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[We need Feedback] Class Balancing - Twins - Summoners - Invoker


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#201 StormHaven

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Posted 11 September 2015 - 07:05 PM

It could be meant as buff all classes so no one can complain, since every other class is op. It could be buffing every class to summoner standards for example, Broom jab hitting 15 times. and cross cut hiitting 9 times at the same speed as original. I'm sure a Crossing Broomnado can demolish a summoner with enough elemental dps, and mean while if you do something dumb like get stunned or get caught, summoners can x spam you to death. Nothing too serious. You cant complain when you and summoner can equally kill as fast depending on situation.


Ok sure, find a way to buff a class,without giving it invincibility, to the point where it can 1shot a summoner while being hit with spirit counter attack. Honestly your opinion of buffing everyone to insane levels is what the devs have been doing since New Origins and this is what we have. But yea lets go back to the days of 90% evade invokers, 100% evade Ninjas,Savages,Sentinels,Destroyers and fighters who would also be on that list with back in the day buff everyone to OP. Lets not forget that Permanent 100% Block Dragoons did happen for 2 weeks. The only time buffing everyone to OP is in Moba's and even then they STILL have to nerf characters repeatably.
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#202 Coolsam

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Posted 11 September 2015 - 07:53 PM

Don't ever uber-buff all low-tier classes. Unless they're so bad a major reworking of their skills are needed. Which is only the case in MOBA's.

 

The reason we can't just god-mod all classes is because it'd just obliterate the game. No sense of fun or challenge will exist. And with how screwy some mechanics are in this game (Useless stats, whether always or made with an update) it'd make the situation even worse.


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#203 Agitodesu

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Posted 11 September 2015 - 08:43 PM

Yes and with the summoner still currently still able to x spam anyone from 100-0 as the highest dps, Invokers who can still cast the interchangeable combo with magnet->barbarian->Heavens wraith->barbarian enough to last around a 10+seconds of cc, Twins who can still run around with high movement speed with light speed which can be kept up all the time if buffed properly and blocks, are still op at all even after the nerfs and it makes the game a challenge or fun then no? BSQs with multiple Summoners and Invokers probably show the strengths of a class. The more people play a character it is probably stronger than the ones not played at all. And I don't feel like the devs have been buffing all the classes to insane levels. Just a few classes that have become top tier ever since elements came out. It all matters on classes with hits per second (of course hits that apply elemental damage). More hits you can proc in the least amount of time is top tier. Unless you can name classes that are used in bsq that are more useful or outdamage summoners/invokers/twins would be helpful.(with the exception of sorcereors since they excel at team play and have good long lasting cc with the cost of not being able to kill everyone as fast)I had nearly or slightly over 10k elemental attack, and nearly 100k attack. The fact that on the overlord I was hitting around 2-4 k per hit was sad. Stumble double nado did less damage than less than 2 seconds of an invoker/summoner/twin/destroyer. the fact that my combo is only 11 hits with a slight chance of air recovery was not as strong as the latter. Of couse if they had 10k element that would be scary since even with 3-4k element the amount of dps is insane. To come and defend this arguement will be hard. But as it still stands most games will always be unblanced. It's either buff every class to a certain degree or nerf every class to a certain degree to balance them-> If we do balance everything out if it ever happens it would be the same as if everyone was strong or weak.

 

Also banning skills instead of having a high cooldown is worse than not having a skill at all. Why not have a skill with a cooldown of 10-20 minutes or even slightly less over removing it completely? Why not reduce the amount of elemental damage put out by summoners/invokers? reducing the amount of skills needed to fight in an arena is not very fun. Being able to use a skill once is better than never being able to use a skill at all. 


Edited by Agitodesu, 11 September 2015 - 08:52 PM.

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#204 flubsy

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Posted 11 September 2015 - 08:47 PM

The problem I have is, we're getting to the point where we're basically getting rid of so many skills in the skill tree or a whole skill tree for bsq/ew that it's making certain skills completely pointless to have. 

