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#1 Talvis

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 05:31 PM

Most decently good skilled and geared mvpers on renewal know that mvping is relatively easy.  A lot of mvps in the game can be soloed and the rest can usually be killed with a minimal party.  So, the point of this thread is to design a mvp that requires a full party to take down or even a RO raid boss type situation.  What sort of stats, skills, ai patterns, etc. would it take to actually make an mvp a  challenge again.

 

I'm thinking their hp would have to be crazy high and many countermeasures to require multiple killers.

 

Some ideas I was thinking:

 

100mil+ hp

1 vit or very low vit to minimize the effect of acid bomb and similar skills/items

Very high flee so that Rangers can't hit 100%, not so high that they never hit but high enough so they can't be relied on as the sole killer.

moderately high chance of changing to ghost property whenever gfist is used.

Stone skin at low hp

 

I'm not an expert at RO mechanics, so feel free to add your own ideas of how to make a challenging mvp.


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#2 ShoLin

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 06:28 PM

Sura MvP with tiger canon


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#3 Nirvanna21

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 08:39 PM

Group MVP killing can be a pain, loot splitting is god awful. And let's get this right, making money is pretty important in RO > challenging MVP.


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#4 ZeroTigress

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 12:36 AM

Instead of having god items drop from WoE castles, make it so god items drop from super special awesome god bosses in raid instances that have a 1-week cooldown. Who wouldn't want to take on Jormungandr, who could wipe an entire 12-person party with one sneeze? Or Lady Hel who could use Hel Power to keep people from being able to use Resurrection? Or how about Thor himself who could cast not one but TWO Earthquakes in one hit?
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#5 Necrohealiac

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 05:00 AM

the point is to be able to have MVPs that are challenging and requires team play to take on. just giving them skills that dish out an absurd amount of damage because that's the only way to make them "hard" isn't the way to go.

the mechanics in RO aren't conducive to this sort of sophistication imo. this is a game where you can spam consumables throughout a fight and bosses don't have aggro tables; as long as you don't get one shot by an ability you will always be able to stay alive. no aggro table relegates melee to secondary buffers, damage soakers (although I can't think of any other spell that splits damage besides EQ). maybe they can work on the slaves but you can't really kite them away and the boss just resummons them anyway.

I'm not sure if kRO has the capability of making these sorts of changes, much less interest. how are RO2 boss encounters like? are they like raid encounters in other MMOs, or are they like RO1?
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#6 arrowspear

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 07:21 AM

  1. Better Reward System. Instead of loots, you will get coins that you can collect and exchange for random prize including the chance of getting a boss card.  The more you participate a dungeon raid, the more chances of getting good items.
  2. Better Party Role System. Make a boss or  mob monster vulnerable to a specific type of offense skill. No staple MVP killer class.  Amount of damage added to that skill is propotional to that offense skill cooldown and number of hits. No one shotting MVPs. No staple boss killer. Add chances of using debuff skill vs player to mob monster. So, that the party requires support type members.

Edited by arrowspear, 18 June 2015 - 07:21 AM.

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#7 Talvis

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 07:33 AM

Group MVP killing can be a pain, loot splitting is god awful. And let's get this right, making money is pretty important in RO > challenging MVP

Instead of having god items drop from WoE castles, make it so god items drop from super special awesome god bosses in raid instances that have a 1-week cooldown. Who wouldn't want to take on Jormungandr, who could wipe an entire 12-person party with one sneeze? Or Lady Hel who could use Hel Power to keep people from being able to use Resurrection? Or how about Thor himself who could cast not one but TWO Earthquakes in one hit?

This isn't meant to be an argument about how people are too greedy to do something where they may have to share the reward.  However, though, this problem could be fixed by having the mvp in a instance and the reward be given by some sort of npc after the battle giving every member of the party a random reward.

While giving a major reward like a god item could be a good idea, they better not be a 100% chance since that would flood a already flooded server.

The point of this thread is to design a mvp encounter that requires a full party with the limited abilities of RO.  There are some interesting monster skills that I forgot about like hell power, though something like that would only make sense coming from certain monsters.  Hopefully I can get some more ideas from seasoned mvpers on how to make mvps truly challenging.


Edited by Talvis, 18 June 2015 - 07:34 AM.

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#8 Talvis

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 07:42 AM

 

  1. Better Reward System. Instead of loots, you will get coins that you can collect and exchange for random prize including the chance of getting a boss card.  The more you participate a dungeon raid, the more chances of getting good items.
  2. Better Party Role System. Make a boss or  mob monster vulnerable to a specific type of offense skill. No staple MVP killer class.  Amount of damage added to that skill is propotional to that offense skill cooldown and number of hits. No one shotting MVPs. No staple boss killer. Add chances of using debuff skill vs player to mob monster. So, that the party requires support type members.

 

1. good idea for a loot system

2.  That's one thing I would like to see, making it so you can't just solely rely one one skill.  That's why I had put low vit to minimize the effectiveness of AB or chance of changing to ghost property if gfist is used too much.  Crazy high flee to make it so a Ranger couldn't solely rely on AS (not 100% miss, though)

What are some other ways to achieve this?


