217 replies to this topic

[ShinRyoma]

People cling too much to this muh effort things. We're still not there, but since other options to give Classic some breath are not being used, at some point you'll have to chose between being rewarded by all your effort and time or having someone to play with/against at all. Can you picture painting a meg with blood and naming it Wilson?
I know I dont own as much stuff as you guys but eventually we'll have to let it go. The items served you well for a good while. Is it really that bad to use Wilson only to pvm?

Edited by ShinRyoma, 23 January 2016 - 05:04 AM.

[rojoky113]

Considering this game is pretty much entirely designed to be a grind for levels/gears and a competition between players and guilds for high level items, it's a very valid and reasonable complaint for people who have put in those years of effort and competition to have. Especially on an official server that many people tend to play on in expectations of more stability and not having all their deleted.

 

It also doesn't make much sense to say "well they aren't implementing the better solutions so they should implement a worse solution instead of a better one." And not having people to play against can go both ways, because if you screw over those dedicated players and guilds that badly there is a good chance a lot of them are going to walk away.

 

Even if they still played after such a drastic change, they would have pretty much zero reason to ever log in except for woe. I know I wouldn't. What would they be working towards at this point? And welcome to most of the mvp scene going completely dead instead of half dead. Classic already has problems with being an active server, and you just removed the majority of incentive for end game players to even log in and play the game.

 

That all has financial implications for WP as well. There are better ways to address these problems.

Edited by rojoky113, 23 January 2016 - 06:46 AM.

[Rastaban]

 

Considering this game is pretty much entirely designed to be a grind for levels/gears and a competition between players and guilds for high level items, it's a very valid and reasonable complaint for people who have put in those years of effort and competition to have. Especially on an official server that many people tend to play on in expectations of more stability and not having all their   deleted.

 

People also have expectations that the server be run in a competent manner, and if for some reason it is not, that something should be done to fix it.

 

 

And not having people to play against can go both ways, because if you screw over those dedicated players and guilds that badly there is a good chance a lot of them are going to walk away.

 

And how many new players have walked away from this game because they're unable to compete? It's a lose/lose situation, but the GMs should act to rectify the mistake, rather than persist with the flawed mechanics that got us to this point (and will arguably just make things worse as time goes on).

 

Even if they still played after such a drastic change, they would have pretty much zero reason to ever log in except for woe.

 

You mean like the way things are right now? Increasing numbers of people aren't even logging on for WoE anymore.

 

 

What would they be working towards at this point? And welcome to most of the mvp scene going completely dead instead of half dead. Classic already has problems with being an active server, and you just removed the majority of incentive for end game players to even log in and play the game.

 

Disabling or neutering gods/mvps/minis in WoE would have that effect, yes.

That's why I recommend either deleting them entirely or a complete item/zeny wipe, followed by fixing (no way to increase) the droprates of mvps/minis/god pieces to VANILLA levels (0.01%, 0.01%, 0.08%), and reducing the number of available castles. If anything, it would cause MORE activity as people can still use the items as they were intended, so there will be a big incentive to hunt MVPs/minis and hold/break econs.

 

 

Edited by Rastaban, 23 January 2016 - 07:13 AM.

[rojoky113]

So basically, what you want and are wrapping in so many words is a server reset. At least a reset of anything significant.

A ton of people have walked away over cheating too and they still won't do jack about a lot of it for fear of upsetting what little player base they have left (thinking somehow that the cheating itself they are doing nothing about isn't already doing that), WP is not going to take a drastic gamble like that over a few posts on their forums saying that it would totally fix everything and the playerbase would totally surge back immediately to big numbers and be super active to cover their already paper thin financial ass over the inevitably huge fallout. People already voice big concerns over cleaning out duped and illegit gear over people who will quit because you deleted their stuff, and you want to delete all the legitimate and hard earned things that so many players have as well? Yeah GL with that.

 

Idk why, if people would be so active and motivated to go hunt mvps and minis and make econs for those rewards, that they aren't already when those things are much more realistic and achievable goals with the current rates compared to playing the lottery of default 1x rates. Sounds a whole lot like the "people will totally compete this time same thing won't happen, promise!" BS when talking about a server reset. It's not gonna happen.