 

What's the point of playing a game where you can't use 3-5 moves or even more in your skill tree because it's been nerfed or "banned" from play.  I mean some classes don't get affect because there is no consequence to them, but instead of completely omitting the skill, it should just have a different cool down or % dmg or etc...  To me this seems a bit ridiculous, and it's coming from someone that isn't a summoner, invoker, twin.


Edited by flubsy, 11 September 2015 - 08:47 PM.

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#205 Popcorn

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Posted 11 September 2015 - 11:27 PM

What's the point of playing a game where you can't use 3-5 moves or even more in your skill tree because it's been nerfed or "banned" from play. 

 

The skills are not banned from play - they are banned from PvP because they cause imbalances. You can still use them PvE-wise.

 

 

 

 I mean some classes don't get affect because there is no consequence to them, but instead of completely omitting the skill, it should just have a different cool down or % dmg or etc...  To me this seems a bit ridiculous, and it's coming from someone that isn't a summoner, invoker, twin.

 

As I said several times, we would like to debuff some skills in PvP instead of blocking them, but at the time being this affects PvE too and the community does not only consists of PvP players. When the day comes we can do PvP balancing on another way, we will be happy to do this. Until then what we did is the only way to balance the PvP. 


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#206 flubsy

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Posted 12 September 2015 - 03:46 AM

PvP is also part of play.

 

Debuffing certain skills do not affect PvE.  The easiest one to come to mind is Spirit Counterattack as that skill is pure pvp.  If you block Spirit Counterattack, might as well block revenge from pvp in general, this includes Hallucination from Sentinal, and Revenge from Dragoon and Revenge Earrings right?

 


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#207 SoulSight

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Posted 12 September 2015 - 03:58 AM

Oh, block is a part of pvp, they neft too! You know why flubsy.
Edit : I think block is not necessary in pve.

Edited by SoulSight, 12 September 2015 - 03:58 AM.

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#208 Popcorn

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Posted 12 September 2015 - 03:59 AM

Debuffing certain skills do not affect PvE.  

 

The skills stay like they are now until we are able to debuff PvP seperated from PvE. I mentioned several times that we are not able to only debuff in PvP in our current state of possibilities.

 

Or we could have decided to go the same way like the korean devs with Final Decision and SpearJab/Crosscut, which ruined the classes for PvE just to balance PvP and made many players quit. We won't do anything what affects PvE that much, even Lightning Magnet was a hard decision.


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#209 flubsy

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Posted 12 September 2015 - 07:34 AM

the problem with the "balance" the korean devs brought was basically nerfing every single skill instead of nerfing 1 thing.  For example, nerfing TR basically nerfed all of the paladin's skills.  But instead of taking 1 step, they took 5 steps by having a cast time on bear, nerfing block, shared cool down of xcut/broomjab, barricade blocked, etc...

 

By debuffing things like revenge or emergency exit so they have a shorter skill duration or longer cool down doesn't affect PvE so much as they are specifically made for PvP.  

 

If anything they should bring back certain skills and lower cool downs of certain moves of other classes, like ninja.  

 

There's a balance to everything, certain classes counter other classes hence the reason for the whole team aspect.  By trying to get rid of this ruins team play and promotes solo play which imo isn't the point of playing an MMO.


Edited by flubsy, 12 September 2015 - 07:35 AM.

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#210 Zimzang

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Posted 13 September 2015 - 03:54 AM

 

By debuffing things like revenge or emergency exit so they have a shorter skill duration or longer cool down doesn't affect PvE so much as they are specifically made for PvP.  