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#9 arrowspear

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 09:24 AM

1. 

2.   Crazy high flee to make it so a Ranger couldn't solely rely on AS (not 100% miss, though)

What are some other ways to achieve this?

 

 

Instead of high Flee rate, why not give them high Demi- human damage resistance except damage from Arm Cannon as an example. 


Edited by arrowspear, 18 June 2015 - 10:15 AM.

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#10 Havenn

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 10:23 AM

Biolabs mutant, 100m HP, all skills of all 12 Bio3/4 MVPs, form of creature changes on HP but is randomized, skills are not based on current form. Shifting stats of 1 vit (counter bomb), 300 luk (counter crit), 700 flee (counter normal hit) stat piercing debuffs so you're forced to bring multiple resistance gears, lv10 EQ with a random cast timer and that anti-token skill from SM (Hell's dignity? not sure)

 

I'm sure I can think of some more evil things, but I am all for something like this


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#11 Necrohealiac

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 10:50 AM

Biolabs mutant, 100m HP, all skills of all 12 Bio3/4 MVPs, form of creature changes on HP but is randomized, skills are not based on current form. Shifting stats of 1 vit (counter bomb), 300 luk (counter crit), 700 flee (counter normal hit) stat piercing debuffs so you're forced to bring multiple resistance gears, lv10 EQ with a random cast timer and that anti-token skill from SM (Hell's dignity? not sure)
 
I'm sure I can think of some more evil things, but I am all for something like this


an mvp like this would be difficult to be sure, but more annoying than anything else as far as taking him out. what sort of teamwork/coordination will be required for this fight? you have strings, ME, healer or two, tank, and fill the rest of the party with RKs and Genes. anyone who isn't one of these classes would be there strictly to absorb EQ dmg and spellbreak; their own skills are utterly useless. the class composition is really no different than a group you'd take to bio4, ET, or just normal BB popping. hell the strings and ME could even be dual-cliented and would be left alone until you needed to refresh the ability.

because it's probably impossible to make mvp mechanic changes like adding an agro table, I feel the easiest option to implement would be to have things happen throughout the encounter that will require people in the party to take care of. things such as:

maybe an npc shows up during the encounter that requires healing and will reward a buff to the group or help damage the boss/remove some sort of immunity
monster spawns that need to be wiped out for fight to continue
mechanisms that need to be triggered in order to prevent the mvp from casting an insta-wipe skill

you don't necessarily need to make the mvp hit super hard or have a humongous health pool (there's a kRO vid of an RG soloing the nightmare OGH MVP so it clearly isn't all that effective). by making the encounter more immersive you can have it remain challenging by making it more skill-based and not something you can just outgear. doesn't matter how shiny your equips are if you can't coordinate well enough to prevent the insta wipe ability from going off.
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#12 Havenn

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 11:06 AM

Hmm, I totally didn't think of DB. Well, let's make it holy defense then XD - though that again leaves the vulnerability to CC Dark very high. I thought it would be nice to mix up the luk/flee to counter a crit/normal attack at different times. It's a really tough game to make something like this....I guess that's why im in support and not dev :X

 

You're right that there needs to be some sort of external challenge to the boss itself, such as a trigger mechanism/puzzle of some sort maybe. Time limits are always fun too.


Edited by Havenn, 18 June 2015 - 11:08 AM.

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#13 Necrohealiac

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 11:26 AM

yeah since skills like CC and DB don't miss, it's tough to make an mvp that doesn't result in it completely favoring one or a few classes over everyone else.

trigger mechanisms and timers are definitely things that they should be able to do since they have aspects of it in the game already. sealed shrine (in theory) has those altars you need to drag bapho to in order to remove his invulnerability. the instance also has triggers that will spawn monsters when you run out of the main room.

same with time limits. nidd's instance will warp the party into separate rooms after a time (because it's RO obviously this continues to happen even after you kill the boss but w/e). I think the Malaya hospital instance has something similar as well, although from what I've read this can be cheesed.
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#14 Havenn

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 11:40 AM

Oh god, if you screw up Bangy long enough GL, just give up. 


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#15 Necrohealiac

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 11:43 AM

can't say I've had the pleasure of being sucked into a box so I shall take your word for it :x
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#16 Havenn

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 11:46 AM

That's buwaya, there is a cheese way around that. If you mess up bangy long enough, it just becomes an absolute mess of mob clearing/timers. I haven't done it in forever, but when I did, if you miss the first 60 sec timer - just stop. 

 

I guess this proves that the possibilities are there, we just need to implement them in more things. 


Edited by Havenn, 18 June 2015 - 11:46 AM.

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#17 Talvis

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 11:52 AM

Having map features to add to the battle would add to the challenge. Nyd's teleport event is a good one especially since if you're too slow he can full heal. Unfortunately he is too easy to kill if the killers are well prepared and he dies before the first teleport.
Ent in ET is another good example, though be is obviously doable with a minimum party. I'm curious how small parties deal with him since you almost have to kill at least 4 thorns to effectively attack him.

