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costumes to lose all their effects eventually


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#101 ZeroTigress

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 08:38 AM

...because the rest of costumes with no effects will be open for malangdo enchants. You keep talking like costumes with effects are the one and only option for all classes. Wrong. I certainly don't see many people defaulting lamps, or full moon, or dragon helm. Guess why? malangdo enchanted costumes are way more versatile, and they'll still be wanted because kro will keep developing new effects for them. I don't know how you can't see this.
 
To make my point clear, costumes that already have effects such as tarnished lamp shouldn't be enchantable, they should have their specific effects and that's it. The rest should all be malangdo enchantable, so you're free to wear whichever you want.


So where's the freedom in picking whatever costume you want if certain ones are locked out of getting enchanted?

"Sure, you can enchant costumes, but if you want to enchant the costumes on this blacklist, well, too bad you're out of luck!"
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#102 KiyokoHasami

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 08:42 AM

I dunno about you guys but I've been wearing my cute headgears with no stats. Most of the ones with stats are ugly.


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#103 1392140604170018137

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 08:45 AM

So where's the freedom in picking whatever costume you want if certain ones are locked out of getting enchanted?

"Sure, you can enchant costumes, but if you want to enchant the costumes on this blacklist, well, too bad you're out of luck!"


Because the ones with built in enchants are fine as is. That's the trade off. Removing the enchants across the board is a scorched earth approach. There might be a handful of contrarians like yourself who would insist on making a tarnished lamp malangdo enchant able but the majority of the playerbase would be fine just have a lot more options other than the 20 or so currently in game.
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#104 Campitor

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 08:47 AM

It shouldn't be happening at all in my opinion.
There's not going to be any true diversity and people will still look homogenized.
To me this just sounds like lazy practice instead of wanting to week through headgears one at a time.

I would like to believe less lazy and more realistic about time management versus benefit, and the associated risks of about 500 if statements. The goal is to future proof the NPC against all future updates rather than continue with what is ultimately a massive time sink for less benefit.
 

Or make an NPC that allows you to just clear a costumes of all enhancements AT OUR DISCRETION.


Actually one of the things I was planning to include was the ability to remove an enchantment from a costume. So that costume can continued to be used for cool looks even if better enchantments come out in the future.

 

The majority of iRO only things end up being terrible and I firmly believe this to be one of them.

Fun fact, if we followed kRO's original event plans as received by us for the many of the events from 2009-2014 all event items (including rewards) would be removed at the end of the event or if they are left behind they would lose all effects forever. We don't do that because.. well it seems like a real jerk thing to do.

 

 

 

 

Now for the plan that I would be thinking of for the future and the proposal I would send to kRO

Spoiler

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#105 Shiroi17

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 08:54 AM

What would be really nice.

 

Remove effects on all costumes

Having a way to convert costumes which had effects into enchantment stone with their effect (30% xp, 10 luk, etc)

 

Everyone wins.


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#106 ZeroTigress

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 08:57 AM

Because the ones with built in enchants are fine as is. That's the trade off. Removing the enchants across the board is a scorched earth approach. There might be a handful of contrarians like yourself who would insist on making a tarnished lamp malangdo enchant able but the majority of the playerbase would be fine just have a lot more options other than the 20 or so currently in game.


So what's your definition of a costume then? And why shouldn't all costumes be treated equally in that regard?

The bottom line is people are demanding exceptions to the rule under the mere argument they paid for it and that so much time has already passed. Which doesn't seem like good enough reasons from a game design standpoint.
 

Fun fact, if we followed kRO's original event plans as received by us for the many of the events from 2009-2014 all event items (including rewards) would be removed at the end of the event or if they are left behind they would lose all effects forever. We don't do that because.. well it seems like a real jerk thing to do.


Basically we wouldn't be in this situation if you had followed kRO's original event plans. Guess they did plan ahead after all.

Edited by ZeroTigress, 16 October 2015 - 08:58 AM.

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#107 Nirvanna21

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 09:30 AM

Then make so that you can extract the effect of a costume into a stone to enchant another costume. Like exchanging lamp into a +10 luk stone to be enchanted on any other top costume and so on. This certanly solves any problem with costumes variety and ppl would still search for the effect costumes.

 

This is a bad idea, just keep costumes with unique effects the same as they are.

 

If you can get a stone with +10 LUK, what is stopping people asking for +10 in other stats?


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#108 1392140604170018137

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 09:30 AM

So what's your definition of a costume then? And why shouldn't all costumes be treated equally in that regard?

The bottom line is people are demanding exceptions to the rule under the mere argument they paid for it and that so much time has already passed.


A costume is something that goes in the 2nd tab. That's it. Also it's not a "'mere argument" if people paid real money for a virtual item and then have said item drastically changed. You may not spend money to keep this game going but many more people do. What if GMs decided tomorrow that FAWs were no longer enchant able? Would you be making the same arguments?
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#109 Ashuckel

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 09:44 AM

This is a bad idea, just keep costumes with unique effects the same as they are.

If you can get a stone with +10 LUK, what is stopping people asking for +10 in other stats?


