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PvP stat balancing discussion


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#51 Homurasan

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 12:34 PM

Just let that aside. I won't ask you anything anymore, it's bad for my health.


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#52 Agitodesu

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 01:34 PM

 

 

Easier to balance stats. Since it is the core compared to another added variable (Elements).

Less variables= easier to balance. 

Balancing classes would be easier without elements taken into consideration

 

 

This is why I suggested taking out elements in general. I posted a couple reasons why it should stay.

To Homurasan :

For me, you are a passionately curious to know elaborately tiny stuffs in-game I admit. You are the way much more curious than I am but allow me to tell you.

To test a hypothesis, people have to analyze their data to draw conclusions through the experimentation and observation. To conclude accurately, researchers have to control as many factors as they can to gather 1 dependent variable or 2 at most, 3 is extremely rare (or even failed test)!

Non-Elemental damage variation is uncontrollable, how can you control to conclude the formula? I've never found out anyway.

What in the absolute potatoes is this. It's true to a certain extent, but insignificant in its own way. We already have so many variables untouched. Fixing the core stats (foundation) without elemental application should be the top priority.

 

Here's what I think about the entire system of elements.

 

Currently in PvP, elements are the primary source of damage. This can only be true once you have reached equilibrium in attack and defense.

Ex:Only way to out damage elements, as of normal means in pvp, is to have defense significantly lower to the other persons attack.

 

If we were to take off  elements right now. End game players will be doing around 100-400 damage normally(exception of some skills such as snipe etc)

Considering most people have around 80,000 hp, it would be a pain to kill them without so said elements.

 

So what this damage means is that the range of damage by normal means is very low, therefore insignificant, leading to the damage source to be ranked as secondary.

 

The system is swapped. In my opinion, instead of adding elements in the first place, fixing the default attack/defense would have been the best thing to do. Adding another source (element) which was probably not intended to be a primary source in damage to be a primary source may be a mistake.

 

If elements weren't the central theme in market, farming, and pvping as heavily as it is now, reducing/removing elements to balance the game as a whole would be logical. Elements should either not exist or appear as a secondary source in damage.

 

As for the variables, we have many things to use instead of elements. We have Attack/Defense, Evade/Aim, CD/Cr, Agi/Int/Hlt/Str(please buff), and so on to balance the game instead of just relying on elements. Fixing these core stats should be top priority.

 

Why add more to a system with a weak foundation?


Edited by Agitodesu, 07 October 2015 - 01:39 PM.

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#53 SoulSight

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 01:47 PM

To Agitodesu : Well stated!

 

I don't think evade rate has to be controlled too much because of being nefted, it's easily to control.

It's just ridiculous when they dodge by resistance. By a certain amount of resistance (of course pretty much higher than attack), the attackers miss!

 

And we're gonna nerf element so do we need to nerf hlt?  :hmm:


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#54 Agitodesu

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 01:53 PM

You do not need to nerf Hlt if you balance damage. Lets say attack>defense by a certain rate, will do more damage causing Hlt to be useful rather than useless. Damage will also be useful so you do more damage (duh). Making each stat (agi/str/int/hlt) useful in its own way would be a pretty cool idea to compensate elemental damage.


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#55 SoulSight

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 01:59 PM

If we were to take off  elements right now. End game players will be doing around 100-400 damage normally(exception of some skills such as snipe etc)

Considering most people have around 80,000 hp, it would be a pain to kill them without so said elements.

 

Because I'm reading this. Buffing hlt and nerfting element at the same time would be a pain.


Edited by SoulSight, 07 October 2015 - 02:00 PM.

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#56 Agitodesu

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 02:02 PM

That's assuming if we nerf/buff/fix/change 1 stat a week+ 


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#57 SoulSight

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 02:16 PM

For health, come discuss this for more healthy health in end-game!

CLICK IT!


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#58 StormHaven

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 03:02 PM

For health, come discuss this for more healthy health in end-game!

CLICK IT!

 

See's here's the thing, people complain that they are a "low health"  class compared to other classes, but  low health classes in DS do.not.exist. Even now is the super HP nerfed state it's still possible to reach 60-100k hp in pvp without BSQ buffs on  any class.


Edited by StormHaven, 07 October 2015 - 03:11 PM.

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#59 SoulSight

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 03:27 PM

See's here's the thing, people complain that they are a "low health"  class compared to other classes, but  low health classes in DS do.not.exist. Even now is the super HP nerfed state it's still possible to reach 60-100k hp in pvp without BSQ buffs on  any class.

 

Depends on classes, the formula is different. It's a stereotype that 

Agility classes deserve to have high dodging and low health;

Rangers classes deserve to have low health and good damage.

 

And reality, low health classes in DS do.not.exist! Rangers have a lot of hp; "Why does a Ninja invest so much health instead of evade rate?"

It's all because of formula. It really needs fixing.


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#60 5143121023173906760

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 03:52 PM

"Why does a Ninja invest so much health instead of evade rate?"
It's all because of formula. It really needs fixing.

...You never wore the PoS set on ninja, don't you ?

Edited by 5143121023173906760, 07 October 2015 - 03:53 PM.