Keep the ideas coming.
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#18 Necrohealiac

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 11:55 AM

pnemua neutralizes all the thorns. you just need to be on point with them.

@Havenn: ah, ok. I've never experienced any of the Malaya instances outside of bakonawa.

Edited by Necrohealiac, 18 June 2015 - 11:59 AM.

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#19 Havenn

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 11:58 AM

Kami did Ent solo without any tokens =[. My Ent took 3 tokens (dat pneuma running out x.x) solo, but I also had no God's.


Edited by Havenn, 18 June 2015 - 11:59 AM.

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#20 arrowspear

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 12:00 PM

We could add level to dungeon. From hard to Insane difficulty level. Ofcourse, the reward will be much greater if you finish highest difficulty. I have given up biolab instance because I main on Ranger and that instance has few use for rangers idk.

 

The goal is to have fun. And, MVP hunting without limit on what character class to play in a party.


Edited by arrowspear, 18 June 2015 - 12:03 PM.

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#21 Necrohealiac

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 12:01 PM

you could easily two man ent with a sura tank. snap into existing pneuma where you would be getting hit by all the thorns and let the killer go to town. for added safety have sura equip 2x pneuma clips and go into MS. easy-peasy.
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#22 Havenn

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 12:13 PM

I never thought about using 2x pneuma accessory. I'm doing that next time I solo Ent. 1 isn't enough. It's cake with a Sura though.

 

Biolabs instance can be done with Ranger as killer quite well actually, it can also be cheaped soloed if you're careful on a ranger. 

 

Bio instance is kinda nuts without a sura tank, but I don't recommend it. I only ever did it because spikey forgot his sura was still on CD. It was glorious fighting Alchemist MVP without a Sura, but quite messy.


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#23 Nirvanna21

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 12:49 PM

This isn't meant to be an argument about how people are too greedy to do something where they may have to share the reward.  However, though, this problem could be fixed by having the mvp in a instance and the reward be given by some sort of npc after the battle giving every member of the party a random reward.

While giving a major reward like a god item could be a good idea, they better not be a 100% chance since that would flood a already flooded server.

The point of this thread is to design a mvp encounter that requires a full party with the limited abilities of RO.  There are some interesting monster skills that I forgot about like hell power, though something like that would only make sense coming from certain monsters.  Hopefully I can get some more ideas from seasoned mvpers on how to make mvps truly challenging.

 

The issue with RO is the best way to encourage partys to group kill MVPs would be to either give players a individual shot with loot (like giving them a treasure box that can give X amount of items @ a % chance), or increase drop rate by X number of party members.

 

The problem with this is, people would bring additional people to abuse this feature then.
 

As for a difficult MVP, that would be simple.

 

Hell's Power, 100mil HP, Instance based (like OGH), mechanics similar to Nydd tele room.

 

Giving boss monsters Earthquake makes them harder but it really is a cheese skill so I am against this.

 

The loot this "super boss" drops would need to be amazing and for all classes. Maybe class specific accessories that do some amazing -_-.


Edited by Nirvanna21, 18 June 2015 - 12:49 PM.

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#24 ZeroTigress

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 01:59 PM

I'm not sure if kRO has the capability of making these sorts of changes, much less interest. how are RO2 boss encounters like? are they like raid encounters in other MMOs, or are they like RO1?


RO2 has dungeon bosses and raid bosses, both of which (used to) provide a fair amount of challenge to take down. Definitely couldn't solo them due to mechanics such as threat meters and rage timers. You really need to have everyone in your party know what the heck to do and what not to do in order to succeed in defeating them.

I'd love to see RO MVPs get the same treatment, but given how they still haven't updated monster AI after 13 years of RO's existence, I'm not going to hold my breath.
 

This isn't meant to be an argument about how people are too greedy to do something where they may have to share the reward.  However, though, this problem could be fixed by having the mvp in a instance and the reward be given by some sort of npc after the battle giving every member of the party a random reward.
While giving a major reward like a god item could be a good idea, they better not be a 100% chance since that would flood a already flooded server.
The point of this thread is to design a mvp encounter that requires a full party with the limited abilities of RO.  There are some interesting monster skills that I forgot about like hell power, though something like that would only make sense coming from certain monsters.  Hopefully I can get some more ideas from seasoned mvpers on how to make mvps truly challenging.


Unfortunately, due to how RO's loot system is designed as a free-for-all, it's not possible to have a party be fairly rewarded for effort they put into a battle. Players can go into a battle and get absolutely nothing for their efforts, which really isn't encouraging. An after-battle NPC that compensates for that would be a good fix.

Other games like FF14 do have bosses similar to what I described in my post and they're totally defeatable. But they do require a fair amount of planning and strategy, which is probably too much for the average RO player to comprehend.
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#25 Necrohealiac

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 07:15 PM

RO2 has dungeon bosses and raid bosses, both of which (used to) provide a fair amount of challenge to take down. Definitely couldn't solo them due to mechanics such as threat meters and rage timers. You really need to have everyone in your party know what the heck to do and what not to do in order to succeed in defeating them.


threat meter would be a massive step forward, if it's possible.
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