Because its a unique thing that comes from exchangig an event/cash costume with effect (aka fullmoon) into a stone that can also fail when enchanting. If there's a costume in the future with +10 dex for example, thats just retarded on its own, but nothing agains passing this status to other gear that u might like the looks more.
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#110 ZeroTigress

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 09:47 AM

Well now that we know that permanent effects on costumes is an iRO customization, I'm resting my case here. If what Campitor said is true, then that means kRO really did intend for all costumes to not have effects outside enchantments and that iRO's customizations on the system is what caused this whole situation to begin with. I wouldn't blame kRO if they refuse to help iRO get out of this mess that they themselves created.
 

A costume is something that goes in the 2nd tab. That's it. Also it's not a "'mere argument" if people paid real money for a virtual item and then have said item drastically changed. You may not spend money to keep this game going but many more people do. What if GMs decided tomorrow that FAWs were no longer enchant able? Would you be making the same arguments?


By your argument, I should ask for a refund on my Ragnarok DS items since they were made available to people who didn't shell out for the Ragnarok DS package. But it is what it is. The terms of service says that stuff is subject to change and that we all agree to it every time we log into the game. Last I checked, we don't truly own these items nor our accounts, it's all GRAVITY property in the end.

And yes, if FAWs were no longer made enchantable, I'd still be making the same argument that all costumes should be treated the same without exceptions. These are costumes we're dealing with, they're not supposed to have the same practicality as regular equipment. Otherwise why bother coming up with a costume system if it's going to function the same as regular equipment?
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#111 Campitor

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 09:55 AM

Well now that we know that permanent effects on costumes is an iRO customization, I'm resting my case here. If what Campitor said is true, then that means kRO really did intend for all costumes to not have effects outside enchantments and that iRO's customizations on the system is what caused this whole situation to begin with. I wouldn't blame kRO if they refuse to help iRO get out of this mess that they themselves created.
 
 

Please understand that you are reading too much info what I said. Not all costumes or their effects would have been removed under the event plans. Just some of them.


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#112 Necrohealiac

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 09:58 AM

Now for the plan that I would be thinking of for the future and the proposal I would send to kRO

Going with the blacklist method seems to be the best option for legacy costumes.
 
There would be two blacklists. 
 
1st Black List: Costumes that cannot be broken into enchantment stones. These costumes would be the ones coming from events. I would like for them to be breakable but I know that unfortunately it would be abused... a lot. So they would not be.
 
2nd Black List: Costumes that cannot be enchanted. These would be costumes that already have powerful effects in their own right,
 
Testing Needed: the use of the "can be refined" flag on costume headgears. There are no npcs that allow users to refine these items so if I can use this flag to white list enchantable costumes. This would solve a lot of issues, and remove the needed creation of the second black list.


question: why do you need to have the first black list? there's nothing wrong with keeping it to the malangdo kitcoin costumes only, if you want to keep things clean and simple. outside of the 3 enchantment stones you can get from sky mode wave dungeon, the malangdo kit coin costumes and the stones that you need to enchant them are 100% cash shop items and can remain that way.

if anything, the only blacklist required would be #2 you mentioned but as you stated you're exploring a possibility that would make it unnecessary for even that.

thanks for your thoughts on this matter.
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#113 Tkwan

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 09:59 AM

This is seriously BS. People buy costumes for the intended stats, with the knowledge that the stats will be remaining (supposedly) indefinitely. And now you want to screw the players out of their money they spent on the thousands of boxes to get the statted items they want? That is what is called FRAUD in the legal world.

 

This may be a game where you're free to make changes as you please, but if you decide to suddenly retroactively introduce changes to products that you had people spend real money for, you're getting into the realm of deep legal doo doo.

 

 

The only real way around this Camp is to take Zero's advice from a page ago. You give the option to remove the stats from the costume themselves if they want the enchantment on it. Then its their choice, and you are absolved of responsibility as they still have the option to use the items the way they expected when they paid for them.


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#114 WarlockFier

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 09:59 AM

I don't think the costume tabs are entirely restricted to 'costumes' anymore.. Only the garments and top 3 headgears overrides the look on the sprite, but the rest are really shadow gears. It's a shadow gears tab. :u Ask for a 3rd tab for the REAL costume? Costume to hide your current costume to hide your current gears!

 

Can't say these shadow gears/ enchanted costumes don't make people a lot of money though. Both WP and players themselves who invested in them. It is part of the economy now for the longest time.


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#115 Campitor

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 10:03 AM

This is seriously BS. People buy costumes for the intended stats, with the knowledge that the stats will be remaining (supposedly) indefinitely. And now you want to screw the players out of their money they spent on the thousands of boxes to get the statted items they want? That is what is called FRAUD in the legal world.

 

This may be a game where you're free to make changes as you please, but if you decide to suddenly retroactively introduce changes to products that you had people spend real money for, you're getting into the realm of deep legal doo doo.

 

 

The only real way around this Camp is to take Zero's advice from a page ago. You give the option to remove the stats from the costume themselves if they want the enchantment on it. Then its their choice, and you are absolved of responsibility as they still have the option to use the items the way they expected when they paid for them.