 

 

 

Sorry but i would like to differ. Emergency exit isnt made just for PVP. Im a PVE invoker and when in elga (esp 3rd form) where he likes to spam that OHKO fire of his, the EE helps alot when you cannot run fast enough to the safety area. I personally feel that EE's CD is more than sufficent


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#211 Coolsam

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Posted 13 September 2015 - 06:34 AM

Emergency Exit is exactly in it's title; an emergency button to block your team from damage and pull them to safety from dangerous and lethal AoE's. PvE-wise, a perfect support skill.

 

PvP-wise, this skill was abused. More so by the fact that while it didn't pull teammates, it did give them 100% block in BattleSquares. Meaning seeing the entire enemy team blanketed in one Emergency Exit was common when they started locking a huge group down.


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#212 sean718

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Posted 13 September 2015 - 07:24 AM

The skills stay like they are now until we are able to debuff PvP seperated from PvE. I mentioned several times that we are not able to only debuff in PvP in our current state of possibilities.

 

Or we could have decided to go the same way like the korean devs with Final Decision and SpearJab/Crosscut, which ruined the classes for PvE just to balance PvP and made many players quit. We won't do anything what affects PvE that much, even Lightning Magnet was a hard decision.

 

Understandable. The skills that were blocked in PvP work as intended for PvE, and are currently removed from PvP until further modifications can be made. I won't argue with that reasoning since the blocked skills can be fixed further down the line to be usable in PvP modes. 

 

While we are on the subject of blocking skills, I believe Spirit Counter should be on the top of that list. It still kills certain classes instantly if their skills hit the summons.

 

*Forgot to read patch notes. Caught up.


Edited by sean718, 13 September 2015 - 07:26 AM.

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#213 SoulSight

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Posted 13 September 2015 - 07:57 AM

Things are messed up because the Korean dvs make up so many skills with low cooldown which ends up spamming and locking.
For example
Dragoon are the most failed class.
Anti-air shot locks people instead of shooting in free fall with extremely low cooldown.
Sword Dance + Hammer Crush in perfect time...(no more comment)
Rain of fire is strong in early stage but due to attack speed, it's gradually weak. It will cure witch cruse in pvp -> sadly become uncommon. But this will be a nice skill if we buff and fix this skill. Monk is an x-spammer class so low cooldown skill is fine.
Barbarian + witch cruse is really a nightmare when these two skills can cast repeatedly due to short cooldown and long effect.
Beside rain of fire, people commonly use spark rock because of good effect.
Sniping has low cooldown and high damage. Destroyer has 400% critical damage cap, an agility class can easily reach 40% final critical rate.
Let just calculate in standard damage. 5 times of sniping, snipe brings 10 times of normal damage, 40% final..well, how about 2 critical damages in 5 hits? So we will have : 3 times of 10 times of normal damage ( 30 times of normal damage ) + 2 critical damages of 10 times of normal damage ( 2x4x10= 80 times of critical damage ) = 110 times of normal damage in very short period of time not included crux shot.
Shootdown launches, damages victims in huge range from the air...many class does not have air catching skill in air and...it's hard to dodge, sometimes it even causes lag damage and effect.
About Sentinel, even of low cooldown skills, it's quite hard to combine every skill in 1 combo because of effect (StormHaven understands this)
Rolling rock (correct the name if I'm wrong) : Basically this class spams X stronger than skill so there is no point to skill because of damage but effect.
=> so clearly, because of effect, most people skill it. If original attack is stronger than skills, people will use original attack.
A dragoon with attack speed build, I can think of chain combo spam...it will be a nightmare.
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#214 sean718

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Posted 13 September 2015 - 08:37 AM

