doesn't make sense with a 1s duration when it was originally 10.  CDMG cap increase as their class was mainly known for their cdmg and now they do less than destroyers.  

 

• Destroyer
  • Change sniping cool down to 15s Disagree. I don't see the reasoning for this. It's extremely avoidable, predictable, and interruptable. It is a staple skill for Destroyers and a hard one to use and stack properly. A 15 second duration wouldn't make a difference since it's a skill meant to be used opportunely. 
  • decrease max cdmg to 350% Disagree. CD cap is perfect for Destroyers right now. Any higher and I would be against that as well.

- Same reason as shoot down and their dps is already quite high with random shot.  Also the same reasoning applies to why the cdmg cap is lowered.

• Ninja
  • Remove burrow restriction in pvp/bsq Agree. This skill should not have been restricted in the first place. However, raise the cool down to 30 seconds. 
  • increase cdmg cap to 400% Agree. But raise it a bit higher, about 500-700%. 1k+ pre nerf was normal to see.

- Don't know why this restriction is in place when the cool down is already quite long.  This will also give use to the spikes.  Increasing the cdmg cap since 1 set bonus basically makes them go over the 300% limit which made no sense to me as well.

 

 

These are my suggestions so far from my experience from pvp/bsq.  I think most of them make sense.  Even if it is unbalanced it's not completely tipped to one side or another imo like it is now.  I pvp quite a bit and do a lot of in guild pvps.  I can't really say much for twins, summoners as their amount of skills they can use and how broken their block/dps is seems a bit unfixable.  Maybe for twins, having the twin able to die while using a skill to resummon them would be great, but not sure if that's even possible.  Summoners could have better summon buffs or casting skills so they can actually use summons/casts in pvp instead of just pew pew all day.  

 

The max stat changes will probably have to be thought out more before I post something about them and also have more discussions about other classes in general before posting about them.  This is just my quick opinion based on what I've seen and what I know from my guild discussions.  Possibly increasing the evade cap would help quite a bit as well for many classes as Aim/Eva seems completely useless for the most part. 

 

Anyways have fun and tear my list apart.

 

Each class has it's own uses and play styles to compliment other classes. Some classes are better in 1v1 than others. Some are better in group pvp than others, but they all hold their benefits. Some classes like Sorcerers, Ninjas, and Overlords help and I believe those classes are what should be focused on before fixing/nerfing others. 

 

Done. 

Edited by sean718, 02 May 2015 - 03:05 PM.

[Coolsam]

Buffs before nerfs I agree on. Give some buffs, wait a bit and see how they play, gather info and then perform proper nerfing.

Here's the 3 classes that need tweaking for buffs:
-Overlord: Currently downright balanced in both 1v1 and group. Has a high risk high reward style and was commonly considered downright middle tier. Never given much attention aside from 1 or 2 things.
-Ninja: Originally low risk, high reward style due to evade. Now you need HLT and movespd to make them viable. Still powerful with great combos and stuns, just more risk now.
-Sorcerer: Terrible 1v1 unless done right, amazing group potential. Tanky, but lack damage. Great combos and freezing, difficult catching.

GMs should simply just do this in future PvP balance discussions for updates:
"Hey Dragon Saga players! We're doing a PvP balance discussion. This time we need feedback on the following:" Then proceed to list specifics and work your way up.

[UraharaStore]

Can we have compensation items like last time? >.> 

[ohsnap]

Snipe needs either 1 of these changes to balance out the dmg it delivers. The vertical axis range decrease or the atkspeed scaling on it should be reworked or capped. 

[UraharaStore]

Yo how about pally gets instant bear back? it is gay as hell to load that shet.

[Coolsam]

Yo how about pally gets instant bear back? it is gay as hell to load that shet.

 

Aint real complicated. I've seen plenty of pally's properly time it to catch an oncoming opponent, then immediately follow with Cross-Cut due to it's vertical catching range. Opening up for a nice combo. I tried it on a Dragoon and found it hilarious when players blindly dash-dumped into the bear when you ambush with it.

[UraharaStore]

Aint real complicated. I've seen plenty of pally's properly time it to catch an oncoming opponent, then immediately follow with Cross-Cut due to it's vertical catching range. Opening up for a nice combo. I tried it on a Dragoon and found it hilarious when players blindly dash-dumped into the bear when you ambush with it.

Sorry I found it hard, and most of pally players quit because of that.

[Popcorn]

Thank you very much for all your suggestions and informations. It's a huge load of informations in here and it clearly shows that many things are imbalanced and for sure need a second thought.