Before you go and delete everything on the server that dedicated and paying players have worked years to achieve because you think it's the easy way out for the people it isn't dicking over to a huge degree, why don't you consider suggesting or supporting less drastic avenues like getting vanilla woes working (or even replacing one of our two if it comes down to that being necessary) and other more reasonable suggestions that have been pitched? Like I said in the seal power 2 thread, you can even have god creations through the vanilla woes so people can compete for their powerful toys on an even footing, before going into "full" woe to use them. There are ways to meet in the middle so new players or those that didn't compete well or at all aren't the only ones being rewarded and not screwed out of all their efforts.

The vanilla/unrestricted woe system for servers saturated with powerful gear has some precedents for working quite well, pretty sure one of the most successful and long standing prerenewal pservers does something very similar.

Edited by rojoky113, 24 January 2016 - 06:25 AM.

[weq212]

I'm all out of faith
This is how I feel
I'm cold and I am shamed
Lying naked on the floor

Illusion never changed
Into something real
I'm wide awake and I can see
The perfect sky is torn
You're a little late, I'm already torn, torn

[Xellie]

 

 

 

People also have expectations that the server be run in a competent manner, and if for some reason it is not, that something should be done to fix it.

 

 

 

And how many new players have walked away from this game because they're unable to compete? It's a lose/lose situation, but the GMs should act to rectify the mistake, rather than persist with the flawed mechanics that got us to this point (and will arguably just make things worse as time goes on).

 

 

You mean like the way things are right now? Increasing numbers of people aren't even logging on for WoE anymore.

 

 

 

Disabling or neutering gods/mvps/minis in WoE would have that effect, yes.

That's why I recommend either deleting them entirely or a complete item/zeny wipe, followed by fixing (no way to increase) the droprates of mvps/minis/god pieces to VANILLA levels (0.01%, 0.01%, 0.08%), and reducing the number of available castles. If anything, it would cause MORE activity as people can still use the items as they were intended, so there will be a big incentive to hunt MVPs/minis and hold/break econs.

 

 

 

tell me yfw guilds finally realize that they're not losing because of gods/mvps but because of an inability to use firstclass/non trans skills such as sw or spellbreak?

 

It's not the items that are causing the current guilds to not be able to "compete" it's their brains. And let me make it quite clear I have told them exactly what is going on, but they just get angry. God items, have minimal impact on WoE. Megs require the user to be within melee range, hammer bomb is (to me) just as deadly as normal bomb, brises aren't the degree of daamge or change that is make or break, that is just minmax bs and sleipnirs put the user at a disadvantage in 90% of situations.

 

Most mvp cards have a draw back or balance and most mvp cards only affect one player. Case in point, spellbreaker works on gtb.

stop. letting. me. recall.

 

If you enter woe with the mindset that you have to kill everyone to win/brea the castle, you're gonna have a bad time. It's not about that at all. It's about slowing them down enough that they don't break it in time. So if that one sinx gets through with gr/dr/gtb/etc, freeze them, fiber them keep everyone else facing the tell forward and move on with your lives and stop blaming the items.

 

And don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, because you damn well know I've played from the ground up vs this.

 

And yes. Valhalla did beat DC on chaos a couple of times without help from our allies. We also held off the entire mael alliance. So don't you go around spouting off how impossible it is to stand up vs numbers/gear. Just educate. Because even if allllll those items are disabled, the same people will win/lose.

 

[Xellie]

Yeah okay I just got 4 meg parts in a week on a 1 econ castle.

 

gg drop rates - that should NEVER happen. If you needed proof that defending in WoE 1 is useless, that's it right there.

[Rastaban]

So basically, what you want and are wrapping in so many words is a server reset. At least a reset of anything significant.

 

Gods/mvps/minis for sure, possibly all items and zeny, maybe even all characters too.

I'm not 100% sold on any one solution right now, and am always open to suggestions/criticism.

Of course more input from the community and GMs is obviously needed before anything is actually done. 

 

 

A ton of people have walked away over cheating too and they still won't do jack about a lot of it for fear of upsetting what little player base they have left, WP is not going to take a drastic gamble like that over a few posts on their forums saying that it would totally fix everything and the playerbase would totally surge back immediately to big numbers and be super active to cover their already paper thin financial ass over the inevitably huge fallout. People already voice big concerns over cleaning out duped and illegit gear over people who will quit because you deleted their stuff, and you want to delete all the legitimate and hard earned things that so many players have as well? Yeah GL with that.