Things are messed up because the Korean dvs make up so many skills with low cooldown which ends up spamming and locking.
For example
Dragoon are the most failed class.
Anti-air shot locks people instead of shooting in free fall with extremely low cooldown.
Sword Dance + Hammer Crush in perfect time...(no more comment)
Rain of fire is strong in early stage but due to attack speed, it's gradually weak. It will cure witch cruse in pvp -> sadly become uncommon. But this will be a nice skill if we buff and fix this skill. Monk is an x-spammer class so low cooldown skill is fine.
Barbarian + witch cruse is really a nightmare when these two skills can cast repeatedly due to short cooldown and long effect.
Beside rain of fire, people commonly use spark rock because of good effect.
Sniping has low cooldown and high damage. Destroyer has 400% critical damage cap, an agility class can easily reach 40% final critical rate.
Let just calculate in standard damage. 5 times of sniping, snipe brings 10 times of normal damage, 40% final..well, how about 2 critical damages in 5 hits? So we will have : 3 times of 10 times of normal damage ( 30 times of normal damage ) + 2 critical damages of 10 times of normal damage ( 2x4x10= 80 times of critical damage ) = 110 times of normal damage in very short period of time not included crux shot.
Shootdown launches, damages victims in huge range from the air...many class does not have air catching skill in air and...it's hard to dodge, sometimes it even causes lag damage and effect.
About Sentinel, even of low cooldown skills, it's quite hard to combine every skill in 1 combo because of effect (StormHaven understands this)
Rolling rock (correct the name if I'm wrong) : Basically this class spams X stronger than skill so there is no point to skill because of damage but effect.
=> so clearly, because of effect, most people skill it. If original attack is stronger than skills, people will use original attack.
A dragoon with attack speed build, I can think of chain combo spam...it will be a nightmare.

 

Some of what you say is true. But, there is a heavy lack of in the justification of your reasoning. You are simply speaking in the lengths of ideal situations, which group pvp or even regular pvp rarely is. There is a multitude of ways to prove your argument ineffective. I will agree some skills need to be further modified. That is hard to say which skills and to what extent because doing so steers the direction of balance in different ways. PvP in this game is heavily competitive, I honestly do not like to see people complain too much due to lagg, or effects, or this skill is stronger than that skill because honestly, I could play all of these classes extremely well and justifiably well against any other opposing or "godlike class". That obviously can't be said for the whole community, but that is no merit of reason to make this game more casual. Last time I checked, the specific version of this game wasn't an application game and does not earn revenue as such. 


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#215 SoulSight

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Posted 13 September 2015 - 08:51 AM

Not only 3 classes we are discussing about but acknowledgeably, the game will change and the change will also bring impact to other classes.
In reality, common class is the class brings imbalance!

Edited by SoulSight, 13 September 2015 - 08:53 AM.

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#216 IceDragon

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Posted 13 September 2015 - 06:33 PM

When a Twin steps on a Freeze trap. They can still attack because the user twin is frozen but the other twin is not...

I have a radical suggestion... Can we swap skills for the twins? What i mean is, most of the skills a twin uses to attack is his doppleganger. The only attack the user uses is a normal X or Stun Punch. The reason i suggest this is because a Twin can use one of his dragon kicks and run more than half across the screen.

I don't know if its possible but can the twins damage be reduced when they are farther away from each other?

Another suggestion is to add drawbacks or side effects from certain skills. For example: Twin will have a lower defense when he uses the skill to make him run really fast. He gets more vulnerable when using his twin? negative status.

To sum it up:

Switch Twins Twin skills or some at least(maybe combine cooldown?If the are switched), The twins share status. EX:Freeze from landmine. Negative Status to balance out certain skills when used,


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#217 Popcorn

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Posted 13 September 2015 - 09:28 PM

To sum it up:

Switch Twins Twin skills or some at least(maybe combine cooldown?If the are switched), The twins share status. EX:Freeze from landmine. Negative Status to balance out certain skills when used,

 

Sadly not possible (at least not yet). But I will write it down for future discussions.


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#218 gogo123456

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 05:49 AM

When a Twin steps on a Freeze trap. They can still attack because the user twin is frozen but the other twin is not...

I have a radical suggestion... Can we swap skills for the twins? What i mean is, most of the skills a twin uses to attack is his doppleganger. The only attack the user uses is a normal X or Stun Punch. The reason i suggest this is because a Twin can use one of his dragon kicks and run more than half across the screen.