 

Sadly I know for sure that everything you requested/suggested can't be changed for the time being. Many things have to be changed within the client which is unfortunately not possible at the moment. The "not hitting" Archer Shootdown bug for example. We tried to look into it already and are sadly not able to fix this now. At this point we reached the limits we have at the moment. We are aware this skill needs a fix and that it's wanted by everyone, but we found out that this is a purely client based bug which is not fixable by us at the moment. Like I said previously, it's a slowly ongoing process. 

 

We gather all your suggestions, bring them into a form and report them to the production team. In this step it can happen that I ask specific questions regarding specific skills to understand the problem completely and find out which impact a change would have to PvP and PvE players. This does not mean that the other suggestions are ignored. Please also always keep in mind: Any changes made to any skill will have an impact to PvP and PvE. In some cases we must find some sort of compromise or middle way solution that satisfies both groups of players. When making a suggestion please have always the other group of players in mind, just don't forget we are a community that consists of both PvP and PvE players. I assume a balancing will not be that easy and we (the community) will for sure have to live with some compromises which should be better than the situation we have now for some skills. 

 

We do not want having things changed for one of the groups by making the game unplayable for the other and vice versa. Like I said, we are a community and all of us do play the game together, no matter what kind of gameplay you personally prefer.

 

 

And with this in mind, by looking over this thread Stumblebum is mentioned a lot of times. Here are many players with a very good knowledge in PvP and PvE. To be honest I am not that deep in PvP, so can you do me a favor to answer the following questions regarding Stumblebum:

- How was this skill working in the past and what has been changed?

- What impact would a change have for PvP and PvE?

- What would you want to be changed exactly and if this would not be possible at the moment, is there something that can be done alternatively you would be okay with?

 

As I already said, just because I only ask about Stumblebum this time does not mean the other suggestions are ignored.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Edited by VModPopcorn, 02 May 2015 - 11:37 PM.

[noxis]

And with this in mind, by looking over this thread Stumblebum is mentioned a lot of times. Here are many players with a very good knowledge in PvP and PvE. To be honest I am not that deep in PvP, so can you do me a favor to answer the following questions regarding Stumblebum:
- How was this skill working in the past and what has been changed?
- What impact would a change have for PvP and PvE?
- What would you want to be changed exactly and if this would not be possible at the moment, is there something that can be done alternatively you would be okay with?

As I already said, just because I only ask about Stumblebum this time does not mean the other suggestions are ignored.

Thank you.

stumblebum has the same effect as it previously did but without the 100% stun rate. aside from that, the evade and aim rate debuff that it provides is significantly less useful with the current evade nerf. the skill works with an interruptible cast time and animation, stunning enemies within the players aoe. the range of the skill is not limited to ground targets but air targets as well. those caught will drop down from the air (if airborne) and assume the stunned animation stance. the player will then run over to the enemy/s he decides to attack and assume his preferred combos.

one thing to note is that if the cast is completed on a moving target, that target will then be stunned and debuffed wherever he lands. stumblebum will affect any players within its vicinity at the time of completing the cast, even if that player was active within that area for a split second. this isn't a problem to consider however, since the distance involved running to the target depletes the stun duration.

if reverted back to normal, the myrm class will now become a challenge in 1v1 as they were before, and much more of an asset in group pvp as they were before.

in pve, it would be used as crowd control for mobs just as it is now, albeit with a higher success rate. this skill wouldn't affect bosses in a major way if at all.

if a revert is not possible then i would consider sam and ero's humble suggestion. personally, a 100% stun rate like it was previously would be ideal.

[CharmanderIAH]

stumblebum used to stun 100%, now it is at most 54%

 

when you look at player stats, it does not change the opponents aim/evade stat like it used to.  I believe now, it only debuffs that base atk. which is pretty useless.

 

Before stumble hit with 100% stun rate along with 70% aim decrease on the opponent.

Now it hits with 54% stun rate with 30% base atk decrease I believe.  Either way the atk decrease doesn't do much, maybe at most a few hundred atk decrease which doesn't do anything against element or regular attack since main damage is from your weapon anyways which reaches the few thousands lol.

 

 

Ideally, lv 5 stumble would do what it did before, 100% stun with 70% aim decrease.

 

 

Alternative I wouldn't mind:

 

- Stumble hitting 54% stun at lv 5 but with 70% aim decrease

 

 

[flubsy]

Most of my knowledge comes from pvp.  Many people know the amount of pvp/bsq I do which is pretty much 90% of my time spent on this game.  A lot of my knowledge is from what I've seen from in-guild pvps, pvping with friends, and from random pvps I've done with people.

 

I don't think I need to go over the super armor from chain combo being ridiculously OP, especially against classes that need launch to do their main dmg.  Along with those that benefit from atkspd the most.  The two stats combined together just makes me question what's the point of having a skill tree.  

 

In all honesty, I would prefer no cdmg/cr/eva cap, but I think having some cap does promote some interesting builds.  Even if I don't agree with the cap rates.  