 

Like Inubarishi already said, all the brainstorming and community feedback in the world won't matter if the GMs are too scared to implement anything for fear of being called biased.

 

Nor did I ever say my ideas would cause people to surge back immediately. Some may come back, others will probably quit. However, Classic will actually be able to retain new players, which is the difference.

Classic can't survive forever on a dwindling population of 20-30 somethings on a nostalgia bender.

 

 

Idk why, if people would be so active and motivated to go hunt mvps and make econs for those rewards, that they aren't already when those things are much more realistic and achievable goals with the current rates compared to playing the lottery of default 1x rates. Sounds a whole lot like the "people will totally compete this time same thing won't happen, promise!" BS when talking about a server reset. It's not gonna happen.

 

1x drop rates on god pieces/mvps/minis kept several thousand concurrent people entertained back in the pre-renewal Chaos/Loki/Iris/Ymir days, and they never had the problems Classic does with god/mvp/mini over saturation. Seems like a win/win to me.

 

 

Before you go and delete everything on the server that dedicated and paying players have worked years to achieve because you think it's the easy way out for the people it isn't dicking over to a huge degree, why don't you consider suggesting or supporting less drastic avenues like getting vanilla woes working (or even replacing one of our two if it comes down to that being necessary) and other more reasonable suggestions that have been pitched? Like I said in the seal power 2 thread, you can even have god creations through the vanilla woes so people can compete for their powerful toys on an even footing, before going into "full" woe to use them. There are ways to meet in the middle so new players or those that didn't compete well or at all aren't the only ones being rewarded and not screwed out of all their efforts.

 

Not bad ideas at all, but you're being idealistic, while I'm being realistic.

After all, you saw how the test WoE went where they tried and failed to remove gods/mvps/minis.

Our options at the moment are limited, half of it is due to GM negligence, half is due to iRO's capabilities being hogtied by client/code restrictions set by kRO. 

What I'm suggesting may be drastic, but it's doable, simple, clean, and fair.

Edited by Rastaban, 23 January 2016 - 12:26 PM.

[rojoky113]

 

Gods/mvps/minis for sure, possibly all items and zeny, maybe even all characters too.

I'm not 100% sold on any one solution right now, and am always open to suggestions/criticism.

Of course more input from the community and GMs is obviously needed before anything is actually done. 

 

A server reset is just not going to happen, for many reasons that have been rehashed a million times. A server reset where they have all the issues fixed beforehand still has a good chance of killing classic off entirely when you delete everything everyone on the server has worked for and many of them quit and then the server develops almost all the same problems anyway, and if they actually fix the issues the server can be turned around with deleting the entire thing anyway.

 

 

Like Inubarishi already said, all the brainstorming and community feedback in the world won't matter if the GMs are too scared to implement anything for fear of being called biased.

 

Nor did I ever say my ideas would cause people to surge back immediately. Some may come back, others will probably quit. However, Classic will actually be able to retain new players, which is the difference.

Classic can't survive forever on a dwindling population of 20-30 somethings on a nostalgia bender.

 

 

They are paralyzed about enforcing their rules against actual cheaters, and you think what they're gonna go do instead is delete all the legitimate gear of all the long term players on the server? And you think you're being the realistic one?

 

Those 20-30 somethings on a nostalgia bender among other players are whats keeping this server alive at the moment, and not only does the drastic measures you suggest not at all guarantee any significant number of new players, retaining of players, or financial benefit or security, it guarantees that you piss off a large portion of that playerbase currently keeping this server afloat in both gameplay and monetarily. I'm not sure you understand how suicidal an option that looks for this server right now from a business perspective, much less in how much of a slap of a face it is to the players.

 

 

1x drop rates on god pieces/mvps/minis kept several thousand concurrent people entertained back in the pre-renewal Chaos/Loki/Iris/Ymir days, and they never had the problems Classic does with god/mvp/mini over saturation. Seems like a win/win to me.

 

Classic is not old pre-renewal, in terms of both the population and it's size. This response fails to address in any way the point it's responding to, if everyone is going to compete so hard for these items why is nobody competing over them right now, when they are easier and more realistic to obtain? You are the one being idealistic here.