I don't know if its possible but can the twins damage be reduced when they are farther away from each other?

Another suggestion is to add drawbacks or side effects from certain skills. For example: Twin will have a lower defense when he uses the skill to make him run really fast. He gets more vulnerable when using his twin? negative status.

To sum it up:

Switch Twins Twin skills or some at least(maybe combine cooldown?If the are switched), The twins share status. EX:Freeze from landmine. Negative Status to balance out certain skills when used,

 

I hope that your opinions and insights are not base on you 1v1 a twin and lost. Because there is different sequence when you 1v1 a twin and group PvPing with a twin.

 

From what i have read from your post, those thing normally happens when you try to 1v1 a twin, so don't fight them 1v1 if you can't deal with them.

 

 

Sadly not possible (at least not yet). But I will write it down for future discussions.

 

I believe that the twins class concept is made almost entirely for PvP purposes since they are powerless in bosses like Elga. Thus if you take away their strengths and specialities in PvP, what are left of them?

 

I'd sincerely hope there will be room for reconsideration as the previous ''balancing'' is already a setback for them.


Edited by gogo123456, 15 September 2015 - 05:52 AM.

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#219 monkeydo

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 06:10 PM

Balancing PvP is not easy. At the moment we have some "problems", we are limited to the following possibilities the time being:

 

- increasing/decreasing cooldowns (this affects PvE too, so only not PvE breaking changes are wanted by us)

- blocking complete skills from using in BSQ/EW

 

Touching the skills in any other way (nerf) would affect PvE in the exact same way and changing skills by a debuff is not possible until we're able to change the client. Some of the "bad" nerf examples were: Final Decision, the shared cooldown between CrossCut and SpearJab

We don't want such things happening again.

 

We are also aware, that there are problems with the implementation of the element system, but we can't change anything without changing the client in this case. 

 

So far we are thinking about following:

 

- Blocking Rebound (Twin) from BSQ/EW 

- Increasing the cooldown of Magnet (Invoker) by 3 seconds (we think this has no big impact to PvE)

- Blocking PowerWeave (Twin) from BSQ/EW

- Increasing the cooldown of Smart Shot (Summoner), so the cooldown is at least the same as the duration and setting casting time to instant

- Blocking Instant Heal (Monk) from BSQ/EW (but keeping all other heal skills)

- Increasing the cooldown to 120 seconds of Emergency Exit (Priest) or blocking it from BSQ/EW

- Blocking Exit (Bandit) from BSQ/EW because Shadow Walk and Burrow are blocked in PvP too

 

All these changes are not carved in stone yet. Opinions? We know especially the players of the affected classes may start to rage, but please see it from the point of view of the other classes which have no chance against some of these skills.

 

 

 

among the 7 proposed changes 3 affects invokers. Why do invokers always get the short end of stick? Magnet is only good during multi players pvp..in 1v1 its basicaly stall time for us to charge our awkening or buff ourself. I dun mind blocking instant heal but increasing cooldown for emergency exit is destroying pve since during dungeon we use emergency exit  alot n the cooldown is just perfect. If you want just block it during pvp but not increase the cooldown.

 

I am curious why is summoner so OP but what the proposed change is to only increase the cooldown of smart shot, why not nerf the smart shot altogether? Yes it will affect PVE but its only fair since they are the only class that clears dungeon at insane speed and also god tier in PVP. they have best of both world. I've read through the pages and it seems to me not much has been done for the insane dmg summoners deal. Not sure whether this is going to change soon as the complaints have been here for years

 


Edited by monkeydo, 04 October 2016 - 06:18 PM.

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#220 Dragonlark

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 09:19 AM

Please refrain from bumping old threads. If you would like to start a new topic along this thread, you may do so and provide a link to this older thread, however bumping these old threads, is against the forums rules. 


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