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#61 SoulSight

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 03:58 PM

...You never wore the PoS set on ninja, didn't you ? 

Even I never wore POS set on ninja but no matter how much evade rate they have, my 6k aim rate can hit accurately. Therefore they invest health.

If you mean health from POS, oh yes, a lot of health! (I don't disagree)


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#62 Precrush

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 02:45 AM

After boosting through this thread here's what I have to say.

STAT REWORK:
Stat rework is indeed needed for the sole reason of giving players more options. I support lifting the caps, which are never a real fix. Dodge and aim should balance out better though, so a change in the way they are calculated would be needed if the caps were to be removed.

Related to this I think int and str should give around 3-4 times more dmg then they do now. This would lift them to be amongst the useful stats.

When it comes to changes with cdmg and crit I think the caps weren't needed in the first place, I don't remember anyone complaining about them on the eu server prenerf. I do remember people quitting because of the nerf though, which is why you should be careful and ready to make further changes depending o how the players respond.


ELEMENT BALANCE:
I fully support either what op suqqested or making 6* cards drop more and either buffing resist cards or the resist itself. Like it has been said completely nullifying peoples work would be disasterous so making element useful in both pvp and pve but not needed would be good.

NEW SETS AND BSQ CHANGES
New sets are always good, so +1 for that. The way cp is earned now is a problem though and I do like the suggestions you made. Bsq is quite dull and ranked pvp is a joke. For bsq (and emporia, but thats another story) I would like to see modes that are based on teamwork, so everyone could feel useful, not just the most op people. For this a domination style point holding system or a defend/attack thing like in 1-2 star emporias would be nice. In the current bsq mode I think holding a flag should give the player some major debuffs, such as lowering defence/health and movement speed. This would discourage running with the flags, buff teamwork and increase fluctuations whit in the match.

Ranked pvp needs a complete change, I dont think anyone has ever done it anyway other than the leave rejoin farm since the first week it came out. Ranked pvp is one of the most fun and desired things in games and its a shame ours is how it is. I suggest removing the level differance cap. If a player wants to take fights he is certain to lose this should be allowed. However, winning a player that is losing a lot should reward way less cp.

Also, fights that do not go on for long enough should reward little to no cp. And I do not remember how the player ranking for ranking works, I seem to remember it being based on the cp you have which would be stupid since you can spend it, but winning a high ranked player should obviously matter more then winning a low ranked one. Changes to the ranking system might be too bothersome to make or impossible for now but I think making a legit ranked system would add a major new aspect to the game.


This was written on a phone with a really small screen so sorry for any typos.


Edited by Precrush, 08 October 2015 - 08:52 AM.

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#63 Agitodesu

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 07:51 AM

Glad someone has almost the same opinion as me ;)
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#64 SoulSight

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 12:00 PM

I'm bringing along these posts to this topic for easy discussing. I don't mean post to post or sake of post whatever. Hopefully this helps.

 

the 1:11 ratio came from the group of older players that were testing elements with an old GM to figure it out. We didn't start to see a drop in element damage until we did ~100 attack vs ~1000 resistance(thus the 1:11 basic ratio was born). At about 30k Res vs an Elemental weapon the damage became 1 regardless of how much element we could stack at that time, vs normal weapon with elements socketed on element damage was reduced to 0 or 1, while normal damage wasn't effected.

 

With many thanks to the person who shared this with me. As you maybe can see, 210~230 resist brings about 1% resistance to elemental damage. Which means that 23k resist completely nullify elemental damage of one type. This 1:11 ratio is at least wrong, and at most stupid.

 

0dHKhR8.png

 

yFVnaUj.png

 

 

Wazam. 1-7k damage against 18758 resist.

 

Basically the reduction of elemental damage is a flat 86%.

 

Likewise the more resists you stack the % gets higher.

 

Leading to 100% cap. Reducing no matter how much elemental attack you have.

 

 


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#65 Bustincaps

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 02:41 PM

Way too lazy to read 3 pages of text walls.... I just have one question.

 

 

Why are we, the players, vouching for Evade to be UNNERFED? This was the number 1 biggest problem in the entire game post-nerf, and EVERY player that PvPed complained about it. I don't necessarily disagree with some of the other balancing suggestions that were made, but "let's unnerf Evade" seems a little extreme. I can't believe I am actually reading it, to be honest. If not needing to stack AGI is the main concern for this Evade suggestion, think of it this way: rather than stacking AGI so you can hit your enemy in PvP more than once every 3 out of 10 hits or so, or stacking AGI so you walk right through people's attacks in PvP, you can now stack any skill that you'd like to (and this doesn't mean AGI doesn't still have a purpose, because it has plenty). How is this not a better alternative? Sorry if my comment is out of place, considering there have already been 3 pages of discussion that I haven't bothered to read, but I couldn't help but speak up on the matter.


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#66 Agitodesu

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 03:25 PM

You see its to make evade and aim more useful. Your'e trying to say "lets take out aim and evade in general", We are trying to bring back evade, but in a controlled way where it makes an impact in the game not "walk in front of 10 people and not get hit" sorta logic.


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