Please read: https://forums.warpp...ally/?p=2300911


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#116 1392140604170018137

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 10:04 AM

By your argument, I should ask for a refund on my Ragnarok DS items since they were made available to people who didn't shell out for the Ragnarok DS package.


Nope. That's not my argument. No one is taking away your items or changing their effects. Your argument here is that you're no longer a special snowflake.

Also FAWs are not costumes. Lol.
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#117 Tkwan

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 10:11 AM

 

I read that, but with the way I understood it with your spoiler, it sounded like you intended to remove all current bonuses and then make an option for the future ones only.

 

If I misunderstood, then I apologize of course.


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#118 Campitor

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 10:14 AM

I read that, but with the way I understood it with your spoiler, it sounded like you intended to remove all current bonuses and then make an option for the future ones only.

 

If I misunderstood, then I apologize of course.

All costumes with current bonuses would end up on The Black List starring Jame Spader, and not be enchantable.


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#119 Kupo54

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 10:19 AM

This is seriously BS. People buy costumes for the intended stats, with the knowledge that the stats will be remaining (supposedly) indefinitely. And now you want to screw the players out of their money they spent on the thousands of boxes to get the statted items they want? That is what is called FRAUD in the legal world.

 

This may be a game where you're free to make changes as you please, but if you decide to suddenly retroactively introduce changes to products that you had people spend real money for, you're getting into the realm of deep legal doo doo.

 

 

The only real way around this Camp is to take Zero's advice from a page ago. You give the option to remove the stats from the costume themselves if they want the enchantment on it. Then its their choice, and you are absolved of responsibility as they still have the option to use the items the way they expected when they paid for them.

 

 

Sir, this is an MMORPG...

any effect on any piece of gear will be rendered useless eventually.. whether they change the effect, or a better piece comes out. So don't take it too personal if the item you paid for with real money or zeny starts to rot in your storage.

 

Anyways I think this is a great idea might actually come back just to collect costumes and AFK


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#120 Myzery

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 01:23 PM

For goodness sakes, they're COSTUMES! They're not supposed to have any practicality outside of being decorative!

You talk about boring, we have so many people wearing same stinkin' Lamp and you think that adds variety? How does it add variety to the game when everyone wears the same costumes for the effects? Barely anyone wants to use costumes to individualize their characters out of fear of being unable to compete with those who wear effect costumes. If you were talking about regular gears, you'd have a point, but homogenization of COSTUMES is what the system has been crying for since it was first implemented.
 

And herein is my point exactly. Why would anyone buy any other costumes when most are already devalued by the few that have effects? What benefit does WarpPortal have to introduce costumes with no effects when people are more interested in costumes that have effects?

 

You're wrong because if they were not meant to have effects, they wouldn't exist with effects.

The lamp is just an example of a costume that is widely available. I don't see everyone and their mother wearing it.

It used to be that way, but there's various other things that have come out and it does give a bit of variety.

I know you have an old school approach to most things, but honestly these things are already here and the majority of the community has embraced it and spent effort or money to obtain them. 

 

It's just bad practice to remove effects and then force you to have some boring effect that you have to gamble to even obtain.

Either way, costumes still have effects outside of vanity.


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#121 kingarthur6687

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 02:56 PM

Just remove all the effects/enhants, this whole argument of trying to add and keep bonuses on god damn aesthetical improvements is a ginormous waste of everyone's time and completely flies in the face of the general understanding of what a "costume" (aka skins in some cases) is in the gaming world.
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#122 Myzery

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 04:17 PM

Just remove all the effects/enhants, this whole argument of trying to add and keep bonuses on god damn aesthetical improvements is a ginormous waste of everyone's time and completely flies in the face of the general understanding of what a "costume" (aka skins in some cases) is in the gaming world.

 

I would agree 100%, but the thing stopping me is that I don't believe that Gravity intended them from being purely for aesthetics.

People will always pay to get ahead even if it's a slight advantage.

WoE is one of the biggest things on iRO that drives people and costumes are disabled there.

At the end of the day I would like to see a ton of new costumes released that can't be enchanted like you mentioned.

 

Having the option to turn old headgear into costume would be cool. Even if it requires something from the Kafra Shop to do it, that would be fine.
I just don't want to see future boxes filled to the brim with costume pink hats, etc.


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#123 Necrohealiac

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 06:30 PM

WoE is one of the biggest things on iRO that drives people and costumes are disabled there.


costumes aren't disabled in WoE; they just don't show up on your char (so you can see what headgears someone is actually wearing).
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#124 Ashuckel

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 07:18 PM

costumes aren't disabled in WoE; they just don't show up on your char (so you can see what headgears someone is actually wearing).

Costume Mapple ftw!


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#125 Myzery

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 08:56 PM

costumes aren't disabled in WoE; they just don't show up on your char (so you can see what headgears someone is actually wearing).

 

Yeah that's what I meant, thanks for the clarification.

 

This is another iRO only change. The change was made to "reduce lag"


Edited by Myzery, 16 October 2015 - 08:57 PM.

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