 

 

Not bad ideas at all, but you're being idealistic, while I'm being realistic.

After all, you saw how the test WoE went where they tried and failed to remove gods/mvps/minis.

Our options at the moment are limited, half of it is due to GM negligence, half is due to iRO's capabilities being hogtied by client/code restrictions set by kRO. 

What I'm suggesting may be drastic, but it's doable, simple, clean, and fair.

 

 

I think you have those switched. You want to sink the ship with an explosion and then build a new one more to your ideals instead of changing course. That is not the realistic option, it's a pretty nuclear one. Them being derps about one event woe over the holidays when they just want us to shut up for a few weeks so they can go home and spend some time off doesn't mean that they can't make the settings right when it actually matters, it isn't actually THAT hard to do even for them. Getting more than two woes running is the main hurdle right now, but even if kRO doesn't help them do that just replacing one of our current two is a more realistic solution than deleting three years of player progress on the whole server. That has a much better chance of just causing the server to close than turning it around at this point.

 

You say you are open to criticism and ideas but you don't seem to be listening to or addressing why what you suggest is not doable, simple, clean, or fair lol. Sorry you hate good gear, simply deleting it all isn't going to happen. 

Edited by rojoky113, 23 January 2016 - 03:40 PM.

[lxst]

• New World - pushing for a new client / server for classic (i know you are, just want to let you know we want it too) 
• KVM - properly implemented with no bugs or exploits and a promise of no badges available from boxes
• BGs - do something to make Tierra worth playing, (themes new bg?)
• MVP variance - i'd like to see some rebalancing of it slightly, having a 60 minute MVP with the same variance as a 12 hour seems really weird. It's annoying killing a bunch of short spawn MVPs and the long spawns are impossible to find because its the same group/person just killing it all week

• Pets: some pets still dont give the intended buffs

• Challenge Dungeon : are the difficulty vs drop rates on rare subject auras all proper? i know when we were discussing it originally camp, i think it was, suggested that it would either be higher drop rate but only drop one, or, low drop rate and drop for the entire party. as it is now it drops lower than card rate and only one (have not confirmed because i dont think anyone has gotten one yet)

• Camps new daily quest npc: soooo looking forward to this, or any other way of getting prize medals.

• WoE TE: <<< only real idea i can come up with to help new guilds start up/learn

• Content Plans: i know its early but any thoughts on a challenge quest or instance? kinda a challenge dungeon like thing? any way of perhaps getting one of the new world mvps? just thoughts. 

  Orc Hero Instance: looking for info on this. in particular what are the stats of the orc hero this instance spawns? and can it drop the OH card?

   

  (alot of this i pulled from posts about a year old. so if something was already put in/shot down/or whatnot let me know. ill be putting this list together weekly now, so if anyone would like me to add something pm me.)

   

   

   

  Life: i would like mine back at some point. but there's too much to work on here in rune-midgard!

• alternate option: just start a new server. then i really wont have a life. lmao.

Edited by lxst, 24 January 2016 - 04:55 PM.

[ShinRyoma]

Your good gear is going to be used only against monsters anyway because everyone will quit. Unless the staff use better methods you me and everyone have been suggesting. At least the reset/ woe changes allow woe to still exist. Yes there are better options. But this isn't a bad one, as long as you think about keeping fairish competition . Not only it will make it more competitive and bring new players/ stop making them quit, it may also get the server rid of bad players that rely solely on items. It's the dream, you know...
Unfortunately it's just a dream. It's not gonna happen, I know. 99.9% sure. But I still think it's worth suggesting once in a while... I wonder how some players would do without their precious op items, some of them granted by just being a member of a guild or another. Im sure lots of them wouldnt even play.
You know what dont mind me im just someone complaining over an internet game :3.

Edited by ShinRyoma, 23 January 2016 - 04:30 PM.

[Xellie]

you know if anyone in vh didn't earn their items they lose access. Gear and items are part of the goals that drive competition. Competition is fiercer with a prize.

 

It won't bring new players (not many) but it will drive many away, and deprive an official server of part of the status that makes an official server actual appealing.

 

now, if they would ban bad players that rely solely on 3pps and client edits on the other hand....

