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PvP stat balancing discussion


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#26 StormHaven

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 06:54 AM

DSxRO will most likely not be making a comeback since Gravity gave up DS to WP.  :(


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#27 SoulSight

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 07:02 AM

DSxRO will most likely not be making a comeback since Gravity gave up DS to WP.  :(

2 choices

- Ask them the left over work

- Develop it ourselves 


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#28 StormHaven

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 07:22 AM

Those aren't options and we're not going get off topic here so stop.
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#29 Agitodesu

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 07:42 AM

I would like to recommend RO valkrey sets for level 75 and 85. Even though I feel like I would be the only one to get them.

Anyways I think bsq needs a lot of work for many reasons other than balancing classes and stats. That's why I haven't posted my opinion on it yet, I try to think about all players so others can agree with me to a certain extent, or if they disagree they can use my cons to support their own reasons.
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#30 SoulSight

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 03:33 PM

I have forgot #5! 5 is undeniable since it's indirectly confusing new players.


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#31 SoulSight

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Posted 03 October 2015 - 05:12 AM

I have reread and thought for awhile

 

These are balancing changes I've been tumbling around for a long while.

 

1. Reverting,CD,CR,Evade, Block, HP nerfs.

 

Feel free to discuss,rant,etc. I'll come back to this later to polish it up when I get time today.

 

I have some opinions

- Reverting CD, CR is no difference with buffing in pve but it's unavoidable.

+ If we can set it limit in pvp like the presence, it won't effect in pvp in the future and pve is fine.

+ Evade rate limit should be expanded but the formula needs reworking. Since Evade rate is reworked, aim rate should be reworked again. However, at least evade rate and aim rate options don't become so unnecessary in-game.

+ Block rate limit should be expanded but the effect should be reworked. I suggest : Block effect and take damage less.

-> Players will have more options/choices to use socket. There will more people gather goods for special socket.

 

I would like to add more suggestion (hopefully I'm not going off topic)

Since people thumbs down strength and intelligence stat, I suggest reworking on it like armor penetration when we rework element at the same time.

-> People will have more options for bonus stat instead of thinking agility or health only.


Edited by SoulSight, 03 October 2015 - 01:51 PM.

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#32 Agitodesu

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Posted 04 October 2015 - 09:06 AM

I think adding a CP bonus in battle square would be nice in relation to either points held or in relation to teams total points.

Having a set bonus will cause afks to happen in bsq, but in my opinion, I would think to myself, why would players afk in bsq for Cp other than maybe a job change and a lofty ban. Usually a dedicated person that wants cp would have enough will power to stay in and earn what they will be wearing to get better in that bsq for the set. Some stats may be useful in pve too.

Having ranked bsq would be pushing the already inactive battle squares. Having ranked being open at a specific time would be a hassle and some stackers can abuse this by the alignment of time and other players only needing it for job change.
Meanwhile on job change, I know that it can be done a different way with the achievement route , but those who want to speed the process at leveling may be behind in achievements. Battle square ranked should at least give more cp than you would get from a death match or elimination.

Reducing elements can significantly speed up the process of some players stacking and joining battle square be it just 1 +20 backpack can keep you alive for more than 5 seconds instead of dying in 1 or 2 seconds sometimes even faster.

This is a dumb idea and goes against my logic of adding more bsqs, but having gear limitations with 2 or more zones with within the level range could be nice if bsq was active, such as:
Easy mode +10 gear or less
Hard mode no rearictions anyone can join

And make it so the game will not allow you to enter or equip anything higher than +10.

As of right now, elements are they key cause of new players unable to have a good experience even if they manage to deck out the old way [+20 legend], you would still die in less than 10 seconds depending on the class whacking you.

Fixing bsq should be last to fix.

Changing element and stats, then
Change sets and or add more, then
Fix bsq, then
Change set cp cost according to bsq, then
Then see what happens, fixing all these at the same time will yield unexpected results that will most likely cause more problems.

Just a quick thought, wrote on my phone so it may be not well organized or have everything I have to say.

Edited by Agitodesu, 04 October 2015 - 09:08 AM.

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#33 SoulSight

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Posted 04 October 2015 - 11:38 AM

 

 

This is a dumb idea and goes against my logic of adding more bsqs, but having gear limitations with 2 or more zones with within the level range could be nice if bsq was active, such as:
Easy mode +10 gear or less 
Hard mode no rearictions anyone can join

 

Not dumb at all ! Allow me to add my idea to your idea. We can have 2 battlesquares : Nonranked and ranked ones. Nonranked battlesquare will give less reward than ranked battlesquare.


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#34 Zackx23

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Posted 04 October 2015 - 01:55 PM

When there would be a PvP rework of Evade and Aim then I definetly suggest a rework of Aim/Evade in PvE as well since even a Woodie got 100% aim on a lvl 85 player with full evade. I want Evade be useful in PvE again as well.


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#35 Agitodesu

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Posted 04 October 2015 - 07:49 PM

When there would be a PvP rework of Evade and Aim then I definetly suggest a rework of Aim/Evade in PvE as well since even a Woodie got 100% aim on a lvl 85 player with full evade. I want Evade be useful in PvE again as well.

