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Making an actually challenging mvp


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#26 Kadelia

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 07:41 PM

A GOOD START WOULD BE MAKING MVPS IMMUNE TO RANGER HITLOCKING


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#27 Nirvanna21

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 07:57 PM

Oddly enough, that doesn't change a lot. I often find hunting in uncontrolled areas I find myself tanking anyways.

 

If you try hitlocking in uncontrolled areas then either MVPs will teleport away, others will have used the setup time to land the first blow etc etc.

 

A real boss challenge requires pushing multiple classes to their limits. It requires AI that responds wonderfully to general build orders. But most of all, it requires a useful and fair loot table to encourage the attempts at killing it.


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#28 ZeroTigress

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 08:10 PM

A job class revamp would be necessary to give each a distinct specialized role so everyone can be made useful instead of the few that are able to do a little bit of everything.
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#29 Kadelia

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 08:56 PM

whatabout a boss that becomes immune to all skills except one every 10 seconds or so, and the pool of skills it takes damage from is like one from every class


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#30 Baturiano

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 08:59 PM

an enrage timer would be neat. i've been playing a lot of ff14 and been doing a lot of raids. the mechanics are legit but the most prominent one was the enrage timer. if boss isnt killed in x amount of time it will one shot the entire party


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#31 Nirvanna21

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 09:13 PM

Personally, making a generally difficult boss is one thing but a common technique used in various raiding situations to promote a challenge is by having the boss spawn a random set of mobs for a set instance of the boss that focus on suppressing certain techniques.

 

For example, an anti-auto warg or basically anything long ranged non-magic projectile would be something like a mob that...

  1. cast endure
  2. move to casting range of the player
  3. cast pneuma
  4. waterball spam

But it's just an idea, still other parts one would need to think of.

 

Enrage timers are okay but doubt they would work well in RO. It's all about dishing out mass damage in short time nowadays so it's more about making it difficult or impossible to achieve that which would be what makes or breaks a difficult MVP.


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#32 ZeroTigress

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 10:13 PM

an enrage timer would be neat. i've been playing a lot of ff14 and been doing a lot of raids. the mechanics are legit but the most prominent one was the enrage timer. if boss isnt killed in x amount of time it will one shot the entire party


Rage timers only work in games in which the majority of player skills have cooldowns so parties have to coordinate when to use skills. Whereas RO skills are too unbalanced for a rage timer to be a thing since there are skills that could easily take off chunks of a boss's HP much sooner than it would take for a rage timer to activate.
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#33 6773131031232342973

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 11:10 PM

Try Warlock MVP and you will have a true and sad challenging experience


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#34 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 11:23 PM

Give MVPs the ability to cast Oblivion, Toxin and Death Hurt, Soul Siphon, and screen-wide Pneumas. Also give them Reflect and DA on a high chance from Cast Sensor.

 

yw


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#35 Aizenath

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 04:01 AM

What about an MVP that can counter attack?

The counter could be anything from debuffs to the party, to self buffs to the MVP, to screen wide attacks, etc. 

 

Or if the MVP has a copycat attack that will make it copy whatever skills, buffs, items are used by the party and use them on himself/the party accordingly, whatever attacks you used on the MVP they will be used on yourself, imagine taking down 99% of the MVP's hp and then someone decides to use an ygg berry while the copycat attack is on!!

 

OR let the MVP have a huge weakness to a certain weapon every time you fight it but you have to guess which weapon it is while you fight it(meaning you have to take hundreds of weapons with you and try them all), the weapon then will be reset each fight to prevent abuse. 

 

An MVP that would require not only careful planning before fighting it but quick decision making and good party communication while fighting it would be awesome and most importantly, FUN.


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#36 Kadelia

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 05:03 AM

MVPs being hitlocked at 12+ cells is like sacrilege to the whole process because you have a situation where someone is soloing an MVP meant for a party, isn't even taking damage from the MVP, and is killing the MVP with no further effort than holding down a button. Everything about this screams "WRONG". This one needs to be one of the first player strategies to get the axe.

 

Other bugging tricks that keep the MVP from fighting back should also always take priority.

 

 

 

 

On another note, how about MVPs all start casting a variation of "Hells' Power" that prevents token of sigfreid usage, but not resurrect? Token-spamming to solo MVPs with earthquake is another strategy that needs to be eliminated.