 

Suggesting players who have items are generically bad is not only wrong but down right insulting. You weren't here but we started on the same server at the same time as many of these people and guilds and had to fight them in order to make / earn said items. moot point.

[rojoky113]

Your good gear is going to be used only against monsters anyway because everyone will quit. Unless the staff use better methods you me and everyone have been suggesting. At least the reset/ woe changes allow woe to still exist. Yes there are better options. But this isn't a bad one, as long as you think about keeping fairish competition .

 

This is the same thing you already said and that I already responded to, I'm not even going to bother repeating myself if you aren't going to listen.

 

 

 it may also get the server rid of bad players that rely solely on items. It's the dream, you know...
Unfortunately it's just a dream. It's not gonna happen, I know. 99.9% sure. But I still think it's worth suggesting once in a while... I wonder how some players would do without their precious op items, some of them granted by just being a member of a guild or another. Im sure lots of them wouldnt even play.
You know what dont mind me im just someone complaining over an internet game :3.

 

This is all untrue, unfounded, pointless and unproductive BS that just makes you sound salty and unskilled tbh, not even gonna pull punches on that. Good gear concentration may not be equal but good gear is not exclusive to one player or group either, nor is it the only factor in a fight or the only reason people lose so try not to let QQing about it make you blind to that (see xellies post). So I will take your advice and disregard it.

Edited by rojoky113, 23 January 2016 - 04:56 PM.

[ShinRyoma]

If the prize creates a gigantic gap between older players and newish ones it's all pointless. It gives the game an expiration date. It's just too much of a prize, long term.

Players have an expiration date. The game itself doesnt need to have. At least not one that short.
I also wasnt implying good geared players are bad. There are good ones and they are well known, regardless of emblems.
Lets see if you can back me up on this: can we have ONE at least one single weekly woe in which we disable all that crap? Even without solving the real issues as you pointed (3pp, dupe blabla) it will have good attendance in just a few weeks. I swear to god I will no longer put a single foot on you adults woe. I might even stop posting stuff that apparently only make you angry/ uncomfortable.
Love you guys :3

[Xellie]

Ragnarok is an MMORPG, WoE is the accumulation of your power - your gains from PVM, MVP, financially, in pvp, in woe, politically, your skill, your levels..... Everything comes together. It's not an atmosphere where everyone is supposed to log in and be equal. You go out and you earn your things.

 

The idea that we should all be the same and based only on skill isn't the way it works. There should be a platform for that, but WoE it is not.

Edited by Xellie, 23 January 2016 - 04:57 PM.

[ShinRyoma]

Sorry Xellie, woe is the main goal if not the only for pretty much everyone i know. If I agree with you is like realizing this is not the game for me. Which would be sad because i really love(d) this game.
Im not ready to admit you're right. Lots of people arent.
I'll also not reply to personal attacks and offensive words, but I need to say it's funny to be called unskilled for someone who got beat in his main class by yours truly in my secondary class every single faceoff, be it in bg or pvp. 0 mvps/gods we're used. By me, ofc.
Inb4 rom's short memory disease

Anyway, do whatever the hell you guys want
Staff wont do -_- as long as money keeps flowing, not even against problems we all agree.
My friends keep playing, so do I. What can I do?

Peace

[Xellie]

Like I said, RO is a big world and definitely deserves content like that. But there are just as many people who play for the all-the-things and that is why they are here, on iRO and not an unofficial server.

 

So yes, we need content like that.

But we also need it's original content and function.

 

Plus these lil guilds who are close to making their stuff with the goal of using it in WoE. How sad will they be if the day comes and that is the day they can no longer be used in woe?

[ShinRyoma]

Mobile forum version is so bad

But yeah they can take away our almost ready gods (this isn't only me). Take my hard earned MP, GR, DR, OH, bryn, asprika, +9 items too. The very ones I only dreamed of 7 months ago when I used to get goat horns from the floor, when the map bots had to tp away and let them there.
All I ask for is ONE weekly event. Make it monthly,-_- it.
You dont need to MoBA the whole game:
There are more ways for a player to prepare himself to get an edge over enemies. Strategy, character building... I know quite a few players from different guilds that dont even bother to learn how to round status properly. And they have such an unfair edge because double belt/guild lent items...
Give this type of content ONE chance. I'll stop playing if it isn't succesfull. And I'll donate all my stuff to forum regular users. Print it.