 

 

I hope you don't try to evade Elga's flame attack if the rework happens ._.


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#36 Zackx23

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Posted 05 October 2015 - 12:54 AM

I hope you don't try to evade Elga's flame attack if the rework happens ._.

 

Elga should have a lot of aim. I would suggest that the "lowest aim amount" is for field and mission map monsters, "medium aim amount" for mission map bosses and "highest aim amount" for dungeon bosses. And then surely depending on the lvl difference between the player and monster. But still I would suggest a minimum % of aim from the monster, like 25% or something. So to come back to my Woodie story: Even a Woodie would be able to hit a lvl 85 with full evade but every hit got a chance of X% like it was back then.


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#37 Homurasan

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Posted 05 October 2015 - 02:18 AM

I don't feel like Evade against monsters is anything worth considering... Would it be the "I didn't dodge this attack for various reasons including my lack of reaction but I won't take any damage if I can roll a 6 on my dice" stat ? If so, I can't help but feel like it's pointless.

 

Attacks that players are supposed to dodge can be manually avoided, and attacks that are supposed to hit everytime are... well, unavoidable, so I can't see the point in having a stat that prevents player from taking damage by avoiding an unavoidable attack. Or maybe you'd have to then specify which attack is affected by Evade and which isn't, so that players can't simply stand in a deluge of fire without being harmed... but I still can't see the point in something that gives a random chance to avoid an attack that one can manually dodge.


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#38 StormHaven

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Posted 05 October 2015 - 02:40 AM

I don't feel like Evade against monsters is anything worth considering... Would it be the "I didn't dodge this attack for various reasons including my lack of reaction but I won't take any damage if I can roll a 6 on my dice" stat ? If so, I can't help but feel like it's pointless.

 

Attacks that players are supposed to dodge can be manually avoided, and attacks that are supposed to hit everytime are... well, unavoidable, so I can't see the point in having a stat that prevents player from taking damage by avoiding an unavoidable attack. Or maybe you'd have to then specify which attack is affected by Evade and which isn't, so that players can't simply stand in a deluge of fire without being harmed... but I still can't see the point in something that gives a random chance to avoid an attack that one can manually dodge.

 

You're right, but every monster attack in the game can be manually dodged(Some just require more precise timing than others) excluding Elga's Form 3 OHKO fire attack, which requires the bubble to block.


Edited by StormHaven, 05 October 2015 - 02:42 AM.

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#39 SoulSight

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Posted 05 October 2015 - 04:09 AM

Hopefully hallucination and mind reading (and motion capture) work on correct purpose (even in pve). Because of evade rate limit, not really common people use those skills. I miss the time that people buff evade rate every time they pvp  :p_smile:

It's very bad that agility class with low health amount have no ability to dodge. 


Edited by SoulSight, 05 October 2015 - 10:59 AM.

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#40 Agitodesu

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Posted 05 October 2015 - 09:09 AM

My opinion in evade is that it should have the maximum rate of 50-70%.
So basically if someone had like 900% evade someone of the same level with no aim should hit you a minimum of at least 30% or higher. Stacking aim on some classes are harder than others. Likewise stacking for aim defeats the purpose for variety. You give up building other features because of evade alone. You could argue you can rr all your equipment to 4 perfect stats.(that is the hardest thing to do at the cost of money). Simple way to put it is that evade is easy to stack and have the highest benefit. To counter this requires a lot more work than you would think. I know a few people would like to tell me off that they had the highest aim in the solar system, but most likely built soley aim.

As for monsters it should be 20% max to dodge attacks for little mobs. The thing homurasan was saying is true to a certain extent. Low level players will not have enough evade to take in benefits and expect to not get hit most of the time. Also players should be actively participating in the game, sure it might help end game with elga mobs and such, but in my experience in pve never did I ever say " man being able to dodge these attacks would be helpful" everything is manually dodgeable with the exception of the homing balls and such. We have potions, eggs, cakes, choco bunnies, and even feathers to help us.

But it would be nice for mobs to miss attacks sometimes. I still have nightmares on the starfishes doing the ultimate mob roll until I die or close the game XD

One thing to mention is that the % of maximum evade is just a close estimate to what I think could be, but it's up for the community/devs to work on. I'm not the best at explaining why.(organization skill=0)

Needless to say aim/evade should be reworked if it does get pushed through.

Edited by Agitodesu, 05 October 2015 - 09:22 AM.

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#41 SoulSight

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Posted 05 October 2015 - 06:10 PM

My opinion in evade is that it should have the maximum rate of 50-70%.

 

[...]

Needless to say aim/evade should be reworked if it does get pushed through.

Evade rate is easily built from IM set. With lv1 piece, soul capsule is cheap on market and also low cost of soulcrafting, people can literally choose what option they want for the first option.

Therefore at least people can build 24% evade rate for 8 pieces. However, with a little investment, people can have soulcraft-able accessories and use 4% evade rate option in each equipment which ends up 40% evade rate. Not included the jobchange ring that people can change option easily by exchanging the ring repeatedly, it's a lv20 accessory!