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#37 Necrohealiac

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 05:17 AM

forget about hitlocking, you can straight up use ankle snare on instanced mvps.
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#38 Kadelia

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 05:37 AM

thats horribad


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#39 KamiKali

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 05:43 AM

MVp that has AOE bellum flail effect + hells power. True hard mode.
1vit, high defense, poison property, uses endure, walks through ankle snare like fenrir, spams ganbeintein on the party

The rest is 'nuff said

Edited by KamiKali, 19 June 2015 - 05:44 AM.

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#40 Talvis

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 03:00 PM

whatabout a boss that becomes immune to all skills except one every 10 seconds or so, and the pool of skills it takes damage from is like one from every class

I would be curious if this were possible with RO's limited abilities, or a lot of other suggestions listed here.  They could probably upgrade monster ai abilities, but given how far behind we are on updates, we probably would never see it.

 

Rage timers only work in games in which the majority of player skills have cooldowns so parties have to coordinate when to use skills. Whereas RO skills are too unbalanced for a rage timer to be a thing since there are skills that could easily take off chunks of a boss's HP much sooner than it would take for a rage timer to activate.

How much different would RO be if RO skills had cooldowns like other mmos or if potions had cooldowns on them?  It would definitely add a different challenge to the game.  No more potion spamming to solo everything.  That would probably piss off half the playerbase.

 

What about an MVP that can counter attack?

The counter could be anything from debuffs to the party, to self buffs to the MVP, to screen wide attacks, etc. 

 

Or if the MVP has a copycat attack that will make it copy whatever skills, buffs, items are used by the party and use them on himself/the party accordingly, whatever attacks you used on the MVP they will be used on yourself, imagine taking down 99% of the MVP's hp and then someone decides to use an ygg berry while the copycat attack is on!!

 

OR let the MVP have a huge weakness to a certain weapon every time you fight it but you have to guess which weapon it is while you fight it(meaning you have to take hundreds of weapons with you and try them all), the weapon then will be reset each fight to prevent abuse. 

 

An MVP that would require not only careful planning before fighting it but quick decision making and good party communication while fighting it would be awesome and most importantly, FUN.

Having a possibility of random variations of a mvp would add a interesting element to the game.  It would have to be part of the instance script since I doubt monster ai could do that.

 

MVPs being hitlocked at 12+ cells is like sacrilege to the whole process because you have a situation where someone is soloing an MVP meant for a party, isn't even taking damage from the MVP, and is killing the MVP with no further effort than holding down a button. Everything about this screams "WRONG". This one needs to be one of the first player strategies to get the axe.

 

Other bugging tricks that keep the MVP from fighting back should also always take priority.

 

 

 

 

On another note, how about MVPs all start casting a variation of "Hells' Power" that prevents token of sigfreid usage, but not resurrect? Token-spamming to solo MVPs with earthquake is another strategy that needs to be eliminated.

Creative idea.  Given the mentality of some people to prefer soloing everything over partying, it may piss people off.  But, screw them, this is to promote party play!

 

forget about hitlocking, you can straight up use ankle snare on instanced mvps.

That's because a lot of the instance bosses aren't mvp flagged.  You can tell because they have health bars.


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#41 ZeroTigress

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 03:47 PM

How much different would RO be if RO skills had cooldowns like other mmos or if potions had cooldowns on them?  It would definitely add a different challenge to the game.  No more potion spamming to solo everything.  That would probably piss off half the playerbase.


It'd be a lot more balanced since fighting would boil down to strategy instead of who's able to spam the potion key faster.

Of course it'd piss off the RO playerbase. They're too used to the spam-hotkey method of fighting.
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#42 Necrohealiac

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 05:08 PM

That's because a lot of the instance bosses aren't mvp flagged.  You can tell because they have health bars.


no dude, you can use ankle snare on mvps in instances like ET and OGH because they can't tele.
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#43 Talvis

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 05:38 PM

no dude, you can use ankle snare on mvps in instances like ET and OGH because they can't tele.

Doesn't ankle snare have a very short duration on mvps, though?


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#44 Nirvanna21

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 06:01 PM

Doesn't ankle snare have a very short duration on mvps, though?

 

Some do, bigger mvps even trigger multiple traps due to sheer size.