[ClickyHpen]

this was ages ago in the thread, but camp come woe with IM! you'd have to be able to handle a little... colorful language, but you could see what life is like outside the alliance fight, though you'd probably have to slip in instead of announcing it.

 

also blah blah items aren't honestly that bad, and yeah, you can get around them with the right combo of things, but when it seems like everything's got a gr or some silly combo of things, it's just demotivating. i think that's why it comes up so often. you can earn them fair and square, or illegitimately, but either way it's not really fun to play against when you didn't get the right drops or farm enough cash to buy them. i could ramble for ages, but i don't have the time to really hunt for this junk anymore, nor do i think my friends do either. yes, RO is an mmo where you accumulate things, but how many people have time to accumulate things anymore?

 

then there's the balance discussions. dang man, those are intense and highly theorycraft-ish sometimes. or maybe they aren't? i can't even really tell, because people get sassy and i zzz out

 

sorry, i turned into the woe only player i used to sass. blame real life priorities :/ i just wanna fight some dudes with my friends for 2 hours a week (screw woe2) on the game we sorta grew up on. i've kinda given up on trying to change it.

[rojoky113]

Lets see if you can back me up on this: can we have ONE at least one single weekly woe in which we disable all that crap? Even without solving the real issues as you pointed (3pp, dupe blabla) it will have good attendance in just a few weeks. I swear to god I will no longer put a single foot on you adults woe. I might even stop posting stuff that apparently only make you angry/ uncomfortable.
Love you guys :3

 

It's not like this wasn't already the literal exact alternative solution I was offering that was a better idea than deleting everything, in this very argument on this very page..? You are acting like I haven't acknowledged that this is an issue at all just because I am not in favor of removing it all from the game entirely or detail reasons why that is a really bad idea.

 

 

Sorry Xellie, woe is the main goal if not the only for pretty much everyone i know. If I agree with you is like realizing this is not the game for me. Which would be sad because i really love(d) this game.
Im not ready to admit you're right. Lots of people arent.
I'll also not reply to personal attacks and offensive words, but I need to say it's funny to be called unskilled for someone who got beat in his main class by yours truly in my secondary class every single faceoff, be it in bg or pvp. 0 mvps/gods we're used. By me, ofc.
Inb4 rom's short memory disease

Anyway, do whatever the hell you guys want
Staff wont do   as long as money keeps flowing, not even against problems we all agree.
My friends keep playing, so do I. What can I do?

Peace

 

It was unproductive, untrue and spoken like someone being more salty and insulting than constructive, so I said it made you sound that way, cause it does. And in general, not in a way that was implying I think I'm better than you somehow. I'll actually readily admit I'm pretty average at pvp champ v champ I don't think I practice enough, though definitely not like you never lost either. Sounds like you have even more stuff than I do (I've been lazy about buying a DR) and I'm one of the more well outfitted members of my guild, so what exactly are you blaming the way woe is on? A couple double belted sinx and a gtb or two are far from the be all and end all of why people win or lose a fight, but it seems like it's a pretty easy excuse to point to.

Edited by rojoky113, 23 January 2016 - 06:33 PM.

[Xellie]

@shinryoma

 

if people are using megs and not rounding their stats looooooooooooooooooooooooooooool since megs give a X0 stat boost in singles or in pairs, that sounds more like an issue regarding basic character building.

There's no reason to be taking str from accessories in WoE other than megs.

[ShinRyoma]

I used Stats rounding as an example not to say : they're retards. You said it yourself, adding an hibram card to a bad player allows him to be impactful. I believe gods and other mvps do the same. or something close. Im saying tards shouldnt be so impactful, yet they can be. That's all.

[Xellie]

I find a lot of gods and mvp cards make bad players worse because they think they're god

 

see gtb/gr defaulting

[rojoky113]

At least if those high wizards that cast for half a year get a hibram you can still snap twice out of the way behind them and ask wtf before their SG goes off.

[zerowon]

At least if those high wizards that cast for half a year get a hibram you can still snap twice out of the way behind them and ask wtf before their SG goes off.

jokes on you bro hibriam was in storage today