No agility involved and random evade rate option in default set...they could reach 70% easily.


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#42 Agitodesu

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Posted 05 October 2015 - 07:39 PM

 

My opinion in evade is that it should have the maximum rate of 50-70%.

The evade I meant as in 50-70% maximum is based on final evade rate. I know people who stacked over 800% evade back then, the thing your talking about is like the % that gear gives. Not final Evade.


Edited by Agitodesu, 05 October 2015 - 07:44 PM.

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#43 Zackx23

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 12:41 AM

My opinion in evade is that it should have the maximum rate of 50-70%.
So basically if someone had like 900% evade someone of the same level with no aim should hit you a minimum of at least 30% or higher. Stacking aim on some classes are harder than others. Likewise stacking for aim defeats the purpose for variety. You give up building other features because of evade alone. You could argue you can rr all your equipment to 4 perfect stats.(that is the hardest thing to do at the cost of money). Simple way to put it is that evade is easy to stack and have the highest benefit. To counter this requires a lot more work than you would think. I know a few people would like to tell me off that they had the highest aim in the solar system, but most likely built soley aim.

As for monsters it should be 20% max to dodge attacks for little mobs. The thing homurasan was saying is true to a certain extent. Low level players will not have enough evade to take in benefits and expect to not get hit most of the time. Also players should be actively participating in the game, sure it might help end game with elga mobs and such, but in my experience in pve never did I ever say " man being able to dodge these attacks would be helpful" everything is manually dodgeable with the exception of the homing balls and such. We have potions, eggs, cakes, choco bunnies, and even feathers to help us.

But it would be nice for mobs to miss attacks sometimes. I still have nightmares on the starfishes doing the ultimate mob roll until I die or close the game XD

One thing to mention is that the % of maximum evade is just a close estimate to what I think could be, but it's up for the community/devs to work on. I'm not the best at explaining why.(organization skill=0)

Needless to say aim/evade should be reworked if it does get pushed through.

 

Sounds a bit like a modified version of the old Aim/Evade when Paris Patch was introduced (but in a better way). A definite aim for every player in PvP is a must have so even with low aim you can hit someone with max evade at least to 30% (even when it is kinda low because it's 30% every hit and if you got bad luck you will miss 10-20 hits or something)

The thing in PvE is that the monsters should at least "feel" an impact of evade AND block. I mean you have low aim and you miss the monsters so why not vice versa (and not that every monster has 

∞ aim)? And that block is not really working in PvE is also kinda sad nowadays.

(BTW the Katar Blocking skill description is completely wrong. 5% block on lvl1 but you get only 2%. Also do Def. Rate and Block DMG work together if yes, in what way?)


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#44 SoulSight

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 03:28 AM

The evade I meant as in 50-70% maximum is based on final evade rate. I know people who stacked over 800% evade back then, the thing your talking about is like the % that gear gives. Not final Evade.

Oh i see! Unity set gives final evade rate doesn't it? If so, it will be ideal for agility classes.

 

(BTW the Katar Blocking skill description is completely wrong. 5% block on lvl1 but you get only 2%. Also do Def. Rate and Block DMG work together if yes, in what way?)

 

I do not "research" on Ninja much but if you are sure that the description is wrong, would you mind posting here ?


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#45 Agitodesu

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 07:45 AM

Unfortunately I feel like many people don't feel like contributing here with opinions :(

Edited by Agitodesu, 06 October 2015 - 07:46 AM.

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#46 SoulSight

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 08:41 AM

Unfortunately I feel like many people don't feel like contributing here with opinions :(

I think we have gone far enough. We should wait for the takeover development.
I'm out of idea either.
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#47 Agitodesu

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 08:56 AM

3-4 opinions should not change the game alone.
And most of them are about fixing evade/aim

Edited by Agitodesu, 06 October 2015 - 08:57 AM.

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#48 SoulSight

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 09:22 AM

I agree 5 opinions from StormHaven.
However, there are still some unfortunate factors that it's hard to control like Valkyrie set (75,85); element balance (no specific formula); X-spamming (unrestrictable) and blah blah blah
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#49 Homurasan

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 07:00 AM

element balance (no specific formula)

 

While I can oversee about everything you're writing by telling myself that it has nothing to do with me, math and computer science are two things I study and although I have little knowledge of both of them for now, I would like to ask you what you mean by "no specific formula". I'm... interested in your thoughts this time.


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#50 SoulSight

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 12:02 PM

To Homurasan :

For me, you are a passionately curious to know elaborately tiny stuffs in-game I admit. You are the way much more curious than I am but allow me to tell you.

To test a hypothesis, people have to analyze their data to draw conclusions through the experimentation and observation. To conclude accurately, researchers have to control as many factors as they can to gather 1 dependent variable or 2 at most, 3 is extremely rare (or even failed test)!

Non-Elemental damage variation is uncontrollable, how can you control to conclude the formula? I've never found out anyway.


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