 

MVPs being hitlocked at 12+ cells is like sacrilege to the whole process because you have a situation where someone is soloing an MVP meant for a party, isn't even taking damage from the MVP, and is killing the MVP with no further effort than holding down a button. Everything about this screams "WRONG". This one needs to be one of the first player strategies to get the axe.

 

Other bugging tricks that keep the MVP from fighting back should also always take priority.

 

 

 

 

On another note, how about MVPs all start casting a variation of "Hells' Power" that prevents token of sigfreid usage, but not resurrect? Token-spamming to solo MVPs with earthquake is another strategy that needs to be eliminated.

 

It's a pretty easy fix, just give them Endure. I do hope they do this if they make this party aspired MVP, but I hope they don't apply it to other MVPs. RO is not a party friendly game to be honest, and with it's current structure would be to easy to exploit if it was.

 

Now anti-tokens on the other hand does seem interesting. I hate using tokens in instances and find that it improves a players general performance by learning NOT to rely on them. I do think sometimes they are nice to have, say when you are doing BBs, someone is stalking and you are worried you will die to say... a cheap shot (curse you Lord of the Dead...).

 

But it would need to be a part of a bigger balance. MMOs encourage party play, but RO doesn't and can't be easily fixed without bringing in many exploits.


Edited by Nirvanna21, 19 June 2015 - 06:08 PM.

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#45 Necrohealiac

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 06:05 PM

Doesn't ankle snare have a very short duration on mvps, though?


just bring a bunch of traps. haven't tried it myself but can mvps be knocked back still? if so you can just keep repelling them for days. i know people made a bunch of hunters just to farm gtb, and rangers can use traps to kill the ogh mvps.
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#46 Nirvanna21

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 06:09 PM

just bring a bunch of traps. haven't tried it myself but can mvps be knocked back still? if so you can just keep repelling them for days. i know people made a bunch of hunters just to farm gtb, and rangers can use traps to kill the ogh mvps.

 

I do it without traps, just good positional hitlocking <3


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#47 Sladeero

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 10:17 AM

Hello,

Not sure what thoughts are on this but make it so polar opposite elements do massive damage and the same elements "heal" the MVP. Healing with element would only work with MVPs. Additionally have a MVP which changes its defense and attack elements at random. That would make it hard. This way no one person could go crazy all the time.

Update- another thing is the party would have to perform a quest for clues on how to attack the MVP. This way a party does not just show up to spam buttons. You have to think about it in order to do a strategy. It would reward teams which can quickly adapt.

Edited by Sladeero, 20 June 2015 - 10:22 AM.

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#48 ZeroTigress

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 11:25 AM

Hello,

Not sure what thoughts are on this but make it so polar opposite elements do massive damage and the same elements "heal" the MVP. Healing with element would only work with MVPs. Additionally have a MVP which changes its defense and attack elements at random. That would make it hard. This way no one person could go crazy all the time.

Update- another thing is the party would have to perform a quest for clues on how to attack the MVP. This way a party does not just show up to spam buttons. You have to think about it in order to do a strategy. It would reward teams which can quickly adapt.


That's so Final Fantasy.

I like it.
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#49 Sladeero

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 12:19 PM

That's so Final Fantasy.

I like it.


Yea, I was thinking the same thing before I posted it.

Let's face it, it's too easy to hit the IroWiki pages on monsters and plan ahead. Thinking on your feet is the way to make folks sweat it out hahaha.

Often times I see folks asking Qs about gears and equipment related things than the monsters. I mean there's a flipping encyclopedia on each monster. It really should be the other way around. Detail more so on the gears and less on the monsters for more spontaneity.

Just my $0.02.

Sladeero
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#50 ZeroTigress

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 10:12 PM

Yea, I was thinking the same thing before I posted it.

Let's face it, it's too easy to hit the IroWiki pages on monsters and plan ahead. Thinking on your feet is the way to make folks sweat it out hahaha.

Often times I see folks asking Qs about gears and equipment related things than the monsters. I mean there's a flipping encyclopedia on each monster. It really should be the other way around. Detail more so on the gears and less on the monsters for more spontaneity.

Just my $0.02.

Sladeero


Even if players use a cheat sheet, the boss could still be challenging if the AI is done right. Also, getting a party of players that each know what they're doing isn't easy. You're bound to come across a Leeroy Jenkins.
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