 

Either way there should be another forum topic discussing changes to classes and etc.  I feel as though many are biased towards their own class and want to keep the things that make their class strong asking for buffs without nerfs.

 

 

 Regarding stumblebum, as I have tested it with a variety of people in pvp and pve.

- How was this skill working in the past and what has been changed?

   --In the past it hit with 100% stun rate along with a 70% aim debuff.  Currently it has a max 54% stun rate with a 30% atk dmg debuff, I believe on your base dmg, not total dmg.  The atk dmg rebuff doesn't do much as well considering elements being implemented.

- What impact would a change have for PvP and PvE?

  --if the old stumble is brought back, myrmidons would not be as useless in pvp.  The current playstayle for myrm in pvp is high risk, decent to low reward in terms of dmg.  By bringing the old stumble back, the risk would be lessoned while the reward would stay the same making them a more viable class.

  --for pve having a reliable stun helps in a variety of ways and having the aim debuff would help in avoiding mob hits.

- What would you want to be changed exactly and if this would not be possible at the moment, is there something that can be done alternatively you would be okay with?

  --honestly I would like stumble to come back with 100% stun rate at lv 5 with 70% aim debuff.  Alternatives, I guess if it can't be done, having one or the other would be nice as well. As in having only 100% stun rate or 54% stun with 70% aim debuff.

[sean718]

 

  --honestly I would like stumble to come back with 100% stun rate at lv 5 with 70% aim debuff.  Alternatives, I guess if it can't be done, having one or the other would be nice as well. As in having only 100% stun rate or 54% stun with 70% aim debuff.

 

 

stumblebum used to stun 100%, now it is at most 54%

 

when you look at player stats, it does not change the opponents aim/evade stat like it used to.  I believe now, it only debuffs that base atk. which is pretty useless.

 

Before stumble hit with 100% stun rate along with 70% aim decrease on the opponent.

Now it hits with 54% stun rate with 30% base atk decrease I believe.  Either way the atk decrease doesn't do much, maybe at most a few hundred atk decrease which doesn't do anything against element or regular attack since main damage is from your weapon anyways which reaches the few thousands lol.

 

 

Ideally, lv 5 stumble would do what it did before, 100% stun with 70% aim decrease.

 

 

Alternative I wouldn't mind:

 

- Stumble hitting 54% stun at lv 5 but with 70% aim decrease

 

Both of your suggestions for 70% aim decrease as a backup will not yield the results you expect. Test it out.

[Coolsam]

And with this in mind, by looking over this thread Stumblebum is mentioned a lot of times. Here are many players with a very good knowledge in PvP and PvE. To be honest I am not that deep in PvP, so can you do me a favor to answer the following questions regarding Stumblebum:

- How was this skill working in the past and what has been changed?

- What impact would a change have for PvP and PvE?

- What would you want to be changed exactly and if this would not be possible at the moment, is there something that can be done alternatively you would be okay with?

 

As I already said, just because I only ask about Stumblebum this time does not mean the other suggestions are ignored.

 

Thank you.

 

In the past; it had a 100% stun rate and decreased their aim rate and a little of their attack for a duration. It was changed to a fixed stun rate (54% @ 5/5) but had kept the aim/attack debuff. The debuff after the aim/evade rework gave Myrms Ninja-like evade @ 5/5 unless they faced naturally high AGI classes and was 100% chance regardless of level. So it was changed again to an evade debuff.

 

It was considered a reliable catch for Gladiators>Overlords in PvP. Even after it's nerf it's still used as an opener for combos due to a good 360 degree radius. It was an attempt-counter to Emergency Exit and Weaving's block rate. In PvE however, the stun-chance reduction made it less useful in F7, which was the only mode I would use it in PvE wise.

 

Keep it an evade debuff, as aim-reduction at the moment is a game breaker balance wise. Revert it's stun chance to 100%.

 

 

 

Both of your suggestions for 70% aim decrease as a backup will not yield the results you expect. Test it out.

 

Any aim-debuff right now is going to make the skill immensely unbalanced. As stated, when the aim and evade numbers were reworked, stumblebum's aim debuff was considered quite powerful. I saw common misses on non-AGI classes @ similar level and it was at low cooldown and good range. With an Invoker's Casting Acceleration, it was instant-cast making them insane in group PvP with them as a nice catch-assistance.

[noxis]

70% aim decrease barely affects sorcerers as well as pathfinders with aiming. it will slightly affect agi classes. and moderately affect non-agi classes. as for a testing this out. feel free to take your maximum aim rate and reduce it by 70% and see how well it works against various levels. this would affect lower levels much more than higher levels simply due to the fact that most lower levels are not stacked. keep this in mind. 

 

there may be some slight misinterpretation from what i've said.

 

aim debuffs will cause non-stacked players to miss much more often than players who are stacked. players who are stacked at end-game with more than sufficient aim rate will not be as affected.

 

aim rate is also based on level differences between players.  

Edited by noxis, 03 May 2015 - 07:20 AM.

[tZerot]

Final Decision

 

[Homurasan]

Come with your aim rate debuff, I'm a Sorcerer ! \o/

[Agitodesu]

Stumblebum used to lower aim, Now it lowers opponents evade. Which I find very helpful since I had around 130 aim back in the old aim rate system. I would love to see stumblebum receive the 100% stun rate back and still keep the lower evade debuff. I always loved to bully overlords since I play it myself and I know what they are weak to(abuse overlords entire skill base with flinch skills)Overlords have 2-4 anti flinch skill which is pretty useless in most cases though. They should also receive other buffs other than stumblebum. I find the damage they do compared to other classes extremely low. High burst potential then the respective cool down time after the burst costs more (Loses more dps) than it should be. I play both pvp and pve, but I suck at pvp with overlords so maybe its just that (pm me if you wanna pvp my overlord lvl 82).

Edited by Agitodesu, 03 May 2015 - 09:55 AM.

[zirothos]

Character Info: Regen speed HP/MP need to been added in the menu: be able to see what is the regen time after getting a buff or item bonus.

 

Change The AIM/Evade System it’s feel weird in PVE: I can miss a monster when I got the same lv and even higher and i got  an AGI build.

 

Change the Critical rate system based on lv. What I mean is when you lv up you lose some rate cause the number of critical rate: ex: 2664 = 15.2% for my invoker 81. But if I’m lv 80 the same number will be higher 16.1% (all number is fictive).

 

PVE:

 

Magician:

 

 

 

Magician’s Wisdom: Bug: If you have an Ultra Regen Mana Speed and you cast the Spell the regen speed come back to normal. (Or if you cast the spell all bonus regen speed you got is gone).... it’s hard to see but i know the bug is there.

 

Monk:

 

Rain of fire: Bug: sometime doesn’t touch the target.  (Elemental damage bonus) (Can be put to lv 10) Where is the card? (Card need to be added)

 

Priest:

 

Quagmire: Why is this skill not able to touch Elite monster, but other spell that is almost the same for other class will touch.

 

Chain Lightning: This spell can go to lv 10. Where is the card? : Card need to be added.

(If possible change the spell effect like I say with in my other answer)

 

Invoker:

 

Healing Wave: These spells need to be replace by an new Support skill, we have already too much healing spell.

 

(Ultimate skill) Lightning storm: need to be based on total magic power and not weapon power.

 

That all for Magicians Monk side. I will check other class and make my report. 

Edited by zirothos, 03 May 2015 - 11:41 AM.

[falcoford]

Stumblebum used to lower aim, Now it lowers opponents evade. Which I find very helpful since I had around 130 aim back in the old aim rate system. I would love to see stumblebum receive the 100% stun rate back and still keep the lower evade debuff. I always loved to bully overlords since I play it myself and I know what they are weak to(abuse overlords entire skill base with flinch skills)Overlords have 2-4 anti flinch skill which is pretty useless in most cases though. They should also receive other buffs other than stumblebum. I find the damage they do compared to other classes extremely low. High burst potential then the respective cool down time after the burst costs more (Loses more dps) than it should be. I play both pvp and pve, but I suck at pvp with overlords so maybe its just that (pm me if you wanna pvp my overlord lvl 82).

 

Stumblebum does not lower evade bro. it hits with 54% stun rate with 30% base atk decrease. It is really bad lol

 

Barbarian that Monks have at level 10 is 89% chance to freeze 5 enemies for 4 seconds and it has no cast time so it is  instant. 

 

Stumblebum at level 10 has 59% chance to stun 5 enemies for 1.5 seconds and decrease base atk and it has a casting time. 

 

Something is obviously wrong here.

[noxis]

Stumblebum does not lower evade bro. it hits with 54% stun rate with 30% base atk decrease. It is really bad lol

 

Barbarian that Monks have at level 10 is 89% chance to freeze 5 enemies for 4 seconds and it has no cast time so it is  instant. 

 

Stumblebum at level 10 has 59% chance to stun 5 enemies for 1.5 seconds and decrease base atk and it has a casting time. 

 

Something is obviously wrong here.

 

barbarian at level 10 has an 89% chance to freeze but is only obtainable by farming or buying blue poison mushroom cards, either of which are time consuming.

 

stumblebum at level 10 does have 59% stun rate at level 10 which also requires cards and is also time consuming to achieve, which is why it's being discussed.

 

i would prefer stumblebum having 100% stun rate as previous and instant cast time and a movement speed debuff of about 20%.